Recomendations Please!!!

Isolarc

Hi, many years ago I was what I would call an elite audiofile purist. Hehe!!! It's been a long time since I had the opportunity to pursue that way of life. 20+ years. Recently, I just bought a brand new 2004 Chrysler Sebring LXI Sedan. The factory audio system isn't real bad, but I think U know where I'm going here?

I want to for starters, to replace the standard speaker system, (6 speakers), but I'm not sure what is decent, & reasonable these days, for brand & price. I used to have a $10,000 Home system 20 years ago, but I'm not in the market for something that esoteric right now.

I'm familiar with Polk, Cerwin Vega, Infinity & a few others, that were hot quite a few years ago. I don't want those car "vibrators", I hate them!!! I just want a well balanced kick **** set of speakers, & then I'll worry about changing the Factory 120 Watt Amp later. After that, only god knows how far I'll go, replacing the reciever etc. I don't want something that sounds too bright, but has the range to get distinct in the HF. I do want something that produces well balanced, Low distortion in the base ranges.

I believe that My vehicle takes 3.5 front dash speakers, 6x9 Front & 6x9 Rear. The part of the audio that is lacking right now is the mid range, mid high, but the very high is plenty right now. I know, buy an eqaulizer! I will some day, but right now I just want to tackle the Speakers, & see what develops. Thanks!!!

P.S. The main idea here is this: I want something that has superb quality, & balance, over brain rattling volume! Something that has more than good "looking" specs. We all know that specs can be munipulated & deceptive. Thanks Again!!!;)

Jstas

How much are you planning to spend?

Isolarc

About $500 - $600, for the dash, front, & rear sets. Is that to low, to get something decent these days? It's for a 2004 Chrysler Sebring LXI Sedan. Not a Ferrari!!! Hehe!!! This is just the start, I'll eventually replace the amp, & the reciever also, but not just yet. Thanks!!!

Jstas

Well, budget is important because it dictates what kind of speaker will be recommended. Also, it doesn't matter what kind of car it is going into. The stereo can always be removed.

Also, since you want something that sounds good but you don't want a subwoofer, I am fearing that your budget will have to be blown because you are going to need some expensive speakers to be able to have the kind of sound quality you are looking for.

It would be good to know if you are looking for Polk speakers or do you just want speakers? Also, what are you plans for your future head unit (isn't really a reciever because it combines more than just an amp, pre-amp and tuner) and amplifier? There is no sense in recommending an expensive set of speakers if you are going to run low-buck electronics. Your stereo will only sound as good as it's worst component.

You have 6x9's and 3.5 inch speakers up front and 6x9's out back. Those are nice and all but for stereo imaging and such, oval 6x9's are not the best choice nor are they as accurate as a more traditional, round 6.5 inch speaker. If you were interested in taking on the challenge, I'd say to make some brackets to mount 6.5 inch components up front in the 6x9 holes and make a mounting plate to mount a dome tweeter in the 3.5 inch hole rather than a 3.5 inch speaker.

But judging by your approach, you aren't going to do that.

So, you have a dilemma. You are most likely going to go with the 3.5 inch, 6x9 solution up front and 6x9's out back. If you want to amp them in the future, you will need more than one amp or at least a 4 channel amp that is 2 ohm stable so you can wire the front 3.5 inch and 6x9 inch speakers in series on the front channels. Problem with that is, the 3.5 inch speakers will never handle as much power as the 6x9's so your 6x9's will be under-powered and sound like crap. But, that is a dilemma for future concern. Doesn't hurt to consider it now thought.

So, given all of that, I'd go with the EX series all around. The 3.5 inch speakers are rated at only 50 watts but the 6x9's are 100 watts RMS and 300 watts peak. The 3.5 inch speakers have a sensitivity of 89 dB and the 6x9's are rated at 93 dB. The 6x9's will play louder than the 3.5" speakers but if you cross over the 3.5's at say 6,000 Hz, you can probably crank them hard and get them playing up to speed with the 6x9's.

Something you have to consider though is the impedance tolerance of your stock amplifier. Will these speakers be too much for it handle impedance wise or not enough? You may end up buying all of it, head unit, amp and speakers, at once or nothing at all.

Isolarc

Ok, good thoughts! I do appreciate it!

To tell U the truth, I haven't considered these types of things for quite a while, so I'm glad to get some mental stimulation, on what I should think about! I will definately consider using 6 or 6.5" rounds in front. As far as amps, I will eventually bi-amp the system to match up impedence & power handling characteristics, of the various speakers in the system. I have had Polks in the past, & I believe that I recieved a good bang for the buck with those speakers.

The one thing that I'm not sure of is the amp?

Which amplifiers have the best Stability & Quality these days?
I don't think that Mark Levison, Bob Carver, or Hafler make car amps? Hehe!!! Infinity Reference Standard Speakers probably won't fit either. I was more into "HOME" Stereo audio years ago. Things have changed a bit, since the good old days.

Tell U what: Lets say that I was willing to spend $1200- $1500 on the whole thing. If it will require a little more money, tell Me how much "U" think it will take. Give Me your recomendations for a total system. One that covers the basically important points, of good quality sound & reasonable power, etc. I'm inclined to go Blaupunkt, or Sony for the reciever. Any other recievers that I should consider? What speakers do "U" think are a good bet without breaking the bank?

Other cionsiderations: Good speaker wire, Power Supply filtering, CAP. Not necessarily a completely discrete component system, maybe a somewhat more inclusive setup, or intergrated for the most part, except where U would think that splitting things up would be important.

Hell, shoot some brand names out there to Me. It's been so long, that I don't have a clue, about who has what anymore. Quality over Quanity, is what I'm looking for. It doesn't have to rattle the windows, "too much". I just want a good stable system, with some punch, that is more or less pure, & uncolored by individual components.

Tell Me what "U" think. Sell Me on what U would think is impoprtant, I'm all ears!!! My systems usually grow into monsters anyway, once I get some ideas in My head! I'll start out spending $800 only to spend $2,000 eventually. Shoot for $1500 max for now.

P.S. I hope I didn't confuse My purpose, even more for U? Hehe!!!

Thanks for your help!!!

Jstas

You haven't confused me at all! I'm glad you decided to nail down what your requirements are to make it what you want.

Mark Levinson and Hafler do make car audio gear. It's hard to find and for the price, they should stick to home audio because they are outclassed by thier competition that has been doing this as long as they have ben doing home audio. Don't waste your money and time. Car audio is a totally different story than home audio. In home audio, the challenge is understanding all of the equipment. In car audio, you HAVE to know more about how that equipment reacts in the environment which is constantly variable. It's much more dificult to nail down a sound and keep it consistent. If you speak to a car audio guy, he'll spout all kinds of technical stuff from crossover points and frequncy response curves to power ratings at 12 volts and 14.4 volts. In home audio, it's quite different because most of the crossover networks and speaker enclosures are already taken care of for you by the manufacturer. It's alot more involved than home audio. It kind of bugs me when I get the "holier than thou" attitude from home audio mavens who firmly believe that car audio is inferior to home audio and could never satisfy thier critical ears. It's aggravating. I think it is just them masking thier fear of being exposed as not knowing as much as they think they do.

Anyway, on to business! Some basic things I want to recommend. If you want a nice sounding stereo, you need nice equipment. However, you do not need to break the bank. You can get higher end equipment for mid-range prices if you shop around. That's not a problem though. Many people here know of quite a few places to get good deals on things. On top of that, throw out all the equipment brands names you know of from home audio. The major players in home audio have either said they are too scared to tackle car audio or are non-players in the market. I'm not kidding either.

So, I also hop that you are willing to take on some simple fabrication. If not, you can get items like this one from Crutchfield:

6x9 speaker adapter


This plate allows you to mount a 6.5 inch or 5.25 inc round speaker in your 6x9 inch hole. It also has a a spot where you can mount tweeters that go with component systems. I suggest going with this setup and using 6.5 inch components all around because round speakers are more tonally accurate than oval speakers.

So, my recommendations would be to get 6.5 inch MOMO components all around. They offer a very good bang for the buck, even if it is a few bucks. The reason I suggest component systems is because they are versatile. You already mentioned that you intend to bi-amp the speakers. If you do that, then you are going to have to modify a typical coaxial speaker. Not easy nor is it recommended even for an advanced installed. Reason being is that you change the characteristic of the speaker and it will most likely never sound the same. On top of that, some coaxial speakers share voice coils. Bi-amping isn't so easy. Additionally, there is a chance that your crossover network in your coaxial speaker would be by-passed by a bi-amping configuration and then you would be sending full range signals to tweeters that aren't designed to handle it.

Those MOMOs are expensive at 350 a set (2 tweeters, 2 woofers, 2 crossover networks) and they would end up costing you 700 bucks. But there are still those speakers in the dash. What I would do is get a set of dome tweeters. Can be any kind really. Build plates to cover the 3.5 inch holes and cut a hole for your tweeters in the center. What that will do is easy to see if you think about it. The MOMO components will be to the sides and in the rear deck. That will draw your sound stage backwards, behind you. That isn't where you want it. Since mid-range and bass are not as directional as highs, the components are fine where they are. But, highs are very directional. So, to draw your sound stage back in front of you, mounting small, 1 or 2 inch dome tweeters where the 3.5 inch speakers are now will put directional sound back infront of you and draw that sound stage back to where it is supposed to be. It seems silly but it works much better than you think it would.

Now you are probably thinking that you could use the dome tweeters from the components in those spaces. Yes, you could but, do I recommend it? NO! Reason being is, those dome tweeters with the component set are going to be pretty well matched. On top of that, they are running off of the same signal channel. If you place them too far apart, you will get sepertion that sounds totally unnatural. Your sound stage wil be up front but you will be able to localize even the bass due to the sound seperation caused by the distance. The ideal place to mount tweeter is exactly where a coaxial speaker mounts it. Dead center over the woofer. But that isn't always possible so we compromise. Yes, that will get expensive but, it's totally worth it.

As far as electronics goes, I'd recommend something from Kenwood, Pioneer, Alpine, Rockford Fosgate or Clarion. Blaupunkt really isn't what it used to be and Sony is not the player that everyone seems to think it is. Personally, it's a choice between Kenwood or Pioneer. But don't let my personal tastes limit your choices. What you want to look for in a head unit though is multiple pre-amp outputs rated at 4 volts or better. That is going to put you into a certain price range for your head unit and after a certain point, options are pretty much standard so you go with what you think looks the best. I wouldn't spend more than 400 dollars on your head unit retail though. I can find better prices though. Much better prices.

OK, now, amplifiers. There are many, many choices here. You have to 100% decide whether you are going to bi-amp in the future or not. It will make a difference on what amps you buy to start out initially.

If you are going to bi-amp in the future, I'd get a Rockford Fosgate 4 channel amp called a Power 551X. It does 70 watts per channel and is only 400 bucks retail. I can probably find it for just under three hundred from a discounter. Also, you will need a 2nd amp that is stereo for those front tweeters. You could also run them off of deck power if you want too. However, a good 2 channel amp for those front tweeters would be a Kenwood KAC-5201. It's 40 watts x 2 channels and most tweeters can handle that.

I have more but I'll let you digest that for now.

PoweredByDodge

After reading all of what john posted, I'll chime in which this...

1- i agree with just about everything he has said.

his front stage setup works well... however i'd think twice abotu biamping all those speakers -- its not absolutely necessary and it really ups the dollar amoutn on amps... i think a very good amp with very good speakers will eliminate the need to biamp.

2- i disagree on rears.

john states, and i agree, that minus a sub, you're going to have issues with bass - specifically not enough for most people's basic audiophile tastes.

although they are not as musically accurate, and although they are not considered "creme de le creme" by most audio 'guru's', i would suggest putting 6x9's in your REAR ONLY factory holes... why? well a 6x9 has something like 50% more woofer cone area than a round 6.5" ... this means more air movement... efficiency is usually higher ... more bass, less power (not really that important though with modern amplifier power)... but the good thing is then tat your rear stage is SIMPLE... just drop a 6x9 in there and you get that improved bass response but still retain the highs which can be adjusted to suit your tastes...

now here's a bonus with that idea -- pioneer's new decks have "FIE" front image enhancement -- its basically a low pass crossover at around 1k / 500 / 250 (selectable) hertz... this would allow you to in effect chop off the highs to your rears (if that is something you like) and use a very good set of 6x9's as a combination of 6x9 drivers and psuedo subwoofers... given that you have them firinginto the trunk (from the back deck) they would be decent 'free air' subs -- IF you got the right 6x9's -- for this -- i would reccomend ONLY the polk DB line -- they are preset for being biampable and i'm not lying when i say you can put 125 watts rms or more onto the woofer portion if it is crossed over properly and is nice stable power... then you have your choice what you want to do with the highs -- leave them disconnected, use a front image enhancer, use the highs like normal.. whatever.

sound quality bites the dust just a hair, but the improved bass response will be more than worth it i do believe... just my opinion.


far as brands

-- my pref's for decks --> Alpine / Panasonic / Pioneer / Clarion

-- my pref's for speakers (per your situation) --> SEAS (but i doubt you're going to want to deal with them... its kind of a 'build your own speaker' deal) / Focal / Image Dynamics / Polk DB / Oz Audio / Polk Momo

-- my pref's for amps --> USamps Vaccuum Tube series (yes tube amps still kick **** and these ones do 150 x 2 / 75 x 4 watts rms) / Cadance (might be a little to flashy for you - they're all orange cases -- but dont let flashy cosmetics make u think they're junk -- they're very good product) / Hifonics Zeus series / MTX Blue Thunder / RF Power Series ... yada yada yada on down the line.

-- my pref's for patch cables --> Streetwires... Streetwires... and Streetwires.

*scratching head*

you've got a lot of work ahead of you but you sound like you've got your head straight and I image with a little elbow grease that'll be the nicest sounding Chrysler product west of my truck.

PoweredByDodge

also -- if u see those speaker adaptor plates (as abov ein the pic) somewhere and u say "wow these suck they're really flimsy" -- dont belive your thoughts.

i've got an exact same set (i had 6x9 cutouts in my doors too) and i was like "man these suckers are FLIMSY" but once you actually mount a driver with a steel basket in them and screw it in with nuts&bolts, it is much more rigid... once its in the door, its almost as good as if the sheetmetal was cut directly to fit the speaker. i beat the hell out of my 6.5" component set and they have yet to rattle on me...

so for 15 bucks a set it really is a cake fix for that hole difference.

Jstas

"although they are not as musically accurate, and although they are not considered "creme de le creme" by most audio 'guru's', i would suggest putting 6x9's in your REAR ONLY factory holes... why? well a 6x9 has something like 50% more woofer cone area than a round 6.5" ... this means more air movement... efficiency is usually higher ... more bass, less power (not really that important though with modern amplifier power)... but the good thing is then tat your rear stage is SIMPLE... just drop a 6x9 in there and you get that improved bass response but still retain the highs which can be adjusted to suit your tastes..."

I only suggested the 6.5 inch speakers because of his desire to bi-amp them. If he were to go with that and he doesn't want boomb-boom, a good 8 inch sub in a single enclosure, sealed, with good power behind it would give him the low-end reinforcement that he is looking for but sacrifice minimal trunk space.

I was going to get to that but noooooo! You had to "chime in" and ruin it all for me!
:rolleyes:

PoweredByDodge

(points to self) <--- is a real stinker

hey what about this one -- rockford fosgate 6.5" free air subwoofers in the 6x9 rear deck locations ... and put 6.5" component set (woof and tweet on the 6x9 adaptor panel as u suggested) in the front doors -- and 3.5" in the top of the dash crossed over pretty high.

that would give good imaging with 4 speakers up front (least i think.. i dunno -- haven't thought about it that much but the gut feeling says its worth a try) -- and the 6.5" subs in theback -- hell those subs run off liek 100 w rms --- ... u could get like a 5 channel amp and run the whole damn thing (two 8 ohm 6.5 subs on the 5th channel).

Isolarc

Hmmm, this is getting interresting! I think U both have conviced Me to skip Bi-Amping. Ok, No Bi-amp! Stereo amp it is!!!

I like the idea of 6.5" in the front, using the adapter, & I think that I also like the idea of 6x9" in the Rear also. I'm not sure about putting small dome tweaters in the front? I think that "maybe" I should stick with a "slightly" more broad spectrum speaker for that? I don't want to seperate the frequency spectrum completely, from front to back. I feel that I should make a smoother transition from front to back. Shouldn't I try to keep a slighty more broadband spectrum, in force throughout the vehicle, from front to back? Educate Me on this please!

Also, Duh? What's MOMO? Sorry, but it's been a long time since I delved into these issues, & I have "allot" of green moss covering Me right now. I haven't followed the car audio universe, in many ages! Obvious isn't it? Ok, right now I'm leaning towards Pioneer for the head deck, based on Your recommendations. Also, does Polk make "all", or most of the speaker components U mentioned so far? I really liked My old DX9's allot!!! Good bang for the buck I think? I still have them, but I'm using them for My "cheap" home theater system right now. That will change sometime soon! Hehe!

Lets say that I stick to a more "conventional" system. Which amps do U think are the cleanist, & most reliable? If U can, fill Me in, on the various type of amps, & there potentials, & shortfalls, in different types of configurations, or systems. I do think that My amp should have allot of "extra" power availible! I think it is somewhat necessary to have allot of power, with some healthy dynamic headroom to spare, in order to achieve maximum clarity, & still have a healthy amount of punch at the same time.

My home system, of approx. (20) years ago, had 1200 RMS Watts Per Channel @ 8 Ohms, 2000+ into 4 ohms, with 2 db headroom besides. I had two stereo amps mono, one for each channel. Who needs Class A? I bought the power, not for extra volume, but for the sake of purity in sound repoduction. I could shake a building though, without hearing a sound! Hehe! My 20 hz. Sine Wave track running at 500 watts, tamed down the neighbors out of control parties, really good!!! It also really raaawwked, when I played a Sheffield Labs Percussion Demo album, or a digitally mastered 1812 Overture album, with 5 Hz. Canon blast, On My Cerwin Vega's! Fun!!! That takes BIG power, & healthy Woofers.

Anyway, back to the real world: U both have given Me some really good ideas to think about. I'll probably use a combination of both of your concepts for what I think will really be a very decent car audio system. I'm quite lame now, in that My car audio knowledge is somewhat limited at this point! I do however have a reasonably advanced knowledge of electronics, so I will be able to digest your ideas, once I re-familiarize myself with the various issues & concepts, of good car audio design. I hope!!!

I like the idea of having a evenly balanced system overall, & then maybe adding some LF reinforcement, or meeting other requirements that come up, later on down the road. Would I be able to maintain those possibilities, with the right amp/speaker combinations? See if U guys can narrow that down a little, with what I have said so far, like staying away from Bi-Amps.

Also, are there any particular magazines, or articles that U guys would recommend, that would help Me to get caught up in My knowledge of car audio, so that I could make a better assesment of what My needs really are? Right now, I'm like someone that has had amnesia, & I need something to stimulate My memory, of what I used to know, & learn a few new things, at the same time.

After that, I believe that I could hopefully hold a more focused & intelligent conversation with U guys, that is more on your levels of understanding, & knowledge in car audio technology. I do have a very respectable amount of electronics knowledge, but it is not specifically tailored, to the type of knowledge required in the car audiofile area. I understand many of the impedence, power, & frequency response issues, but I need some tutoring on how to apply that knowledge to the task of creating a good & balanced kick **** car audio system. In other words, I need your hands on experience! No Doubt! I'm statring to get a much better idea about what I will need, but there still is a healthy amount of fog over here. Heeh!

P.S. Thank You for taking the time, to help Me, "The NOOB HERE" out!!! Maybe, after I have gotten some good education & experience in this, I'll be able to apply some of My electronics knowledge, to help U guys solve some other problems, that require someone with "possibly" a greater raw knowledge in the electronics field. I would certainly be willing to help, where possible!!!

Thanks Again!!!:)

PoweredByDodge

(note the following statement assumes the listener has a sub somewhere) i'm a person who likes to have full range 'rear fill' -- others will insist that you only need a midbass driver in back... still yet others will even go so far as to say you only need a front stage -- 4 good speakers up front and nothing but sub(s) in back.

that's something you need to decide for yourself.

when you're sitting at home - listening to music... and you're towers are in front of you... do you like to have bass coming from behind you, nothing coming from behind you, or everything (only like half volume of the front though so as to retain good staging) coming from behind? -- answer that Q and you'll have a better idea of whether you want 6x9's coaxials / 6.5's coax or components / or 6.5(or 8") subs in back ... and what frequencies you want to run to whichever u choose.

thats the best i can tell u as far as education -- its not like science, its preference. for what its worth -- try balancing your factory system more to the front, then more to the rear, then even.... and crank it up as loud as it'll go before u start to hear distortion out of those fronts -- then, dont judge it on the loudness since your new speakers will do much better, but just judge it on staging, and find a point that u dig it. its not a great way to do it, but lacking another vehicle that's been done aftermarket for you to listen to, its a start. i think the home theatre analogy is a better one though.

Momo is an italian car customization parts manufacturer (and mfg of parts for ferrari's -- ie wheels etc)... polk licenced the momo name so as to be able to look cooler to young punks driving ricers (ricer = **** car with crappy 4 banger that goes 'pttt ptt pt pt ptttttt pt pt"). The Momo components and subwoofers were the replacement for the DX which were the replacement for the DB -- the new 'db' coming out in a month or two are not the same as the old -- stay very far away from them.

Polk makes a version of just about everything we've talked about -- however while I'd use momo components and a momo sub ... i would not use the new momo coaxials coming out (they're a downgrade according to the polkie representatives themselves.... something akin to the EXIII's or less). As I said before the only polk I really like are teh DB and DX -- thats about it. new polk sounds nothing like that stuff.

the absolute best amps you can buy are from companies like Adcom and Macrom .... they are partitioned amps, basically you buy a power supply section -- thats however many dollars... thenyou can buy up to 3 or 4 output sections and hook 1, 2, 3, or all 4 to that single power supply.

This enables you to buy a 150 x 2 output for your fronts, and a 75 x 2 for your rears, and a 200 x 2 for your front 8" subs, and a 400 x 1 for the 15" sub in back. and you can run it all off one power supply. actually i think the numbers i stated are a bit high for one PS, but i think u get the idea... these things cost a small fortune though -- couple grand.

for those of us back in the real world and on budgets, we're stuck buying one piece amps which are either going to be class AB, D, T, or Vaccuum Tube.

class ab is the standard -- its pretty clean, most coming in at well under 0.5% distortion (0.1 --- 0.005 is the usual range you'er going to find ab's in), come in 2 channel or 4 channel design, and virutally all are bridgeable.

class D is the 'wanna be' standard for subwoofer amps -- frequency range is not the full spectrum, they usually will only do something like 15 hertz up to 200 hertz ... and due to design canot play higher freq's... the good thing about them is super high efficiency... whereas some AB's might be 60% efficient, D's are going to be like 80 / 90 + so you get more bass with less current draw on the battery -- but wayyy less quality of sound, distortion can be 0.5% all the way up to 2%.

class T is what class D should have been -- its a full range version of class D playing freq's from 15/20 hz up to the 20 - 30khz range. its a different design, but not that much difft... they're a bit muddy in the middle frequency range, but these things do anywhere from 1,000 - 3,000 + watts with distortion FAR less than a class D (thd on a T would resemble a "mid grade" class ab... that 0.1% or a little better... 0.01)

vaccuum tube amps i am not very familiar with -- but basically they're using vaccuum tubes in their output stages instead of mosfets or other transistors... this provides what is a much cleaner sound... power output isn't as high -- but performance is usually much better and tube amps tend to have a unique and rich sound to them... milbert and usamps make pretty damn good ones... is regarded much more highly than the AB


for your needs, i'd say get some sort or group of class AB amps or Vaccuum tube amps... u can get two tube amps for around 700 bucks if u ebay them.

by the way u said u liked class A in home theatre -- tube = class A.

if you pick your parts wisely -- and then want to add subs later -- i dont see a problem with that -- however if u do that then you're not going to want the 6.5" subs in back you're going to want something more like john's original suggestion of components all around or something to that effect... that would more easily lend itself to being 'added to'...

a good car audio/elect website is www.the12volt.com but thats more of the nuts and bolts, which u seem to know already... honestly, this sounds dumb - but if you're got america online - go into the chat room "special interests-autocarstereos" -- there are people in there all day bantering back and forth about ideas on this that and the other -- most are braindead but some are quite knowledgeable.

other than that -- u know wha tu can do is head over to like a local shop and ask to see their demo-car(S)... or just hang out there for a while and screw with equipment on the wall -- look for heads that have controls that you like and are easy to use (as well as features)... look for speaker companies that seem to make a product that looks tough enough to be able to drop off a building (exaggeration) as opposed to the ones that have foam surrounds and see through cones (sorry blaupunkt...lol). circuit city, sadly, wont have any of that -- so its time to head out and find a GOOD shop and browse their stuff.

also -- try to find a car show in the area sometime this summer -- if u do, then u can head over there and listen to about 50 different systems in one afternoon....you'll get the total spectrum from pure sound quality geeks to guys banging out more SPL than a jackhammer on steroids.

on that note -- i've gotta get to my homework -- test in 2 days and i'm behind

Isolarc

I will try to take what U said, & then try to define more accurately what I am looking to achieve:

First off, before I do that, I would like to say that U guy's have given Me a fair amount to think about. I wasn't much of an "CAR" audiofile years ago, or now for that matter. Home Stereophonics is a hell of allot different animal then car audio aucoustics. U have convinced me of that without a doubt! I always knew that they were different, but so very many things have evolved in car audio, that I realize there are things about car audio, that I never gave much thought too. Years ago, I think that the car audio soundstage details were quite neglected, compared to this present time period.

On your first point about sound staging: I would like to attempt to recreate the original recording sound stage, has much as is possible, or is practical. That usauly would put an emphisis on the front, but in a car of course, we have more to deal with than just the front.

On your second point about amps: I like that!!! The idea of being able to component the system, & expand accordingly. I think that would give Me more control, in supplying individual speaker systems with what is required for good solid balanced sound. I will probably stick with Class AB Advanced Mosfet transistor amps, for most of it.

I don't believe in using too narrow of a bandwith for powering the subs, because if U do that U take away some of the high frequency harmonics necessary, to produce sharp crisp bass pedal notes etc. Even low sounds, need some of the higher harmonics to sound good. A bass pedal drum produces much more than just the very LF spectrum. I suppose that is why there were crossover wars years ago, Hehe!!! That Class T sounds interesting, I'll check into that technology to learn more about that method of amplification. I believe that it is a more refined version of class B somehow. A guess?

Tube amps I know to be popular, because of their rich harmonics, which makes the sound more natural, of course this is at the expense of efficiency, & some extra distortion, but not the kind we tend to hear. Now a Class A biased tube system would be different, quite a bit cleaner sound, but allot more heat & low power output for the buck. Tubes can be run in various Class configurations, just like transistors. I know this from My Radio electronics experience. I've worked on a few Radio Freq. tube amplifiers. They sound great, but they produce some 3rd. harmonics, which can be undesirable in radio freq transmisions. Now a days tube power is very well implimented. In audio amps, tubes are mostly used for Class A amplification for the reasons we all love. I didn't realize, that these days they were using tube amps for car audio that much?

I will take your advice about checking out some car shows etc. I'm just so dam ignornant about this stuff right now, that I'm a little impatient to get "all" the right answers handed to Me. I'll try do some more research on My own, & get back to U guy's "after" I have done some homework. Then I'll present My idea of a plan, & get your's & others feedback about it, to tweak out My thinking. Also, thanks for the link! I just need to get My A__ in gear to educate myself more.

BTW, the systems that U have, sound similar to what I'm looking for, with maybe a few tweaks. I don't want to spend a million on this thing, but I do want something that has some balls, & crystal clear sound reproduction. I will also want something that has a dam good tuner in it too. Too bad so many radio staioins have resorted using crappy studio systems these days. I don't see too many using "High Quality" Logrythmic Expanders. Talk about some sound!!! I think I spelled that wrong?

One more thing: Do U think that some of the newer head systems out there, can interface with My in steering wheel controls? I have an up down, & middle button on both sides of My steering wheel. Would be nice if I could still use them for a new system.

Once again, thanks for both of U guy's help, now I just need to kick "myself" in the butt, get some knowledge. I'll let U know when I have a plan, so U can critque it.

Thanks!!!

PoweredByDodge

regaring steering buttons --> i dont know about mopar stuff (well i should i've got 2 in the yard, but i dont), but i know that the GM/ Pontiac steering wheel controls do work with some newer headunits -- its a pain in the **** and involves voiding the warranty on the head unit by opening up the chassis of it and tapping in with a few wires---but then an adaptor wiring harness is used from those tapped in wires to the steering controls... i've seen this in two cars.... and i thought it was pretty cool, although personally i dont think it is worth the labor to go digging through the chassis of a brand new headunit. but that's a personal preference thing -- if u can get it done with out a problem, by all means go for it... but i'm sorry to say i dont know of anyone that's done it to a mopar wheel control yet.

regarding tube amps --> ya virtually all the car audio tube amps are going to be class A.. if they weren't then they'd sound like something out of a 1950's mono speker system...lol

regarding radio stations --> u wanna talk about **** -- lets talk about how most recording studios have gone from analog sound boards to digital ones -- there is just something "dead" about a digital sound board -- to be honest i've got little idea how they even work, but i can tell u that i can pick out the difference between the two. god bless lenny kravitz, he still uses an analog board. sounds good to me.

regarding sub bandwith --> if i've got a 10" that'll do the tones, i'll run it up at 100 hertz / 110 if i can... but personally i prefer 90 and down... i'm damned to having to run 70/75 and down with my current subs -- they get "funny" above that. thats one of the reasons u need to take a good look at product before u get it -- if you want high freq (high being above 100) subs, then you've gotta shop around, because there are some on the market that wont even RESPOND over 120 (cough cough -- mtx 4000's.... cough cough... blah.) lol

allrighthy well me and john will be here when you're ready to bounce **** off us -- i'll just be smoking a pack of kools till then...

good luck

Jstas

OK, first off, I think you are getting too far into crossover networks at this point. You have not even determined what kind of equipment you want to use. Check out the equipment you want to use and then we'll discuss cross-over points.

Also, I wanted to mention that while yes having a smooth transition from front to rear is a bonus, there are things in a car that have to be accounted for that don't play into the equation as much in home theater.

Cars make noise. From engine noise to road noise and all kinds of white noise in between. Pink noise is static basically. It's messy, it's loud and it's annoying. White noise is the same kind of jumble of sound as pink noise but instead of adding to the noise, it cancels it out. The problem here is that the white noise in a car can mess up the sound stage just as bad. There is a solution and it's a combination. To get that smooth flow from front to rear, you need to have some heavy mid-range and bass power. It's non-directional so you want the normally lower and more difficult noise to play loud enough to hear over that noise. Reason being is music without bass sounds tinny and flat and not good in a noisy environment. So we give the speakers some power behind them.

Alright, we have power. But, the highs are amplified at the same levels as the lows and highs are directional and will sound louder than lows. We try to have an equal distribution between front and rear, left and right but it just doesn't happen in a car because you sit closer to one corner of the listening space than you do others. That means your sound stage will be skewed to one side. How do we fix that? By causing some seperation. the exact thing you are afraid of. You don't want that sound stage behind you. If it is, you won't hear half of the information in the audio tracks. So, put the speakers that send the most info to the front. That's the tweeters. They reproduce more than half of the sound heard in a musical track, either vocals or instrumentals. So, by putting tweeters up front, you can draw the spatial imaging of the sound stage up to the center of the dash board by tricking your ears into focusing on a point between the tweeter next to you in the door and infront of you on the dash. The same way you can get a stereo to sound like one source instead of two. The music almost surrounds you, like you are in the music. Infact, when setting a car stereo, you should worry more about your sound stage than the accuracy of the recording at reproducing a natural balance. If you nail your sound stage down pat, the record's natural balance will follow properly. So don't worry about how the recording will sound. Focus on setting it up and the technical aspects and it will come together. It always does. It has to. It's all related by math and it all figures out in the end. The specs mean alot more than what most people think. If you understand the specs and how they relate to each other, you can get a good idea of how the system will sound without ever hearing it.

I know this sounds alien to you and like it won't work. Truthfully, in theory, it doesn't. Especially not in a home listening environment. But, Unlike a home, a car is not symetrical and is constantly changing. Anything from a temperature change to extra occupants of the car changes the accoustics. So, what you need to do is force the listening environment to extend outside of the car. Not in a sense that it is so loud that you can hear it outside of the car but in the sense that if you over-power the poor accoustics just enough, you can get a listening environment that is pleasing and well balanced. A sedan is probably the easiest to do it with too. Especially a mid-sized sedan because there is more room for sound to expand. Try doing it in a standard cab pickup truck. Ain't quite so easy!

Anyway, I realize that you think it sounds fishy and like overkill. But if you are looking for a full and balanced sound, placing an extra set of tweeters off of even just deck power will make more of a difference than you are thinking.




As far as some of the hardware goes, I have some thinsg to bring up.

First off, for home stereo stuff, I've become a Tube ****! I love them! I have an affinity for speakers that are older than I am! Infact, my current rig is made up of KLH 17's with a manufacture date of 1967 and they are being powered by a 8 watt x 2 channel tube amplifier I built myself. I am totally in love with it and for the 170 bucks I paid for the amp and speakers, I spent another 175 and got a pre-amp, tuner and cd player and boy is it snazzy! For less than 400 bucks too! Anyway, my point about tube amps is, they are fragile. I have seen tube amps in cars but they are usually not used for daily driving. Tubes are sensitive to vibration and there is alot of that in a car. They are also very suceptible to interference. They are nice but for automotive applications, I do not believe that they are the best choice for practicality in a daily driver. Just something to think about.


As far as tuners go, the best ones I have seen are Kenwood and Pioneer. My Kenwood head unit is 6 years old and it still sucks in the distant stations with ease. The only ones better that I have seen are my girlfriend's Pioneer and my friend's Pioneer. Both Pioneers pick up stations that my Kenwood and damn near every other brand doesn't see at all. So if you are looking for a very clean tuner, one of those two would be my best recommendation. Your only other option is satelite radio like Sirius or XM. They broadcast digital signals with CD quality or better broadcasting. If you think Logarhytmic Expanders are snazzy, listen to a satelite radio broadcast.

Also, Pioneer, Kenwood, Clarion, Alpine, Sony, Rockford Fosgate and a few others have adapter systems that let you integrate your steering wheel buttons with your remote function on the head unit. You lose the ability to have a seperate remote but the trade-off is livable in my opinion. They require some wiring but if you follow the directions, they are fairly simple and stright forward to get put together. There are also some universal kits too but they can get hairy because they require more wiring than the other ones.

A suggestion I would like to make also is a CD Changer. What I did, because I still have cassettes that I listen to, was get a cassette player with CD Changer controls. That is difficult to find with decent features anymore but if you really look around, You can find one. Infact, Pioneer, and Kenwood both make 1.5 DIN sized head units with CD and tape in one for Chrysler and GM vehicles. They may be right up your alley! Oh, BTW, DIN is the standard size for head units. A Double DIN is obviously two DIN sizes stacked one on top of the other. A CG or 1.5 DIN size is roughly one and a half DIN sizes stacked on top of each other. They are called CG because Chrysler Group has been using that size in cars for like forever and a half. Anyway, back to bidness! I recommend a CD Changer and getting a head unit with integrated CD Changer controls. Makes for a clean install and not much fuss. A CD Changer allows you to have 8-12 hours of uninterrupted listening. I don't know what I would do without it anymore. Totally worth the extra 150-250 bucks!



Now, just one more thing to give you an idea of the difference between home and car audio. Think of puppets. In home audio, the owner could be compared to operating something along the lines of a Muppet type of puppet. Not exactly a simple operation but, not so complicated that the sligtest twitch makes it unbelieveable. The car audio owner is basically operating a marionette. With all the joints, strings and off balance weight to the marionette, one odd twitch and the whole thing falls down. Only the really good puppeteers can get a marionette to dance. Most just plod along being able to do one or two things well. The best ones can make them dance! The worst ones only trip up and fall in a pile of wooden bones on the stage. Home audio is a much more stable environment. It's a clown juggling tennis balls. Car audio is that same clown, juggling sticks with fire while riding a unicycle in an earthquake. It's not so easy to keep all that stuff moving as smoothly as the clown with the tennis balls.


Sorry, had to add some stuff and clarify and my speeling was atrocious!

sntnsupermen131

lmao
your anologies crack me up
-Cody

PoweredByDodge

ok....

a clown with a 15 inch wang, a marionette, and a talking tree walk into the local bar.

the drop dead gorgeous bartender chick, built like a brick shithouse, but a carpenter on the side, walks up and says, "hey -- nice wood!"

who is she talking to, and why?


i like that--- riding a unicycle, juggling fire.. lmfao.

Isolarc

I think I get what your saying about the sound stage being expanded out side of the borders of the interior, so as to eliminate some of the effects on the soundstage from variables in the vehicle.

As far as Pink noise, White noise: If I remember right, Pink noise is noise that is equally didvided by octaves, while White noise is generally noise divided by overall spectrum. More "random" in nature. I used a pink noise generator, with a lab quality mic, to equalize the speakers frequency response, by octave, in My home theatre system.

I also understand about having the most sound information being presented in the front area, where I will most likely be. I'm just not sure about the details of frequency reponse for the various area's yet. That is why I'm going to go look at some existing systems, to see the results of what various setups produce.

On tuners: I have always been quite impressed by Pioneers overall sensitivity, with the only shortfall being alternate channel selectivty, & FM signal phase cancellation in city areas. That is one area where Blaupunkt "used" to have an advantage, but I have no idea about the state of affairs right now. I will do My research on the technical aspects of the various equipment out there, & then come back to get some advice on how to implement what ever I figure out.

On soundstage: I would want it mostly in front in a pure stereo setup, but more omni-directional with special effect sources. In a car, I would want it more omni-directional, with certain aspects, like the special highs & the lows, being handled like U have been describing in your post. My vision of what the results would be is very limited right now! That's why I need to get out in the field to see, or hear for myself what the various configurations produce.

Cd Changer: My present factory system has a cassette in the head unit, with changer controls, with a discrete 6 disc changer down below. I'm pretty sure that many companies will have a comparable size standard, so I can fit something similar into My car.

On Crossovers: Just thinking out loud.

Like I said before: There isn't much more to talk about, "UNTIL" I get out there & look at some systems, & do some homework. I'll get back to U guy's "after" I have done some homework.

P.S. Cya in a bit!

Thanks!!!

PoweredByDodge

pioneer came out w/ the super tuner III in the last few years -- it is, in my opinion, one of the best receivers out there...

sntnsupermen131

i have the super tuner 3....it is VERY good
as for your joke...what was the answer?
-Cody

PoweredByDodge

i dunno the answer -- thats why its funny but not funny at the same tiem -- thus -- a weak joke

Isolarc

Ok, what U guy's think about this Reciever: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/CDA/CarProducts/CarProductDetails/0,1429,32409,00.html

I wan't a reciever that can play all the various CD formats, & this one can. Also, it seems to have allot of handy features.

Tell Me what U think please! Thanks!!!

P.S. I just watched T3 last night: I can "live" with getting terminated by Kristanna Loken, any day! Hold On......... Aaaaaaaaaaahhh!!!

I know U must terminate Me, but not until We are finished transfering vital data! Hehe!!! Acquisition of (DNA) info, requiring upload/download link necessary. Me: Please Comply! T3> Yes Sir!!!

Pause.............. T3> Making Contact..........Primary Target Indentified.........Proceed with missionary data transfer........ Me> Yes Maaaam! U bet!!!

Aquiring Target data info... Uplink/Downlink acheived. Oh yea! OMG!!! Transfering data, (Big Time). Woooooo Hoo!!!

Me> Assimlilate at your discrection!

Who ever said that resistance is futile was right, but assimilation is definately allot of fun!!!

YeeeeeHaaaaaw!!!!!!!!:p

sntnsupermen131

im not sure but i think they have a version similar to this at walmart...i have the "premier" version of the same head unit and it is VERY good...i love it...but i dont know too much about head units...i can tell you on paper if theyre good or not...but on paper/real life is to very different things
-Cody

Jstas

I have an older version of that head unit and mine doesn't play MP3's and has half the fancy stuff. The performance specs are almost identical though. I like it! I'm running a Hifonics Zeus Z700 5 channel amp with it and it sounds spectacular! It also has sound stage settings to help you tailor your sound to your car. Very nice, very adjustable and good overall receiver. Very few shortcomings and they aren't even worth mentioning.

Good deal IMO. I think if you like it and can find it for a good price, go for it!