High end contradiction...
jaxwired
Posts: 201
Here's a mystery. It's generally agreed that the perfect preamp imparts no sonic signature on the signal. It simply passes on the signal with gain adjustments based on volume. YET, I read reviews all the time that talk about how a preamp "sounds". And yes, preamps are not perfect so they do impart a sound, but here's the contradiction, the reviewers usually are complimentary about the sonic changes the preamp adds. Commonly praising the various aspects of how the preamp sounds. Yet, the sonic signature of the preamp is just a sign that the preamp is not doing it's job well.
I will say that this is not always true. Sometimes a review will talk about the preamp's fidelity to the source and transparency, but more often than not the preamp is praised for how it sounds when it really shouldn't be adding a "sound".
I will say that this is not always true. Sometimes a review will talk about the preamp's fidelity to the source and transparency, but more often than not the preamp is praised for how it sounds when it really shouldn't be adding a "sound".
2 Channel
NAD C545 -> Benchmark DAC1 -> Bryston BP6 -> Bryston 4B SST2 -> Dynaudio Contour S1.4
NAD C545 -> Benchmark DAC1 -> Bryston BP6 -> Bryston 4B SST2 -> Dynaudio Contour S1.4
Post edited by jaxwired on
Comments
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Here's a mystery. It's generally agreed that the perfect preamp imparts no sonic signature on the signal.
Actually, that is true for every piece in the chain, from the source to the speakers.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Some preamps are neutral others aren't. Think of your system as several parts with the goal of being a single instrument. If you need a neutral pre based on the rest of your system, then go get it. If you need some tube warmth to temper some shrill speakers or edgy amps then rock on with the glow.
You're over-analyzing marketing crap. Who cares what a preamp's characteristics are if it sounds good in your system. I've had extremely neutral preamps that sound like **** and others that just blended with my system so well that I didn't even care about the technical crap anymore because all I could focus on was the music. Let your ears be your guide. -
Actually, that is true for every piece in the chain, from the source to the speakers.
I've never understood this statement. A good pre resolves details and reveals the sound stage to a point that meets the quality of the recording. A great pre takes the recording and you to a place you never thought possible. Doesn't that mean the pre sounds good?
I'll take great sounding music if that means sacrificing neutrality. -
Typically, the dream system is to reproduce exactly what was recorded in studio. You might like a piece of gear that provides you with a certain sonic signature but fact is what comes out at the final stage and then to your ears might simply not be the real thing (what it was met to be). Of course, soninc neutrality applies through the entire chain of gears, any piece that is not sonically neutral will NOT reproduce the real thing at the final stage.SolidSqual wrote: »I've never understood this statement. A good pre resolves details and reveals the sound stage to a point that meets the quality of the recording. A great pre takes the recording and you to a place you never thought possible. Doesn't that mean the pre sounds good?
I'll take great sounding music if that means sacrificing neutrality.
Cheers!
TKDARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life
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it's (almost) all about impedance matching...
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Typically, the dream system is to reproduce exactly what was recorded in studio. You might like a piece of gear that provides you with a certain sonic signature but fact is what comes out at the final stage and then to your ears might simply not be the real thing (what it was met to be). Of course, soninc neutrality applies through the entire chain of gears, any piece that is not sonically neutral will NOT reproduce the real thing at the final stage.
Cheers!
TK
Hmmmmm, I always thought the dream system was to make the music sound live and in the room? -
mhardy6647 wrote: »it's (almost) all about impedance matching...
This is a huge and often overlooked piece of the synergy puzzle. -
SolidSqual wrote: »I've never understood this statement. A good pre resolves details and reveals the sound stage to a point that meets the quality of the recording. A great pre takes the recording and you to a place you never thought possible. Doesn't that mean the pre sounds good?
I'll take great sounding music if that means sacrificing neutrality.
If it is "neutral" then it means the sound is exactly the same as what was played live. Nothing added, nothing detracted. It is not that hard to understand.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Unless you have a way to reference the source without going through a pre you have no way of knowing what the source's signature sound is. Therefore a pre can only be referenced to another pre. So it's perfectly valid for one to sound better than another without worrying about whether either one is adulterating the source.SystemLuxman L-590AXII Integrated Amplifier|KEF Reference 1 Loudspeakers|PS Audio Directream Jr|Sansui TU-9900 Tuner|TEAC A-6100 RtR|Nakamichi RX-202 Cassette
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If it is "neutral" then it means the sound is exactly the same as what was played live. Nothing added, nothing detracted. It is not that hard to understand.
How does a studio recording sound live? It needs a little healthier kick than a neutral system. -
If it is "neutral" then it means the sound is exactly the same as what was played live. Nothing added, nothing detracted. It is not that hard to understand.
This may be a stupid question, but how do we know how it was supposed to sound when it was recorded (or played live)? When the track is mixed, doesn't the gear (speakers, ect) that he is using to listen to it to make sure it sounds right 'color' the track as well?
I don't know anything about this, so I could be completely wrong. -
During studio recording everything is considered to make it sound lively, healthier kick as you say is simply not the reality and intent of original recording. Quality recording does not need kicking only poor recording needs to be colored or whatever else you may think of.SolidSqual wrote: »How does a studio recording sound live? It needs a little healthier kick than a neutral system.DARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
Straight source music = studio monitors = boring boring boring
Music is not about accurate reproduction, music is about music - nothing more or less.
The sooner you realize that the less you will care about what your preamp is doing.- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
SolidSqual wrote: »How does a studio recording sound live? It needs a little healthier kick than a neutral system.
What you are saying is you want to change the sound to what you like best. There is nothing wrong with that. We all do it.
If the equipment is going to do it then it needs to be in the form of some user adjustment such as tone controls. That way the sound can be tailored to your preference. Otherwise, the equipment should neither add or detract from the recording. Of course, the recording can not be adding or detracting anything either.
I feel one reason why we have so many debates over what sounds best is that we all have different criteria as to what sounds best. Good equipment is either neutral, or lets the user adjust the sound to what they think is best, rather than forcing a sound on the listener.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
cokewithvanilla wrote: »This may be a stupid question, but how do we know how it was supposed to sound when it was recorded (or played live)? When the track is mixed, doesn't the gear (speakers, ect) that he is using to listen to it to make sure it sounds right 'color' the track as well?
I don't know anything about this, so I could be completely wrong.
Not only that, but a lot of music nowadays is not recorded "live". They might do percussion one day, instruments another day and vocals a different day, or some variation thereof. So there never actually is a "live" version to reference to.
Even when listening to live music, it's going to sound different according to the listeners position. Not everybody is going to hear things the same anyway.2 Channel rig:
LSi9"s (modified xover's) & HSU Sub
Harman Kardon HK 990 Amp
Onkyo C-S5VL SACD
Music Hall MMF 5.1
Furman Elite 15
HT rig:
HK AVR-745 & Polk Monitor Series -
Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »Straight source music = studio monitors = boring boring boring
Music is not about accurate reproduction, music is about music - nothing more or less.
The sooner you realize that the less you will care about what your preamp is doing.
YES!!! Someone actually gets it. Enjoy your music Trey!:D Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2 -
That I fully agree, should I dare say the word equalizer :eek:What you are saying is you want to change the sound to what you like best. There is nothing wrong with that. We all do it.
If the equipment is going to do it then it needs to be in the form of some user adjustment such as tone controls. That way the sound can be tailored to your preference. Otherwise, the equipment should neither add or detract from the recording. Of course, the recording can not be adding or detracting anything either.
I feel one reason why we have so many debates over what sounds best is that we all have different criteria as to what sounds best. Good equipment is either neutral, or lets the user adjust the sound to what they think is best, rather than forcing a sound on the listener.DARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
That I fully agree, should I dare say the word equalizer :eek:
My feeling is we are going to start seeing more and more advanced equipment that allows for very sophisticated adjustment of the sound for any listening room. This is already showing up in HT equipment. Like anything else, it can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on how it is used.
Currently, we are in a hit or miss environment that requires a lot of experimentation to get a sound that is pleasing to the end user. At this point I am very happy with my 2 channel system, but it took a lot of equipment purchases and tweaking to get to this point.
Having gear that would do some type of spectral analysis of the room and adjust output to a known industry defined reference would provide a great starting point. Then the fine tuning could begin. Ideally, every component in the chain would have the ability to be adjusted to reach that goal. However, that might be a bit to high-tech for most people.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
YES!!! Someone actually gets it. Enjoy your music Trey!:D
That's right. Everybody else is stupid. Have a good day. :rolleyes:Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Oh good grief, not stupid just waaay over analytical with regards to the gear. But if that is what floats your boat rather than enjoying the music/movies...then go for it.
Trey & I will be enjoying the tunes instead.:pMarantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2 -
Oh good grief, not stupid just waaay over analytical with regards to the gear. But if that is what floats your boat rather than enjoying the music/movies...then go for it.
Analytical, anasmitical. You are talking to an engineer.
Believe me, I am very much enjoying the music. Currently I am listening to CD 2 of a 3 CD collection of Nicolo Paganini 6 violin concertos. Great stuff. Lady Gaga is next after another beer.
However, the backyard sprinklers are on now, and I am wondering if a noise cancelation device can be made to eliminate the sound of the water going through the pipes. That would help me enjoy the music even more.
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
I am wondering if a noise cancelation device can be made to eliminate the sound of the water going through the pipes. That would help me enjoy the music even more.
Volume knob always works for me....and letting the grass fend for it's self.;) -
LessisNevermore wrote: »Volume knob always works for me....and letting the grass fend for it's self.;)
Brute force and low-tech. Yes, sometimes that is the best way. Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Humm, not exactly the best for optimal enjoymentBrute force and low-tech. Yes, sometimes that is the best way.
;) Wasn't it what getto blasters were about DARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
I just find your comment kind of odd when so many on here spend extensive money on gear and even cables to have good SQ and when it comes to actually hear the music the way it was intended it seems to be irrelevant or over analytical. Personnally, I prefer to be a little analytical at the selection process and then purchase exactly what I want or need thus saving big $$$$ on upgradesOh good grief, not stupid just waaay over analytical with regards to the gear. But if that is what floats your boat rather than enjoying the music/movies...then go for it.
Trey & I will be enjoying the tunes instead.:p:cool:Straight source music = studio monitors = boring boring boring
Music is not about accurate reproduction, music is about music - nothing more or less.
The sooner you realize that the less you will care about what your preamp is doing.
As far as studio monitors, I find they too have their place for specific needs. Personnaly I own a pair for my portable rig and find them a much better choice than any computer speakers out there at this point and I definitely don't find them boring.
Everyone is chasing for good SQ and in my book, the most important factor for good SQ = accurate reproduction. If music was simply about music, the typical boom box (getto blasters) that were once so popular would still be favored today. Oh wait, it's been replaced by ipods and MP3s today. I guess you are right, it's only about the music no matter what the gear:) DARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
It's generally agreed that the perfect preamp imparts no sonic signature on the signal.
Horse hockey.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
DARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
No, it's bottom end.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
LOL, that was funny!
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Here's a mystery. It's generally agreed that the perfect preamp imparts no sonic signature on the signal. It simply passes on the signal with gain adjustments based on volume.
Don't know where you got the "generally agreed," as the preamp is one place above all else (besides the speakers) that you can mold the sound of your rig and music.
This thread has given me a nasty headache.
