LS90 or Silver dome trilam owners...

Ron Temple

In my Onk thread, I stated I noticed prevalent sibilance in the new rig when it's in a recording and on TV broadcasts. kuntasensei feels it's the tweeter combining with the Onk. Personally, I've heard the trilam on 90s, 50s, 35is and 55is and on my CS400i on my old rig and never noticed prevalent sibilance. I'm trying to track this down to the receiver or speakers.

What say you guys that either own the LS series or RTs with the trilam (silver dome)?

kawizx9r

I owned RT800's, RT1000P's, CS350LS and always had some sibilance.

Could be a combination of your AVR+speakers, but I've heard others have experienced it as well.

Something about those trilaminates...

Btw, you're only 40minutes from me!

-Freddy

Ron Temple

kawizx9r wrote: »

I owned RT800's, RT1000P's, CS350LS and always had some sibilance.

Could be a combination of your AVR+speakers, but I've heard others have experienced it as well.

Something about those trilaminates...

Btw, you're only 40minutes from me!

-Freddy

We'll have to do another local GTG soon. Did one 3 years ago here, then a dinner about a year and a half ago...or you can just come over and visit anytime, Freddy.

kawizx9r

For sure!

Been awhile since I've met up with some Polkies, last person being Chris (cstmar01).

Ron Temple

No other LS owners going to chime in?

leroyjr1

Are you using the amp in the onkyo or the Carver amp?

Ron Temple

leroyjr1 wrote: »

Are you using the amp in the onkyo or the Carver amp?

Carver is driving the LS90s, center and surrounds on the Onk. There was a hint of sib when I plugged the 90s into the HK, but it's very noticeable with the Onk if it's in the recording. I wanted other LS owners to chime in, since I really never noticed any with the trilams I'd heard. It sounds like there is. How much depends on the gear synergy. It's no biggie. I can tweek the Onk. Once the 2channel rig is setup, that's where the music goes except for concerts and MCH (and MCH doesn't sound sib).

vc69

Just saw this and it reminded me of your post in the onk thread. Sorry I took so long respond.:o

Perhaps I would revisit my Audyssey setup and check for other factors.

I would be intolerant of any sibilance in my rig for sure. I am very confident that I have none that I feel the speakers are responsible for. Keep in mind that I use tubes to drive my 90's when I listen to tunes. I almost never listen to music with my Onk.

Ron Temple

vc69 wrote: »

Just saw this and it reminded me of your post in the onk thread. Sorry I took so long respond.:o

Perhaps I would revisit my Audyssey setup and check for other factors.

I would be intolerant of any sibilance in my rig for sure. I am very confident that I have none that I feel the speakers are responsible for. Keep in mind that I use tubes to drive my 90's when I listen to tunes. I almost never listen to music with my Onk.

I probably need to ask on the Onk thread. I'm guessing that CDs aren't coming in on the analog connection, but through HDMI when in the Direct mode. The only time I know it's coming in analog is when the AVR flashes Multi. Under Multi there's no sib.

I've heard the trilams on 35is and 55is when we did a 2 channel GTG here a few years ago. We were using SS amps, SS pres, then tube pres and tube amps and I didn't hear any sib. Later I added the CS400i to the SDA combo rig and there was no discernable sib. I tried the LS50s here with no sib, on that rig. When I first hooked up the 90s on the HK, there was a hint of sib, now lots. It's got to be the Onk over HDMI. I'm thinking I can setup the Oppo's 2 channel outs in Zone 2 which forces analog and hear what's what. That will tell me if I need to invest in an upgraded HDMI cable. 2 channel is flagged as Direct on the Onk, so no Aud processing.

vc69

I wouldn't rule out the HDMI cable, but I would try somehow to bypass the onk's A/D/A or DACs in troubleshooting. Remember that even the analog inputs are (most likely) being converted. IF all the bits are making the trip through the cable, then the sibilance is being introduced within the onk is my guess. Trilams aren't the epitome of laid back, but they aren't sibilant or harsh by any stretch. I just don't think the 90's are the problem.

Aren't the inputs assignable? IOW... can't you tell the onk "when CD is selected-use HDMI1" etc.?

I used to have my CD input mapped to analog and my AUX input mapped to coax1 so I could A/B. (both in "Direct" mode) and even though the analog input was digitized, there was a difference.

Ron Temple

vc69 wrote: »

Aren't the inputs assignable? IOW... can't you tell the onk "when CD is selected-use HDMI1" etc.?

I used to have my CD input mapped to analog and my AUX input mapped to coax1 so I could A/B. (both in "Direct" mode) and even though the analog input was digitized, there was a difference.

I'll have to go over the manual again. I tried to assign analog to one of the other inputs (other than DVD/BD), but each input is a separate HDMI. With no HDMI cable attached, I've been unsuccessful getting that input to play over analog. It works with the DVD/BD input, but it defaults to HDMI except for Multi which defaults to analog. The Oppo is sending LPCM. I can disable Audio out on the Oppo HDMI connection. I tried it once and it didn't work, but I think I've changed things around since then. I'll have to see. The Onk has 6 HDMI inputs that can be renamed.

vc69

These effing receivers are complicated. I believe though, that the "multich" inputs are NOT digitized. This has been been discussed to death in the SE thread over at AVS. So if you are experiencing no sibilance with that input selected, then I think we can rule out both the trilams and the Onk's amp section. Gotta be in the processing/conversion or, perhaps a bad HDMI cable. Do you have a good coaxial digital cable to do an A/B with the HDMI input?

munk

Ron Temple;

Yes, I own LS 50's and sometimes there is a light air sound. Sibilance. I had to look it up.
But after reading this thread, I'm not sure if it's older source material related or not. A lot of my music was recorded 40 to 50 years ago in the studio by whatever was state of the art back then. A lot of it was pre 8 track tape.

There are newer recordings here, of course, and I'll do some investigation. If it is in the silver dome tweeters, then wouldn't turning the volume up without any music on produce the sibilance?

munk

munk

OK, I've got it too. I don't know if it's in the line or what.

vc69

Munk,
I believe you are describing tape noise or "hiss". It can be heard on many older recordings and is similar to the sound that comes out of your speakers when you turn your rig up all the way while nothing is playing.

Sibilance is different.

munk

Please give me a test to perform then. Thanks

munk

vc69

Perhaps the link below will help. There is a link (on that page) to a description of hiss as well.

http://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio/handbook/Sibilance.html

Ron Temple

Siblance is most noticed as the hard sss or ssstttsss sounds in voices. Sibilance is in all recordings and is dependent on the vocalist, the studio, how hot the mike is set, etc. A good setup will minimize sibilance. A wonky setup, some speakers, and (usually) entry level gear will make sibilance prevalent. It's something I've upgraded out of for sometime. Now it's back...sort of.

Kevin, I'll do some experimenting. I'm out of town for a few days. Sometime next week I'll work on it.

munk

OK, read it. (was much different than the online dictionary I'd used to look it up a few minutes ago.) I'm going to have to think about that. These are naturally occuring sounds. If there's anything I can do as a test please let me know.

Ron Temple

Sibilance is always there. The difference is whether it's hard and accentuated (bad sib) or natural (as if you are listening live or speaking with someone). If you haven't listened to a rig without it on the same material you hear it on in your room, you might never notice...or not.

munk

That's right, and that makes it subjective. But I grew up in the early 60's, and the little cheap stereos, and microphones we had then always had sibilance, it was just a matter of how much. You couldn't push the volume on those rack systems.

I dont think we'll be able to compare, but if you've noticed any change in your system, that means something.

I sure appreciate the education.

Ron Temple

Ok, got to play with things a bit tonight. Couldn't get the analog out for anthing with a 2 channel source, but did cut the treble -2dbs and it's liveable...actually on better disks it's more than liveable. The Onk just seems to be slightly biased towards the treble, without expense of the midrange and the bass department. In Multi, I listened to another DVD A tonight. Yes, there's a tad more lift in the SSSSs than I'd like, but frankly, this rig rocks. It's balanced, it's definied and it's loud. I'm more and more impressed with the overall result every time I put it through the paces. I'm just going to forget about this issue for a few days.

vc69

Glad to hear that Ron. I have high hopes for your impression of the 90's. Can't wait to hear what you think of them as grow on you a little. I am constantly impressed with mine.

That onk might just take a little tweaking and burn in.

Ron Temple

One of my impressions of the LS50s was a warm and rich midrange. I don't hear that so much from the 90s. It's more linear, a tad tweet happy, a balanced midrange with deep and defined bass response. I was expecting something more like the 50s with better bass. That's fine. The 90s put out a huge stage at volume, lots of air and separation, imaging is precise. The more I listen, the more I'm impressed. The sibilance is gear related and certainly media related. SDAs put out massive midrange, massive soundstage. It's a different experience. Some of that midrange detail the 90s can't touch. Hell, the SDAs can make commercials sound amazing, but I judged and still think the SDAs weren't near their potential in my HT room and the 90s are doing at least as good, sometimes better, in many cases. So it was a good purchase. The Onk as well, just need to do some tweaking.

kawizx9r

Hey Ron, what do you think about this weekend?

I can bring some cables over we can toss in your rig to try them out!

Let me know.

-Freddy

Ron Temple

kawizx9r wrote: »

Hey Ron, what do you think about this weekend?

I can bring some cables over we can toss in your rig to try them out!

Let me know.

-Freddy

Freddy, I'm out of town starting tomorrow, be back on Tuesday. Maybe next weekend.

Ron

vc69

Perhaps because I am a little older and my hearing at high frequencies is not what it used to be, I find the speaker to be a bit mid-bass heavy. Leaning toward muddy at times (I am being very critical here). I like the trilaminate tweeter.
I wonder if the crossover network could be reworked to improve the things we dislike.

BTW Ron, since I have been running a tube amp, I have begun a journey toward the quieter end of listening levels. I just don't seem to turn it up as much as I used to. It is quite a different experience for me. Tubes make things seem "alive".

Ron Temple

vc69 wrote: »

Perhaps because I am a little older and my hearing at high frequencies is not what it used to be, I find the speaker to be a bit mid-bass heavy. Leaning toward muddy at times (I am being very critical here). I like the trilaminate tweeter.
I wonder if the crossover network could be reworked to improve the things we dislike.

BTW Ron, since I have been running a tube amp, I have begun a journey toward the quieter end of listening levels. I just don't seem to turn it up as much as I used to. It is quite a different experience for me. Tubes make things seem "alive".

I doubt you're older than I am, 58. However, when I'm alone I still like to push it on some material. I like tubes, just too lazy and cheap to go all in on it. One of the reasons I like Carver and Luxman gear is that the highs are a tad recessed, sort of tube like. Many can't stand it.

20hz

Ron Temple wrote: »

I doubt you're older than I am, 58. However, when I'm alone I still like to push it on some material. I like tubes, just too lazy and cheap to go all in on it. One of the reasons I like Carver and Luxman gear is that the highs are a tad recessed, sort of tube like. Many can't stand it.

it may be my age also but I have grown to like the trilam over the silver coil just cuz that little touch of high end that I felt was missing especially in a center , I use ls50's as my satalites they are just so so so clean I think I will never get rid of them .
I have been building centers to my ears tuning, I know I would like my cs300 up there but I might as well put a zip code on it (its giant) .
I am going to try a cs350 and if it sounds better than my kef 100 I will pull the kef , but It will take a lot to convince me to pull the kef, the off axis alone is awesome on that speaker ..

Ron Temple

20hz wrote: »

it may be my age also but I have grown to like the trilam over the silver coil just cuz that little touch of high end that I felt was missing especially in a center , I use ls50's as my satalites they are just so so so clean I think I will never get rid of them .
I have been building centers to my ears tuning, I know I would like my cs300 up there but I might as well put a zip code on it (its giant) .
I am going to try a cs350 and if it sounds better than my kef 100 I will pull the kef , but It will take a lot to convince me to pull the kef, the off axis alone is awesome on that speaker ..

Enjoy them...I sold the 90s and 35s to another Polkie a couple of weeks ago and am back with SDAs and RDOs...it was the right decision.

55LS70

I have a pair of LS70's and perhaps I hear a little bit of silbilance, but only if I listen to it and quite frankly, I'm not sure if it's the trilaminates or the source material. Also, I drive these speakers with a tube amp and preamp and that might cut back the sssss's. One more thing, I upgraded the crossovers with Sonicaps and that was quite the improvement. I do believe there was some sibilance before I changed the caps, but after the change, about 95% of that was eliminated. Well worth the change.