Power conditioner and surge protector.

Gary RobertsonGary Robertson Posts: 201
edited August 2003 in 2 Channel Audio
Now that i am a true high end nut,,i think a wise moove for me is to purchase a surge protector..I don't get too much thunder and lightening here where i live but i should be smart and get one anyway- so should i get one with 100 joules or a thousand ?? and i am also interested in geting a power conditioner but i'm concerned that it will take too much away from the sound--also when the refrigerator comes on and off the lights in the house dim , then brighten..so what i'm asking is for all of you to give me some guidence--
:p
System #2
Yamaha cdc-755,(20 bit DAC )
Yamaha KX W382 cassette deck,
ADCOM GFA-545-II.ampfilier,,
ADCOM GFP-450 Preamp ,,BBE audio Restoration System (ARS)--Monster--M850I Innerconects and Monster 14 gauge speaker cable and the Fabulous POLK RT-7's with a Velodyne 12/15 subwoofer system ....she rocks.........
.............................
System #1:
Meridian 508-24 cd.(20 bit DAC)
Adcom -Gfp 750 preamp,
Bryston 14b-sst amplifier,
Martin Logan Prodigy Electrostatc speakers.and Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II innerconnects (rca) with Acoustic Zen Satori Shotgun speaker cable.
............................. "Jazz is democracy in music".
.............................
Post edited by Gary Robertson on

Comments

  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,480
    edited June 2003
    I guess i need a power conditioner...lol, When I crank the tunes the lights dim to the music, and sometimes blink! HAHHAHAHA! But I dont have the money to blow on a power conditioner.
    - Not Tom

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited June 2003
    The Tripplite LCR2400 is a real nice unit for $400. Not only does it have surge suppression, it also has brownout and over voltage protection. (output voltage stays the same whether the input voltage is too low or too high). www.partsexpress.com has them.
    madmax

    EDIT: VR3... A good power conditioner will make the problem you described even worse. Keep in mind that the conditioner keeps the output voltage the same and to do that it sometimes clobbers the circuit it is plugged into. It's purpose is to keep your equipment at the same voltage.
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,480
    edited June 2003
    Thank you for clearing that up. Less money to waste! :cool:
    - Not Tom

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited June 2003
    Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
    Thank you for clearing that up. Less money to waste! :cool:

    The thing is that if your lights are flashing then you really need a conditioner with brownout protection even though it will make your lights flash more.

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • Tour2maTour2ma Old School Posts: 10,176
    edited June 2003
    Originally posted by Gary Robertson
    when the refrigerator comes on and off the lights in the house dim , then brighten..so what i'm asking is for all of you to give me some guidence--
    :p
    One issue here is the condition of your circuit breakers.

    While they can weaken with age, the result of that is tripping below their rating. However, they can also corrode, and this will either cause, or deepen, the power dips you are experiencing. Fortunately this is easy to correct as they are relatively self-cleaning.

    All you have to do is:
    - shut off all your electronics, fridge, A/C, etc., be sure all stereo is off and not just in idle mode;
    - trip (open) all your indiviudual curcuit breakers, then the master breaker;
    - toggle the main breaker back and forth (close and open) a few times and leave it open;
    - with the master breaker open, toggle each of the individual breakers open/ closed a few times and leave them open;
    - close the main and then all the individual breakers one at a time; and
    - then go in and reset your alarm clocks, VCR, turn on the fridge etc.

    I do this about twice a year, or when I notice the A/C dimming the lights when it kicks on. Try it, it helps...
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
  • Frank ZFrank Z Polk-a-dweeb Posts: 5,967
    edited June 2003
    Originally posted by Gary Robertson
    also when the refrigerator comes on and off the lights in the house dim , then brighten..
    :p

    I have a lot of customers that have the same problem when their A/C starts. This is caused by the compressor pulling a lot of current (aka Lock-rotor amps or LRA) during start-up. A simple fix id to have a hard start kit installed on the compressor to assist the compresor during start-up and reduce the LRA. If your fridge is pulling enough current to cause the lights to dim I would also suggest that you invest in a service panel upgrade. Contact your favorite electrician or your utlity department and ask them to perfrom an Electrical load calculation on your home. Chances are your service is undersized.

    Undersized service panels, and/or undersized main breakers can wreak havoc with electronics of all types and can also be a fire hazard.
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
  • dan tdan t Registered User Posts: 206
    edited June 2003
    also when the refrigerator comes on and off the lights in the house dim , then brighten..so what i'm asking is for all of you to give me some guidence--

    I agree with Frank, you may have undersized service.
    Just curious, do you know what your wall Voltage is?

    I purchased a Monster HTS-3600 (only monster prod. I would ever buy) and I am happy with it. The Adcom GFA-7700 and Velo SPL-1200 get plugged directly into the wall outlets though, not the HTS-3600. When I am not using the system, I unplug both the Adcom and Velo from the wall outlets.

    I constantly keep an eye on the voltage readout with the system on and off. It fluctuates from 118-122 VAC. It's 6:40PM and with the pool filter, central air conditioning, and the Adcom GFA-7700 on, the voltage readout is 119-120V. Stable Voltage under some current hungary loads and no dimming of lights. I'll take it.
    Keep us updated.

    Dan




    Los Angeles - a strange and haunting world
    suggestive of a new and wild west
  • Gary RobertsonGary Robertson Posts: 201
    edited June 2003
    The voltage here is 117 to 120..i am vary happy with the sound of my equipment and i am little concerned about conditioners possibly taking too much away ad how mant joules should be for decent protector..-you guys are rieht tho. i will check all the breakers --i didn't know that..
    System #2
    Yamaha cdc-755,(20 bit DAC )
    Yamaha KX W382 cassette deck,
    ADCOM GFA-545-II.ampfilier,,
    ADCOM GFP-450 Preamp ,,BBE audio Restoration System (ARS)--Monster--M850I Innerconects and Monster 14 gauge speaker cable and the Fabulous POLK RT-7's with a Velodyne 12/15 subwoofer system ....she rocks.........
    .............................
    System #1:
    Meridian 508-24 cd.(20 bit DAC)
    Adcom -Gfp 750 preamp,
    Bryston 14b-sst amplifier,
    Martin Logan Prodigy Electrostatc speakers.and Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II innerconnects (rca) with Acoustic Zen Satori Shotgun speaker cable.
    ............................. "Jazz is democracy in music".
    .............................
  • pjdamipjdami Posts: 1,898
    edited June 2003
    Gary,

    I have been investigating this myself. The high end store here that I deal with recommends Richard Gray Power Company equipment. Every room I looked in yesterday, rooms with B&K, Rotel, Transparent, Martin Logans, B&Ws, Krell, Lexicon, high end stuff like you have ... all had Richard Gray Power Company power supply connected to the gear. I asked the Vice President of sales about Panamax and Monster power conditioners / surge protectors and he told me that they among other high end auidophile companies feel that these types of power conditioners take away from the music. Something about a MOV (metal oxide varister??) that causes this.

    He recommended that I look into the RGPC 400 MK II which sells for under $800. I was kind of skeptical, and he offered me to bring home a demo unit for one week. He also gave me a bunch of literature and reviews. I haven't tried it yet (afraid I might like it too much and then have to get it...I have other upgrades in the works right now so I don't really need this right now).

    The RGPC 400 MK II is an inductor / choke and acts like a capacitor to fill in the dips and absorb spikes like you may be experiencing. Lots to read on their website. Perhaps you can ask your high end dealer about them too.

    http://www.audiolinesource.com/index2.html

    Paul
  • Gary RobertsonGary Robertson Posts: 201
    edited June 2003
    Now "THAT" was the most "BITCHENIST" reply and very informative--i will look into this product and i will take it seiousley.Thanks again.. :)
    System #2
    Yamaha cdc-755,(20 bit DAC )
    Yamaha KX W382 cassette deck,
    ADCOM GFA-545-II.ampfilier,,
    ADCOM GFP-450 Preamp ,,BBE audio Restoration System (ARS)--Monster--M850I Innerconects and Monster 14 gauge speaker cable and the Fabulous POLK RT-7's with a Velodyne 12/15 subwoofer system ....she rocks.........
    .............................
    System #1:
    Meridian 508-24 cd.(20 bit DAC)
    Adcom -Gfp 750 preamp,
    Bryston 14b-sst amplifier,
    Martin Logan Prodigy Electrostatc speakers.and Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II innerconnects (rca) with Acoustic Zen Satori Shotgun speaker cable.
    ............................. "Jazz is democracy in music".
    .............................
  • jmierzurjmierzur Registered User Posts: 489
    edited July 2003
    The following two posts relate some of my power management experiences:

    Balanced Power

    Additions to BPT unit

    I also tried many units available locally, including the RGPC. Balanced Power for my entire system provided the best results. Try as many different power management units as you can to see what effect they have on your system. Keep us updated on your listening evaluations.
  • pjdamipjdami Posts: 1,898
    edited July 2003
    jmierzur,

    Interesting reads on your threads. Looks like you've done a lot of experimentation with this subject. I'm really interested too because I am heavy into Rotel gear and have LSi 9's as well.

    Also interesting are your findings with the HTPS 7000 like a veil was placed on your system.

    Didn't see anything about the Richard Gray products you demoed (unless I missed it). Do you remember enough to share your experience with us with RGPC equipment?

    thanks,
    Paul
  • jmierzurjmierzur Registered User Posts: 489
    edited July 2003
    I evaluated the RGPC 400 and 1200 units at several local audio stores. I also tried the 400 at home with my system.

    I did not find that it produced enough benefits for the price. Video was slightly improved. With audio, no noticable benefit was provided. On some systems at the audio stores, the RGPC unit had negative effects on the overall system performance.

    Based on my in-home testing, the RGPC was not moved to the short list.
  • pjdamipjdami Posts: 1,898
    edited July 2003
    Thanks jmierzur,

    I'll put Balanced Power on the top of my list for research / demo. I know that I can get the RGPC 400 for a one week demo from my dealer no problem.

    One thing he told me was that I would hear no audible improvement like you said but the picture quality would improve. Most people bring them back after the demo he says and then call back the next day and order one (sales pitch .. I don't know) because they notice how bad things get (relatively speaking) when the unit has been removed.

    thanks for the info.
  • bytemebyteme Posts: 73
    edited July 2003
    In the past two years since I've gotten back into 2 channel I went through many of the same searches for info on power conditioning. First off, I have learned that Richard Grey along with Monster, Panamax, etc. don't have a very good reputation. Monster, Panamax and other cheaper power strips and conditioners do generally use MOV (metal oxide varistors) to "eat" surges in power. Trouble with them is, they die a little each time they prevent a surge getting through and there is no way to tell when they are totally dead. So, eventually, you have NO protection. The other thing is, they add something that isn't needed to the chain. Gray uses a choke and is ridiculously overpriced, others use shunts or diversion to neutral ground (Brickwall/Zerosurge/newer Adcom). I used to have a brickwall and liked it. I've since replaced it with a PS Audio Ultimate outlet which didn't seem any different to me.

    The three things that have made the biggest impact for me are:

    1. Dedicated lines for audio (hometheater) system. I have two lines both 20amp with separate breakers and NOTHING else on that line. No more fan hum, buzzing from Halogen lights, fridge turn on, nothing.

    2. Keep your analog stuff on one line and your digital stuff on another. My main amp goes right into one outlet of a duplex on one line the other amps use a 4 outlet power box I made. I also have my preamp and receiver on this line. The other line is for HDTV, DAC & power supply, DVD player, Transport, Sat. box and cd changer. Ideally you should also try and isolate each digital component from each other, although this is more difficult unless your power strip is isolated (like a Tripp-lite Isobar)

    3. Get on ebay and pick up Oneac or other Isolation Transformer. I have two, a 2 amp CP1102 for my preamp (analog) and a 3 amp CP1103 for my digital side. Just make sure the stuff you're gonna plug in doesn't over draw the amp rating. Results are great and MUCH cheaper than anything else mentioned. These also provide surge protection and conditioning.

    If you really want to go nuts get cryo'd outlets and replace the wall and Oneac outlets with them. I'm in the process of doing that right now.

    I spent a total of $55 on the two OneAC units and sold everything else (Vans Evers Cleanline Jr. Digital, PS Audio Ultimate outlet, Brickwall) and have everything either behind the OneACs or directly into the wall or homemade power strip. My system has never been quieter or better sounding.
    Do or do not, there is no try...
  • Gary RobertsonGary Robertson Posts: 201
    edited August 2003
    I think i'll do just that--
    System #2
    Yamaha cdc-755,(20 bit DAC )
    Yamaha KX W382 cassette deck,
    ADCOM GFA-545-II.ampfilier,,
    ADCOM GFP-450 Preamp ,,BBE audio Restoration System (ARS)--Monster--M850I Innerconects and Monster 14 gauge speaker cable and the Fabulous POLK RT-7's with a Velodyne 12/15 subwoofer system ....she rocks.........
    .............................
    System #1:
    Meridian 508-24 cd.(20 bit DAC)
    Adcom -Gfp 750 preamp,
    Bryston 14b-sst amplifier,
    Martin Logan Prodigy Electrostatc speakers.and Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II innerconnects (rca) with Acoustic Zen Satori Shotgun speaker cable.
    ............................. "Jazz is democracy in music".
    .............................
  • pjdamipjdami Posts: 1,898
    edited August 2003
    byteme,
    I spent a total of $55 on the two OneAC units and sold everything else (Vans Evers Cleanline Jr. Digital, PS Audio Ultimate outlet, Brickwall) and have everything either behind the OneACs or directly into the wall or homemade power strip. My system has never been quieter or better sounding.



    I mean, I believe you that the dynamics are good with the dedicated power outlet and stuff because many of these line conditioners apparently affect the ability of sending electricity to the equipment. I noticed this on another thread I started with a cheap Monster Powerbar. The strange thing is the dynamics were affected at even low volumes like 80 - 85 db. I also noticed that I had to turn the volume up more with the powerbar as opposed to straight into a regular surge protector to get the same db.

    Did the PS Ultimate outlet or Brickwall affect dynamics this way? Why did you get away from them?

    thanks,
    Paul
  • bytemebyteme Posts: 73
    edited August 2003
    Originally posted by Gary Robertson
    I think i'll do just that--

    If you do, look into replacing the outlets in the OneAC with cryo treated Hubbell 5262 (15 amp) or 5362 (20 amp) outlet. I replaced the wall outlets and outlets & wiring in the oneacs yesterday and am really blown away by the results. It made a clearly noticable difference. No noise at all now, even with my ear right next to the speaker. Dynamics and clarity is better. So, for less than $200 I got both Oneacs and 5 cryo'd outlets from Virtual Dynamics. My digital is totally isolated from analog and things have never sounded better! Way cheaper and from my experience much better than any other solution I've tried.
    Do or do not, there is no try...
  • bytemebyteme Posts: 73
    edited August 2003
    Originally posted by pjdami
    byteme,





    I mean, I believe you that the dynamics are good with the dedicated power outlet and stuff because many of these line conditioners apparently affect the ability of sending electricity to the equipment. I noticed this on another thread I started with a cheap Monster Powerbar. The strange thing is the dynamics were affected at even low volumes like 80 - 85 db. I also noticed that I had to turn the volume up more with the powerbar as opposed to straight into a regular surge protector to get the same db.

    Did the PS Ultimate outlet or Brickwall affect dynamics this way? Why did you get away from them?

    thanks,
    Paul
    No, the PS Audio and Brickwall units are not power limiting at all and I didn't have to turn things up at all. In fact I noticed more dynamics not less. I got away from them because I found the OneAC solution for less money, better protection and most importantly better sound.

    I still have the PS Audio in the chain for my receiver and 5 channel amp. The 2 channel amp goes right to the wall. A better review of the Oneacs with the cryo'd outlets is here - http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=4012
    Do or do not, there is no try...
  • pjdamipjdami Posts: 1,898
    edited August 2003
    Wow dude, killer review.
    As you would expect, quieter backgrounds and more detail, but also, more emotion, more dynamics, more detail and clarity.

    That's exactly what I'm looking for. I don't want to sacrifice any emotion or detail with my systems with surge protection. I was researching some higher end Monster stuff but may want to try these relatively inexpensive options that you have presented first and let my ears decide. Based on your reviews, excellent presentation and meticulous attention to details I may just have to try it out.

    Man, we had a killer lightning storm here in southern La. today. I have never seen lightning striking so fast and close as today. I mean it seemed like it was just a few hundred yards away on a couple of times. Lightning was striking every twenty seconds it seemed for about 10 minutes. Flash of light and then the thunder almost immediately after. And I mean the thunder was rumbling my parent's house bigtime. I wasn't home for this event but fifteen miles away and it made me nervous to think about what could potentially happen. If I would have been home I would have unplugged everything, but unfortunately one cannot be home all of the time.

    Paul
  • bytemebyteme Posts: 73
    edited August 2003
    Originally posted by pjdami
    Wow dude, killer review.



    That's exactly what I'm looking for. I don't want to sacrifice any emotion or detail with my systems with surge protection. I was researching some higher end Monster stuff but may want to try these relatively inexpensive options that you have presented first and let my ears decide. Based on your reviews, excellent presentation and meticulous attention to details I may just have to try it out.

    Man, we had a killer lightning storm here in southern La. today. I have never seen lightning striking so fast and close as today. I mean it seemed like it was just a few hundred yards away on a couple of times. Lightning was striking every twenty seconds it seemed for about 10 minutes. Flash of light and then the thunder almost immediately after. And I mean the thunder was rumbling my parent's house bigtime. I wasn't home for this event but fifteen miles away and it made me nervous to think about what could potentially happen. If I would have been home I would have unplugged everything, but unfortunately one cannot be home all of the time.

    Paul

    Thanks! Oneac has some info on their web site - http://www.oneac.com/pdf/913407E.pdf - that outlines a bit what the power conditioners are made to do. They do everything all the other surge protectors do and also kick things up a notch or two by isolating everything downstream from them from the rest of the power chain. They also don't degrade (as MOVs do) when taking those small or large hits!

    If it would help I could open the Oneacs up and take pictures of what I did inside of them with the Cryo outlet replacement.
    Do or do not, there is no try...
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