Cheap Sound/Vibration

PerfectCreature

I was wondering if anyone has had any luck with peel and seal or frost king.
I was helping dad buy supplies at Lowes so he and I could do the roof before winter and stumbled across this stuff, it mentioned sound deadening and vibration deadening as well....just curious if this could be used in my car?
Cheaper alternative to the every expensive dynamat?

I was thinking of putting it where my trunk latch was, on the bottom of the trunk and the doors....maybe a few more areas as well....
Was just wondering if it would be worth it or not?
Thanks.
(I tried doing research but no one really has given solid good or bad)

chu

I wouldn't use any asphalt based products on a car ever.

Asphalt is inefficient than butyl rubber, extremely labor intensive (you will have to do multiple layers to get the same effectiveness of butyl based adhesives), the extra weight on the car, and the fumes are toxic.

So if you add up time + labor + material, you actually paid more to use something that is potentially deadly.

Here are a few companies you should look into and read up on:

Second skin audio (best stuff out there imo)
Sound deadener showdown (lots of good info here and also sells products)
Ramatt (bxt II only)
Dynamat (extreme only)

If it was up to me I would go with second skin damplifier pro, but damplifier will do fine.

And you will only need 25% target coverage, so you don't really need to do the entire trunk with the damplifier.

chu

I forgot about the stench and the messiness of roofing material.

PerfectCreature

So second Skin would be the best?
How many feet should I use on a fairly large car so I know how much to budget for this.
Thanks.

chu

I say second skin has the best products around, especially their pro lines, but their regular stuff is comparable and competitive to other competitors.

Also what are you trying to accomplish exactly? You want to stop rattles, kill outside noise, improve spl???

I have a fairly large vehicle and did full coverage on 2010 toyota tundra double cable. I applied roughly 2 shop packs 160ft. But I deadening everything that was metal in the interior: a, b, and c pillars, floors, inner and outer door skin, roof, etc. I also deaden my engine hood and added a layer of thermal block (awesome product).

I also used about 6 sheets of overkill and 2 sheets for overkill pro for the plastic panels and also added a layer of luxury liner pro over the dampilifier over the floor, doors, and roof keeping out road noise and such.

You don't have to do that though, according to sound deadening showdown (sds), you will only need 25% target coverage to see the most improvement. I really suggest you read that site and see what you want. And don't be shy about calling second skin, Ant is still working and he will still answer whatever question you have.

I do have some stuff left, and can unload them to you if you want just pm me.

chu

and how long are you planning on keeping your car?

PerfectCreature

I am saving up to buy this for the new car so that when I get it I can go ahead and do everything all at once. I will be buying a new car next summer/late winter.
I will be looking to achieve a higher SPL, and to lessen rattling so I do not have that "Tin can effect" with the trunk and the doors and such. Overall get any road noise to fade as much as possible.
As for the Second Skin, consider the PM sent.
Thanks.

chu

I still don't know what type of vehicle you're getting. Is it going to be a pickup, suv, mini van, and etc?

This is what tools you need:

A friend
A hand roller,
Fresh ventilated air
3m 90 spray glue
guerrilla glue
A heat gun
A metal scrapper to remove factory deadener
A box cutter or comparable sharp knife
Scissor to cut mlv on odd shapes
A friend (this is important that why I listed it twice cause its gonna alot of work lol)
Ratchet and screw drivers

CLV - damp pro (seriously best dampener ever)
CCF -overkill and overkill pro depending on your panels and dash.
MLV - Luxury liner pro (best option it comes with a layer of ccf so you don't have to buy overkill and apply it over damp pro before you apply the mlv. Also the thickness of the vinyl is a huge plus)

These products will cut out rattles, reduce road noise, and improve spl.

You can try their sludge and firewall product, apparently it works really well. I didn't try it, as I wanted to get everything deaden within a week by myself.

I could thrown in my hand roller as well as I have no use for it now.

PerfectCreature

It will be a car. I am looking for a car that has good gas millage as I travel everyday about 40-60 miles.
Gas is everything. It is about a 30 minute drive to and from....so you see why I would love a quiet car?
Anyway, I have a few friends that could chip in...weather they do it or not is another story.
Thanks for the advice....and you say it takes how many hours to do the car by yourself?

chu

PerfectCreature wrote: »

It will be a car. I am looking for a car that has good gas millage as I travel everyday about 40-60 miles.
Gas is everything. It is about a 30 minute drive to and from....so you see why I would love a quiet car?
Anyway, I have a few friends that could chip in...weather they do it or not is another story.
Thanks for the advice....and you say it takes how many hours to do the car by yourself?

I know what you're saying, I drive roughly 300 miles each day and a quite car with an awesome music is a must imo.

I would like to let you know, your fuel economy would drop a little due to the extra weight from the deadening.

A good 4 full days and a half from 8-10am (depending on mood) - 7pm. I took a few breaks here and there though.

PerfectCreature

Thats not to bad I guess.
And yes. It sucks with a noisy car. You have to turn it up and up and up.

MCCLIPSE

I vote for sound deadener showdown products. I've got some of his CLD tiles and some of that extruded butyl rope in my 08 Sierra and it worked like a charm and I spent minimal cash to do both doors. I've tried the Peel and Seal and it just kinda sucks, not worth the trouble.

bigaudiofanatic

That stuff at the store is going to make your car smell bad any day it gets warm. I would only use second skin, fat mat, raw mat, or my favorite dynomat.

PerfectCreature

Okay, well the car I bought is a 2003 Grand Am.
Not sure how well it is deadened but I know it was an option to get what they call Extreme Deaden in the vehicle...but I think it was only on the ones with a Monsoon Radio which my does not have.
Anyway. I will save up over winter....anyone done a grand am (4 door) how many feet would I need? I want it thorough, top bottom, doors and trunk...not so much about the firewall but I spot that up as much as I can. I figure I can put a deaden on the hood of the car as well to help with heat and such.
Thanks

hearingimpared

I'm very skittish about using any kind of tweaking product that wasn't designed for gear, speaker or auto noise damping. That's just me but others will disagree.

PerfectCreature

Well, if I can Dynamat my car to help reduce noise since I will be adding some performance parts and an aftermarket exhaust to it....anything would help.

hearingimpared

PerfectCreature wrote: »

Well, if I can Dynamat my car to help reduce noise since I will be adding some performance parts and an aftermarket exhaust to it....anything would help.

Dude that's its original purpose!;)

chu

PerfectCreature wrote: »

Well, if I can Dynamat my car to help reduce noise since I will be adding some performance parts and an aftermarket exhaust to it....anything would help.

dynamat does nothing for road noise only vibrations.

hearingimpared

chu wrote: »

dynamat does nothing for road noise only vibrations.

Eh, vibration = road noise, no?

PerfectCreature

Then what would I put to damper out the road noise AND the vibrations?
Thanks.

hearingimpared

PerfectCreature wrote: »

Then what would I put to damper out the road noise AND the vibrations?
Thanks.

According to the Dynamat Xtreme information it is used for reducing or completely eliminating road noise AND vibration. Where that other poster got the info that it doesn't reduce or eliminate road noise is beyond me.

Here's the FAQ section of their website. It spells out all the facts about road, motor, vehicle and vibration noise reduction.

http://www.dynamat.com/faqs_faqs.html#text3084anc

hearingimpared

chu wrote: »

dynamat does nothing for road noise only vibrations.

Completely incorrect! See link in the above post please.

sm88

Wool felt is the proper and cheapest method without buying some overpriced specialty product. Some online auto retailers sell huge sheets of it in varying thicknesses, it's fire retardant and has great dampening properties, especially as you go to thicker sheets.

chu

hearingimpared wrote: »

Completely incorrect! See link in the above post please.

dynamat does not block out road noise, only stop vibrations. Vinyl layers reduce outside noise from coming in.

hearingimpared

chu wrote: »

dynamat does not block out road noise, only stop vibrations. Vinyl layers reduce outside noise from coming in.

From Dynamat's website FAQs;

How does Dynamat stop road noise?

As a car operates, it generates noise. This noise is caused by the transference of energy (vibration) from the internal components and from the road to the chassis of the vehicle. The chassis (doors, floors, roof etc.) transforms this vibration into audible noise. Dynamat transforms the energy (vibration) into silent energy.

How much will Dynamat quiet my car?

Even a small amount of Dynamat can cause a profound noise reduction. For example, applying Dynamat to the doors of your vehicle can reduce road noise from 3-6dB!. Complete coverage of an average vehicle can reduce road noise 9, 12 even as much as 18dB.

Chu; where are you getting your data to have you convinced to keep making the same statements?

Jstas

hearingimpared wrote: »

Chu; where are you getting your data to have you convinced to keep making the same statements?

Welcome to my world.

chu

http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/

unless dynmat extreme comes with ccf and mlv on top of clv then yes it will block out road noise. The most (cost)effective noise barrier for a vehicle to stop road noise is mlv but it need to be decoupled with ccf to be effective.

When I deaden my doors with dynamat extreme almost 2 years ago, road noise was still go in and my music was still blaring out. Now my car is dead silent after I added ccf and mlv to the equation.

And the meaning of road noise to me is noise that is coming outside of the vehicle like tires, traffic, and etc, I don't count noise caused by the a sound system ie: vibrations and rattles as road noise. Yes, if you stop vibrations it will increase spl and etc since that noise isn't competing with your system. Anyways back to class.

Jstas

chu wrote: »

http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/

unless dynmat extreme comes with ccf and mlv on top of clv then yes it will block out road noise. The most (cost)effective noise barrier for a vehicle to stop road noise is mlv but it need to be decoupled with ccf to be effective.

When I deaden my doors with dynamat extreme almost 2 years ago, road noise was still go in and my music was still blaring out. Now my car is dead silent after I added ccf and mlv to the equation.

And the meaning of road noise to me is noise that is coming outside of the vehicle like tires, traffic, and etc, I don't count noise caused by the a sound system ie: vibrations and rattles as road noise. Yes, if you stop vibrations it will increase spl and etc since that noise isn't competing with your system. Anyways back to class.

Your idea totally negates the laws of physics. Audible sound does not pass through objects. It is reflected off of objects (i.e.: echos). The reason you can hear sound through your door panels is because the sound is vibrating the door panel at the same frequency that it is hitting the door panel. This causes the door panel to vibrate which moves the air on the other side of the door panel where you are. That vibrating air then, in turn, vibrates your ear drum where you brain translates that vibration to sound. Dampening occurs when the mass of the object the sound is hitting is too great for the limited energy in the sound to move adequately and transfer that sound.

Dynamat works by changing the mass of the object it is attached to and thereby dampening it's reaction to sound energy in the environment. If takes, say, 10 watts of power to vibrate the door panel and you add Dynamat which increases the mass of that door panel by 30%, it now takes, say, 13 watts to vibrate that door panel. That means that your 10 watts of power will now not be able to vibrate that door panel as much as it did before. It dampens the vibration. It doesn't eliminate it.

Dynamat, by the way, is made from butyl rubber and aluminum which is cheaper than the vinyl products. Also, add Dynaliner, made from polyether, urethane based foam and you get Dynamat Extreme with a material composition very similar to your linked materials. Dynamat Extreme is made from materials with similar properties to the close cell vinyl that you believe is the hold grail of sound deadening.

The materials your are discussing diffuse sound. They don't dampen vibrations because they do not add substantial weight to the door panel. At least not as much as Dynamat would add. They may tame resonances but they do so through sound diffusion. It's the same principle behind yelling with your hands cupped around your mouth versus yelling with a blanket over your head. The blanket doesn't add any mass to your vocal cords but it dampens the sound by diffusing the energy with air flow resistance. Slow the air flow down, you lower the energy of the sound. That's diffusion.

As far as "blocking" the sound, you already do that with the sheet metal of your car. That glass does a bunch of blocking too. But glass is rigid to the point where it's brittle. Most crystalline structures are. Rigid structures vibrate like a Chihuahua in Siberia. The also transfer sound easily too. They also reflect sound. Just because you can hear stuff inside and outside the car doesn't mean the sound deadening didn't work. If you're going to reference Mercedes or Lexus and so on concerning sonically non-transferring glass, look up the glass they use. It's laminated and framed to reduce vibrations and ensure an adequate seal around the glass from the weatherstripping to minimize air leaks.

Yeah, "back to class" is right. Why don't you pay attention to your teachers instead of regurgitating what some sales monkey or marketing flunky posts in a website about a product they are trying to sell you to bilk you out of your hard earned money. You might actually learn something that's not only true but useful.

chu

Jstas wrote: »

Your idea totally negates the laws of physics. Audible sound does not pass through objects. It is reflected off of objects (i.e.: echos). The reason you can hear sound through your door panels is because the sound is vibrating the door panel at the same frequency that it is hitting the door panel. This causes the door panel to vibrate which moves the air on the other side of the door panel where you are. That vibrating air then, in turn, vibrates your ear drum where you brain translates that vibration to sound. Dampening occurs when the mass of the object the sound is hitting is too great for the limited energy in the sound to move adequately and transfer that sound.

Dynamat works by changing the mass of the object it is attached to and thereby dampening it's reaction to sound energy in the environment. If takes, say, 10 watts of power to vibrate the door panel and you add Dynamat which increases the mass of that door panel by 30%, it now takes, say, 13 watts to vibrate that door panel. That means that your 10 watts of power will now not be able to vibrate that door panel as much as it did before. It dampens the vibration. It doesn't eliminate it.

Dynamat, by the way, is made from butyl rubber and aluminum which is cheaper than the vinyl products. Also, add Dynaliner, made from polyether, urethane based foam and you get Dynamat Extreme with a material composition very similar to your linked materials. Dynamat Extreme is made from materials with similar properties to the close cell vinyl that you believe is the hold grail of sound deadening.

The materials your are discussing diffuse sound. They don't dampen vibrations because they do not add substantial weight to the door panel. At least not as much as Dynamat would add. They may tame resonances but they do so through sound diffusion. It's the same principle behind yelling with your hands cupped around your mouth versus yelling with a blanket over your head. The blanket doesn't add any mass to your vocal cords but it dampens the sound by diffusing the energy with air flow resistance. Slow the air flow down, you lower the energy of the sound. That's diffusion.

As far as "blocking" the sound, you already do that with the sheet metal of your car. That glass does a bunch of blocking too. But glass is rigid to the point where it's brittle. Most crystalline structures are. Rigid structures vibrate like a Chihuahua in Siberia. The also transfer sound easily too. They also reflect sound. Just because you can hear stuff inside and outside the car doesn't mean the sound deadening didn't work. If you're going to reference Mercedes or Lexus and so on concerning sonically non-transferring glass, look up the glass they use. It's laminated and framed to reduce vibrations and ensure an adequate seal around the glass from the weatherstripping to minimize air leaks.

Yeah, "back to class" is right. Why don't you pay attention to your teachers instead of regurgitating what some sales monkey or marketing flunky posts in a website about a product they are trying to sell you to bilk you out of your hard earned money. You might actually learn something that's not only true but useful.

Sure thing buddy, dynmat extreme cost me more than what I bought at second skin. And the results is far superior than my previous install. And both times, I did a full coverage (firewall, doors, floor, and etc) and I noticed a significant improvement between my old install and my new one as this one is extremely quite. I know what works well in my truck and what doesn't.

Jstas

chu wrote: »

Sure thing buddy, dynmat extreme cost me more than what I bought at second skin. And the results is far superior than my previous install. And both times, I did a full coverage (firewall, doors, floor, and etc) and I noticed a significant improvement between my old install and my new one as this one is extremely quite. I know what works well in my truck and what doesn't.

I'm not disputing that, champ. I'm saying that your "reasoning", if you could call it that, is bunk.

Second Skin works. So does Dynamat. So do many other products and they all work on the same principle. Just because Dynamat costs more doesn't mean that the materials cost more. It just means that, like with many things (i.e.: Bose, Monster Cable, JL Audio) you aren't paying for superior performance, you are paying for the name.



Remember kids, stay in school!

PerfectCreature

Come on guys. Why must we bicker.
Ah, I will most likely buy some second skin pro, and some of thier mats and such to deaden my car up really nice.
Anyway, It is a project meant for next summer though...since I do not have the time or money to do it right now.