Got my Polks in!

JoshParsons84

Well after what seems like forever I finally got my Polk DB12-2 hooked up and WHAT I THINK is tuned in pretty good. I've got my PDX 1000 watter goin to em and they're absolutely rockin! But I've got some concerns....I've set my gains on both of my amps to exactly what eveybody here has told me I should and my xovers ON my amps. Gains = 10:00 xover = 80hz (both)

My eq:
Band 1: +2 2.0 60hz
Band 2: -3 1.5 150hz
Band 3: -3 3.0 1kHz
Band 4: +5 1 10.0kHz
And both HPF/LPF on my head unit are both set on 80hz

I know that's a waste of time to y'all cause y'all know right off the bat what that crossover point is without me even tellin ya what each lil setting is set on but I dont so this is how I have to explain it. Now with those settings and I'm turnin the volume to 28 or 35 it's freakin loud but...the subs barely are playing. Now...I turn my subwoofer settings on my head unit to 15 those Polks absolutely rattle my trunk and they're amazing, way better than my SPG ever sounded. But just like when I had my SPG hooked up when it's hittin really hard the amp on the subs will shut off, I quickly turn the vol back down or turn my sub setting back down and it comes back on. Now my fathers got a Rockford Power 300.2 bridged goin to both of his T1 10's and it hits just as hard if not harder than my Polks and his **** never shuts off. This has been a problem since I've had my **** of shutting off like I've told you all. So..then I ask what am I doing wrong now? I want my sub setting to stay on 0 but it be hittin really hard. Also he turns his up to 21 and it's so ear piercing loud and the subs are poundin and his sub is set on 5. What the hell am I doin wrong this time? It's beginning to piss me off and if I can't ever get this **** right then there's no use in having it.

arun1963

Well, if the objective is to beat your Dad in the loudness sweepstakes, you're not going to do it with this sub. You can for a bit, but the the db sub will shortly end up like your last sub.

His two RF 10's can together handle more power and will play louder even on the same power. Get a 12" that can handle like 800-1000 watts rms. Then you can turn the gain up on your pdx and have it play real loud.

You can try crossing a bit higher and then turn the gains up a bit, but I think that wont satisfy you.

BTW what type and size of box are you using for the sub?

chu

How did you wire your subs? I suspect that you wired your subs incorrectly which is causing your amp to "shutdown."

You can also deaden your car, port your subs, and lastly add more power if you want added db.

arun1963

Shoot, you've got 2 12's. Should have read better. If you're running the db 1222's they are wired to 2 ohms and can handle 700 watts. Try turning the gains up a bit. Maybe between like 11 and 12. That should help a bit.

JoshParsons84

Arun my box is the Polk DB1222 loaded box. And Chu my box is wired up parallel for 2ohm. I think today as a matter of fact I might've figured out the problem all along. I noticed today that my ground going to my mono amp was not even plugged in! I thought Jesus Christ there's my problem right there I bet. So I unscrewed my ground pluged-in my wire and screwed her back in tight and my amp hasn't cut off at all with my sub setting on +15 so I think (hopefully) that that was it.

Arun, when you said should have read better what you mean? Is it because my amp is 1000 watts and the subs are 700? And another thing on my mono amp it almost looks like it's got 2 channels because it's got 2 plugs for wires. I've only got 1 set of wires hooked up right now and always have been...could that be where all my power loss is? Should that even be hooked up and if so how eg. hot to hot,ground to ground? Other than that I've been playing around with my eq and everything and still pretty confused on that. OK for instance Band 1 I understand is for where my ?subs? pick up? So then I've xover's of 40hz, 60hz and 90hz. Now how do I know what's a good cutoff point would be? I DO know I CANNOT put it on 40 and try to bump back up. Then like Band 2 has 100hz, 150hz and 200hz which is for ?midbass?. I know that I have to try each and every setting but a little knowledge on what I'm listening for and what the different numbers mean. Also something odd still yet is the curve. I've been reading tutorials like on JL Audio's website but still un-educated on this. I think starting to get there though

arun1963

When I said 'read better', I meant, I should have noticed that you were running the 1222. I assumed you were running a single 12". 1000 watts of power for 700 rms subs is fine. Your mono block does not have two channels. It just lets you connect two subs separately.

At your eq, 20-63hz is your sub bass, 80-200hz is your mid bass, 315-1.25khz would be your mid range and 1-4khz would be your upper mids and above that are the high frequencies, approximations for you to get an idea. It's important to know what each range sounds like.

Cut your sub and play range 1 and 2 flat. Pick the central frequency in range 3 & 4 and attenuate to the max on the widest q curve. Now you're primarily hearing your mid bass. Hear some material which you are familiar with and see how this range sounds. Try to play with each frequency in this range and get it to where you think it sounds right.

Now play the sub and try and blend your sub and mid bass. You're going for balance not loudness. Once you've done this, bring range 3 to flat and try playing in this range to get things balanced again. Now add range 4 etc.

Remember its about balance and not loudness. The better the balance the greater is the impact. Even if that means leaving your sub flat and turning everything else down.

JoshParsons84

Well...how about this? What about just as a starting point, EQ mine like how you've got yours and then I could fine tune from there?

pentoncm

I'd recommend leaving everything on your eq flat at first and only add or subtract +1 or -1 for each band. 2 max if you really want. The only reason to mess with the eq is to compensate for the problems with the acoustics of the car. By boosting 60hz you are going to lose punchiness in the bass and its going to be boomy and unrealistic, aka every voice sounds like James Earl Jones. Typically the 200 to 400Hz range will need to be cut by -1 in car doors because most speakers resonate in this frequency causing a boost which you need to neutralize. Too much midbass in this frequency hides midrange detail. Example if you listen to hard rock and the guitar has a lot of palm muting, there is alot of midbass and punch but it lacks clarity and detail. Basically you hide all of the harmonics of the midrange. I would suggest leaving the upper mids/low highs alone, boosting can make everything sound tinny. Highs, 10kHz or 12.5kHz boost 1 or 2. This in large depends on the mounting location of the tweeters, if they are low you need to boost more but by doing so you lose linearity. All in all an eq in the end is meant to get you a flat frequency response. In this case all pieces of the music will sound natural and full. The best way to mess with an eq is to play with it until it sounds like a good 2 channel system in your house. There is a reason why HT doesn't come with 5 or 7 channel eq's because in a room the response is fairly flat and only lows and ultra highs need adjusting.

Hope this helps.

JoshParsons84

OK 1 thing at a time first of all. I understand everything flat is +0 and attentuate (-) or boost (+) by 1. Is 60hz for the first band a good point or should I raise it? And why when I go to 40hz and bump back up to 60hz there's a real loud pop? Still don't understand that. And that leave it at flat?

OK do band 2 on 200hz? And attentuate by 1? And 1kHz for a midrange is pretty good right? Attentuate it also by 1? I'd like for my midbass to be punchy AND midrange clear and detailed as hard rock IS my primary listening preference. I'm still pretty fuzzy on the frequencies for the different bandwidths. E.G. what does 40hz mean and 90hz for band 1? Band 2? etc.

I think I'm starting to get a concept of understandment but I just still dunno

pentoncm

I wouldn't cut 1kz at all, leave that flat, cutting it is going to make your vocals hollow, what size are your speakers up front? If they are 6.5 you might be able to drop your crossovers to 63Hz. I recommend setting your speaker crossover from the headunit so you can get it exact but don't do this for your sub. I like adjusting the crossover on amps because what you want is output 1. and an up front soundstage. Depending on the sub, I know my db sub pulls to the rear if i set the crossover on the sub on 80 so I set it manually on the amp so it is probably around 70 Hz. You basically adjust the knob and move the crossover point higher and higher until you hear the bass being pulled to the rear, at the point take it back a little to the point where you have just about the same output but the stage is in the front. Some people like bass in the rear but if you were at a concert would you face away from the stage so the drum kit was behind you? No way, its awesome to have a system where it sounds like those little speakers in the doors are kick drums - thanks to properly adjusted crossovers. Also something to consider are the crossover slopes. 24db/octave is pretty steep, I prefer 12db/octave so that speakers and subs are blended more.

Try everything flat, then adjust one frequency at a time. I wouldn't adjust bands close to each other because they might overlap. Adjust somewhere around 315-400 Hz, -1. The midrange should be fine, and just do the highs then by +1 or +2 . The problem is that if you adjust one frequency too much you have to adjust another in the opposite direction to compensate and hear everything. Example, cutting 1kz by -2 is going to make it hard to hear lyrics and details so you boost the hell out of your highs resulting in an unnatural sound. You want a natural sound that is not too bright nor too dull. The best thing to judge is does the music sound natural?

arun1963

[QUOTE=pentoncm;1389060
All in all an eq in the end is meant to get you a flat frequency response.
[/QUOTE]

No. Flat works in a home 2ch setup. In a home environment, flat lets you hear the dynamism in the music, as it was being played and recorded. In a car, RTA flat doesn't work. In a car you need to balance the sound to hear the same dynamism.

JoshParsons84 wrote: »

OK 1 thing at a time first of all. I understand everything flat is +0 and attentuate (-) or boost (+) by 1. Is 60hz for the first band a good point or should I raise it? And why when I go to 40hz and bump back up to 60hz there's a real loud pop? Still don't understand that. And that leave it at flat?

OK do band 2 on 200hz? And attentuate by 1? And 1kHz for a midrange is pretty good right? Attentuate it also by 1? I'd like for my midbass to be punchy AND midrange clear and detailed as hard rock IS my primary listening preference. I'm still pretty fuzzy on the frequencies for the different bandwidths. E.G. what does 40hz mean and 90hz for band 1? Band 2? etc.

I think I'm starting to get a concept of understandment but I just still dunno

I still stand by what I said

pentoncm wrote: »

I wouldn't cut 1kz at all, cutting it is going to make your vocals hollow

I would cut here, because thats where your sibilance is starting. If you cut 1khz and the frequencies above were brighter then yes you would have the hollow sound. It's not about the impact of one frequency on your sound. It's about how changing one frequency affects all the others and hence affects your sound.

I'd cut the 1-3khz range and then bring the highs and 300-500 down a bit too. Restore the balance. There's a lot more happening when you factor in L/R intensity etc.

pentoncm wrote: »

its awesome to have a system where it sounds like those little speakers in the doors are kick drums - thanks to properly adjusted crossovers.

If you're really into tuning and you're hearing the kick drums at your mid bass drivers, you're doing something wrong. 63hz is very high xover point if your sub is on a 12db slope. It means you're hearing like 125hz from your sub. Way too igh if you want to preven localisation. Plus it would just kill your mid bass, making it nice and heavy and smooth......

pentoncm wrote: »

Example, cutting 1kz by -2 is going to make it hard to hear lyrics and details so you boost the hell out of your highs

Again, you don't boost the highs you cut them and the 300-500 and maybe a bit in your mid bass....

You're obviously an enthusiast and some of the things you mentioned were right. Just don't believe everything you read on various forums.

Welcome to CP.

arun1963

pentoncm wrote: »

All in all an eq in the end is meant to get you a flat frequency response.

No. Flat works in a home 2ch setup. In a home environment, flat lets you hear the dynamism in the music, as it was being played and recorded. In a car, RTA flat doesn't work. In a car you need to balance the sound to hear the same dynamism.

JoshParsons84 wrote: »

OK 1 thing at a time first of all. I understand everything flat is +0 and attentuate (-) or boost (+) by 1. Is 60hz for the first band a good point or should I raise it? And why when I go to 40hz and bump back up to 60hz there's a real loud pop? Still don't understand that. And that leave it at flat?

OK do band 2 on 200hz? And attentuate by 1? And 1kHz for a midrange is pretty good right? Attentuate it also by 1? I'd like for my midbass to be punchy AND midrange clear and detailed as hard rock IS my primary listening preference. I'm still pretty fuzzy on the frequencies for the different bandwidths. E.G. what does 40hz mean and 90hz for band 1? Band 2? etc.

I think I'm starting to get a concept of understandment but I just still dunno

I still stand by what I said

pentoncm wrote: »

I wouldn't cut 1kz at all, cutting it is going to make your vocals hollow

I would cut here, because thats where your sibilance is starting. If you cut 1khz and the frequencies above were brighter then yes you would have the hollow sound. It's not about the impact of one frequency on your sound. It's about how changing one frequency affects all the others and hence affects your sound.

I'd cut the 1-3khz range and then bring the highs and 300-500 down a bit too. Restore the balance. There's a lot more happening when you factor in L/R intensity etc.

pentoncm wrote: »

its awesome to have a system where it sounds like those little speakers in the doors are kick drums - thanks to properly adjusted crossovers.

If you're really into tuning and you're hearing the kick drums at your mid bass drivers, you're doing something wrong. You want the sound above your dash level. You shouldn't be able to localise your mid drivers or the tweets for that matter from the sound that you hear. 63hz is very high xover point if your sub is on a 12db slope. It means you're hearing like 125hz from your sub. Way too igh if you want to preven localisation. Plus it would just kill your mid bass, making it nice and heavy and smooth......

pentoncm wrote: »

Example, cutting 1kz by -2 is going to make it hard to hear lyrics and details so you boost the hell out of your highs

Again, you don't boost the highs you cut them and the 300-500 and maybe a bit in your mid bass....

You're obviously an enthusiast and some of the things you mentioned were right. Just don't believe everything you read on various forums.

Welcome to CP.

arun1963

Oops double post....sorry

pentoncm

Sorry, I mispoke when I said that I can hear kickdrum from the midbass drivers. That statement is a little misleading, kickdrum in general comes directly in front of you both above and below. If you do put your ear down by the midbass it does sound like the kickdrum is down there, but otherwise it is in general in front. i would have to disagree about 63Hz at 12db/octave, although there will be some frequencies higher in the 125Hz range they are going to be attenuated. At first when I tried with the headunit crossover I played with 80Hz and 63 Hz at 18db/octave. 80Hz pulls to the rear with this slope, while 63Hz doesn't pull backwards, there is a frequency dip in the response with my midbass speakers. So I decided to use both the headunit LPF and the amp LPF ( I can't disengage the LPF on the headunit). I set the headunit to 125Hz as high as it goes which is at 18 db/octave, and the amp LPF at 70 Hz at 12db/octave. In this configuration there is no rear pull.

Regarding sibilance I believe that this is highly driver dependent. It depends on the tweeter as well, what material, where the crossovers are for the component/coaxial system. I notice no sibilance on the my db components in my car. If i cut at 2khz it sounds hollow. I boost +1 at 12.5 kHz because without the boost I can't hear the cymbals clearly. With a +1 I can hear cymbals without making the response bright.
Cutting too many frequencies is bad because every frequency band has a slope so you are making a very uneven response putting in little holes by cutting multiple things. With a 5 band eq it will be impossible to get a flat response. If you want to cut tons of things or make it perfect you need more bands, ideally a 31 band or at least 10-13.

What you do with your eq is extremely dependent on speaker placement. My tweeters are in a kick panel low on the door therefore they need a small boost. If you mount your tweeters at ear level, you will likely need to cut. Same with the mids, its going to matter what angle they are mounted and the distance between the midbass and the tweeter. So if midbass and tweeter are positioned low in the door, depending on the speaker off axis response varies alot between speaker models. Some speakers are great and others plain suck. There are no general rules out there to cut or boost certain frequencies but there are some givens. Midbass should be cut a little unless you have an optimized sealed enclosure in your door. Highs (cymbals) mounted low therefore blocked by your leg will need a boost.

Also really important for subs, make sure your sub is in phase. If it is out of phase you will end up turning up the gain and boosting it when you don't need to. There is a switch on most mono amps and some headunits to do this.

JoshParsons84

My components up front are 5.25" Boston SX's

arun1963

Joshs thread is going OT. Sorry for adding to the confusion . Did you get your replacement tweet in?

arun1963

pentoncm wrote: »

Sorry, I mispoke when I said that I can hear kickdrum from the midbass drivers. That statement is a little misleading, kickdrum in general comes directly in front of you both above and below. If you do put your ear down by the midbass it does sound like the kickdrum is down there, but otherwise it is in general in front. i would have to disagree about 63Hz at 12db/octave, although there will be some frequencies higher in the 125Hz range they are going to be attenuated. At first when I tried with the headunit crossover I played with 80Hz and 63 Hz at 18db/octave. 80Hz pulls to the rear with this slope, while 63Hz doesn't pull backwards, there is a frequency dip in the response with my midbass speakers. So I decided to use both the headunit LPF and the amp LPF ( I can't disengage the LPF on the headunit). I set the headunit to 125Hz as high as it goes which is at 18 db/octave, and the amp LPF at 70 Hz at 12db/octave. In this configuration there is no rear pull.

Regarding sibilance I believe that this is highly driver dependent. It depends on the tweeter as well, what material, where the crossovers are for the component/coaxial system. I notice no sibilance on the my db components in my car. If i cut at 2khz it sounds hollow. I boost +1 at 12.5 kHz because without the boost I can't hear the cymbals clearly. With a +1 I can hear cymbals without making the response bright.
Cutting too many frequencies is bad because every frequency band has a slope so you are making a very uneven response putting in little holes by cutting multiple things. With a 5 band eq it will be impossible to get a flat response. If you want to cut tons of things or make it perfect you need more bands, ideally a 31 band or at least 10-13.

What you do with your eq is extremely dependent on speaker placement. My tweeters are in a kick panel low on the door therefore they need a small boost. If you mount your tweeters at ear level, you will likely need to cut. Same with the mids, its going to matter what angle they are mounted and the distance between the midbass and the tweeter. So if midbass and tweeter are positioned low in the door, depending on the speaker off axis response varies alot between speaker models. Some speakers are great and others plain suck. There are no general rules out there to cut or boost certain frequencies but there are some givens. Midbass should be cut a little unless you have an optimized sealed enclosure in your door. Highs (cymbals) mounted low therefore blocked by your leg will need a boost.

Also really important for subs, make sure your sub is in phase. If it is out of phase you will end up turning up the gain and boosting it when you don't need to. There is a switch on most mono amps and some headunits to do this.

If you wrote smaller posts, it would be easier to correct or agree;). This one will take up too much time. Seriously, some stuff in there is ok but a lot of it is forum hangover and stuff that you wouldn't do if the goal was competition grade sq.

Speaker placement is key, absolutely. Which begs the question as to why you have your tweets near your ankles?

A 5 band parametric equalizer will tune and set 10-12 frequencies. You should be able to hit a fairly good balance over these 12 frequencies. For the last time we are not going for a flat response.

Yes, sibilance depends on design, material etc etc, but for a given size, Brand A vs Brand B, the sibilance range is not going to vary more than like 10%. Brand A may exhibit more than Brand B but both will be in the 1.25-4khz range fopr your mi8ds and 7-10khz for the tweets. Most competition cars would have this range cut the most. THEN everything else is balanced around this. Speaker placement would dictate how much you cut by, but it would always be cut.

800hz upwards is also the range that is most affected by reflections. You're managing phase issues by TA, you're handling L/R intensity and peaks and dips of the driver itself by the eq. How are you managing the reflections? You'll never be rid of them, but you need to manage them to some extent. Cutting the 1-4khz range from your mids and then placing the tweets up high, away from the path of early reflections, seems a logical way of doing it. The best part is it works.

In my setup and I have left right eq control, this is how this range is set up:

1.25khz L -4db / R -8db
2khz L -8 db / R -4db
3.15khz L -6db / R -2db
5khz L -4db / R -4db


The sub is the only range that is running flat. Everything else is cut. 12 and 20khz are left open. The shimmer and top end of the cymbals are around 7-10khz. 12khz gives air to the highs. Of course, I can't hear the 20khz sine tone, but I can hear its impact on the frequencies lower down when I'm playing the music. So if everything below is balanced I can run 20khz 0/0.

Sub at 63 on a 12db slope just doesn't work for me. I hear enough from the back for it to be localised. Whats worse is that it messes up the balance in my mid bass. Makes it heavy and smooth. Remember I have a lot less of everything so the slightest change is going to be heard.

pentoncm

What exactly are you going for if not for a flat frequency response? If you do not achieve a flat response you will lose detail in areas. By flat frequency response I am not saying to leave the eq flat. I am saying that the eq is there to make the frequency response at your ear level more flat compensating for speaker position. By cutting multiple things that much the response is very unnatural. Cutting bands by -8 to -4 seems like overkill.

To tune the best way you would use an RTA and flatten the response curve, so I don't know what you have against a flat response. The curve should be boosted in the bass region and then should be flat from the midbass until the highs begin and then have a gentle roll off.

A five band eq can help but there just simply isn't enough customization or bands to properly adjust the frequency response.

Also, not everyone here is into competition and who is to say that how people do things at competitions is right for everyone. If someone wants to listen to their music for the details they will need a flat frequency response except for increased bass and a roll off on the highs. You're parametric bands are very close together, what is the q of your bands are they so sharp that there is no effect of each eq band on the other? By cutting everything above 1000Hz by so much you are in a way boosting the hell out of the mids and bass. It looks like your settings are made not for sq but for output, cutting upper mids and highs by -4 to -8 will make the bass very loud.

JoshParsons84

arun1963 wrote: »

Joshs thread is going OT. Sorry for adding to the confusion . Did you get your replacement tweet in?

Nope not yet...I'm thinking I'm gonna go with a different car audio man and go to a professional instead of a "shade-tree mechanic" and get my Polks installed. What do you think on the Polks?

JoshParsons84

Oh I'm sorry...I've got the DB's still NIB and un-installed

arun1963

pentoncm wrote: »

What exactly are you going for if not for a flat frequency response? If you do not achieve a flat response you will lose detail in areas. By flat frequency response I am not saying to leave the eq flat. I am saying that the eq is there to make the frequency response at your ear level more flat compensating for speaker position. By cutting multiple things that much the response is very unnatural. Cutting bands by -8 to -4 seems like overkill.

Ok, simple exercise. Listen to the sine wave tones for 20-20khz at your normal listening volume and eq setting. You're listening for the frequencies that sound much louder or much lower than the others. What are the loudest frequencies? How much do you have to cut them by? You're trying to get everything flat right?

pentoncm wrote: »

Also, not everyone here is into competition and who is to say that how people do things at competitions is right for everyone.

True, not everyone is competing. I'm not. But, I sure as hell want sound that would give a decent 2ch setup, a run for its money.

pentoncm wrote: »

You're parametric bands are very close together, what is the q of your bands are they so sharp that there is no effect of each eq band on the other? By cutting everything above 1000Hz by so much you are in a way boosting the hell out of the mids and bass. It looks like your settings are made not for sq but for output, cutting upper mids and highs by -4 to -8 will make the bass very loud.

I believe I've already mentioned this, in my setup everything is attenuated. The only exceptions are the sub frequencies which are running flat and 500, 12 and 20khz which are close to, or at flat. Running something flat, is boosting for me. I don't use a parametric eq, my hu gives me 16 frequencies for independent left and right setting.

Do the test tone exercise, let your ears tell you what you need to do to get a 'flat response'.

DSkip wrote: »

Between you and arun, given the opportunity to listen to either setup, I'd take aruns any day of the week.

Tks for the vote of confidence.