Graduate School

Serendipity

So... it's my senior year and I'm about to apply to grad school. I got accepted to UC Davis for undergrad, but for financial reasons decided to stay in NY. Basically I'm thinking about applying there again.

Also going to be teaching a course for Freshmen students who are Engineering majors...so that will count for credits towards grad school (# of research/teaching hours)

Any thoughts/suggestions?

I'm hoping that eventually I can get a job in Silicon Valley, or if not work in the area. Otherwise my interests are in Audio Engineering (DefTech, Polk Audio), Robotics, Green Technology, and HT.

Thanks!

TECHNOKID

You seem to be on the right track, so good luck to you. I wish you the best!

wz2p7j

Serendipity wrote: »

So... it's my senior year and I'm about to apply to grad school. I got accepted to UC Davis for undergrad, but for financial reasons decided to stay in NY. Basically I'm thinking about applying there again.

Also going to be teaching a course for Freshmen students who are Engineering majors...so that will count for credits towards grad school (# of research/teaching hours)

Any thoughts/suggestions?

I'm hoping that eventually I can get a job in Silicon Valley, or if not work in the area. Otherwise my interests are in Audio Engineering (DefTech, Polk Audio), Robotics, Green Technology, and HT.

Thanks!

Keep the GPA up and good luck! :)

Chris

praedet

Honestly, coming from an engineer that is currently getting his PhD, go out and work some first.

That is the biggest problem in grad school these days...

Jstas

praedet wrote: »

Honestly, coming from an engineer that is currently getting his PhD, go out and work some first.

That is the biggest problem in grad school these days...

I can attest to that.

I would honestly go get a job and get some real world experience before you go to grad school. Give it two years or so and then if you still think grad school is for you, start out part-time.

One other problem that solves is that once you are done with your schooling, you won't have oppressive levels of debt.

jdhdiggs

Why silicon valley? Do you just like San Jose/California? You can get paid just as well at numerous other high tech companies, but not have to put up with the stupid high cost of living and taxes of that state.

I'd take the opposite approach of Jstas and Praedet... Once in the real world, a lot of people have a really hard time getting back into the school mindset. Additionally, all that stuff you learned as an undergrad but don't use in the real world (AKA 95% of what you learned in class) will be needed for the gradschool classes and you will forget it/get rusty the longer you wait making classes harder and harder the longer you wait.

Also, most decent graduate programs will have you doing real world work (mine did) and that's usually how you get your first job so I don't see that much benifit to hitting the workplace first unless you're up to your neck in debt and need the cashflow/benifits.

ViperZ

jdhdiggs wrote: »

Why silicon valley? Do you just like San Jose/California? You can get paid just as well at numerous other high tech companies, but not have to put up with the stupid high cost of living and taxes of that state.

I've never seen electrical engineers making more than in the Silicon Valley (and I loved San Jose). Too bad I like living close to home and friends .

Congrats on the grad school. For robotics, one of the best place to work at is NASA, but usually you either have to have an internship there first or work for a subcontractor for a while (which is no different than working there anyway).

jdhdiggs

When I graduated with my BS, EE's from my school averaged about 80K to start. In SV, they'd avg 85-90K to start. I'd rather make 75-80K just about anywhere else than 85-90K in SV. Hell, I was offered a job running an engineering group for one of the Intel fabs there a year ago and they couldn't offer what I'm currently making. SV isn't the only place you can make good money...

Just ran a quick cost of living comparison, 100K in SV/SJ is equivelent to ~60K in Dallas/Austin

Jstas

jdhdiggs wrote: »

When I graduated with my BS, EE's from my school averaged about 80K to start. In SV, they'd avg 85-90K to start. I'd rather make 75-80K just about anywhere else than 85-90K in SV. Hell, I was offered a job running an engineering group for one of the Intel fabs there a year ago and they couldn't offer what I'm currently making. SV isn't the only place you can make good money...

Just ran a quick cost of living comparison, 100K in SV/SJ is equivelent to ~60K in Dallas/Austin

I had a friend who worked with me at LM after college. We were both bringing in around $55K a year right out of the gate. Granted, we were IT, not EE's. But even the EE's were only getting like 2-3K more a year than we were. But hey, defense work. Pays junk but you get crazy benefits and perks to make up for it. He had these pie-in-the-sky ideas about the "promised land" of Silicon Valley too. He searched and searched for job openings out there and found one at a company that later got bought out by Yahoo. I can't even remember the name of the little zit company.

When he got out there, he got a $15K a year raise. He was doing some interesting work but nothing like the BMD work we were doing. His job required more hours and he didn't get OT like I did. He worked more hours but didn't get paid for the extra hours. The problem with that was that the cost of living was so high that he didn't make enough to live as comfortably as he did out here. He had to have a room mate who he hated and they had a 2 bedroom apartment that was around 680 square feet (that's small for 2 people not sleeping with each other) and it cost them almost $2K a month. He wanted a house but even the cheap junk cost over $500K. He couldn't afford much at all. All his money went to housing and eating. He didn't even have a car, he took the bus most places.

He was so disenchanted that he left and came back here. Ended up moving to Annapolis to work at an office for the NSA doing computer warfare work. He gets paid way better now than he ever did, has a beautiful historic house in Annapolis with a steady job, serious 6 figure income and a garage full of sports cars plus a wife and kids. He never would have gotten that living like a pauper on $75K a year in California. Sounds insane, I know, $75K a year and barely above the "poverty line" of sorts. Hell, with the last tech bust he probably would have been unemployed.

Yeah, money isn't everything. It sure is nice but it's not worth your health or your future.

markmarc

Jstas wrote: »

I can attest to that.

I would honestly go get a job and get some real world experience before you go to grad school. Give it two years or so and then if you still think grad school is for you, start out part-time.

One other problem that solves is that once you are done with your schooling, you won't have oppressive levels of debt.

Great advice!!

Many of us leave college after getting a Bachelor's degree with a very linear mindset. Time in the real world will allow for a much much wider appreciation of your field of engineering.

devani

As an EE, I never make that much after 10+ years working as one....but my current company has one of the best benefits....I know I can make more if I move to other areas...I like NJ...

work is not as steady as defense work I did 12 years ago with similar benefits...

big companies that you listed requires inside connections....I am dead serious...

consider LEED Cert and PE if you are interested in moving up...

SivaNevets

i hold a different point of view. for business oriented graduate program, like MBA, someworking experience is a must. For science oriented program, like math,stats, or applied science like engineering, education is very systematic, u learn things u wont learn in undergrad. im doing grad school right now and worked difference offices in summers, i feel, the things you learn school u will not learn at work, just like u learn at work that ull not learn from school. the academic part, the thought about the subject u learn, does not get better when u at work, unless its research based. in a real life situation, it is also hard to comeback to school if your settled to a fine job. my advice is do grad school first, maybe find a summer job to fill in that blank.

i have many frds doing science or engineering, they all agrees that ull never learn everything for the subject matter they deal with. theres still too much too learn after undergrad.

inspiredsports

praedet wrote: »

Honestly, coming from an engineer that is currently getting his PhD, go out and work some first.

That is the biggest problem in grad school these days...

Good advice! Seeing how the real world works and how actual products are produced can be a great balancing act to all of the amorphous theory you get from a lot of the "if you can't do, teach" profs filling many of our schools.

jdhdiggs

inspiredsports wrote: »

Good advice! Seeing how the real world works and how actual products are produced can be a great balancing act to all of the amorphous theory you get from a lot of the "if you can't do, teach" profs filling many of our schools.

See, that's the thing, you need to know the program. All of my grad school (MS/PhD) was real world. Homework, class projects, thesis', etc where all real work for real companies or analyzing past programs success and failures. Theory was only coverred to the point that you could understand/apply it. This was for both mech eng (robotics work for LMT) and Econ/OR (coolest one was optimizing the South African military building force on force models for both invasion from other nations to terrorist attacks).

Then we hire people from other programs that never did "real" work (AKA, they never tried to apply the solutions to a real world, real risk project) and the people are CLUELESS...

inspiredsports

jdhdiggs wrote: »

See, that's the thing, you need to know the program. All of my grad school (MS/PhD) was real world. Homework, class projects, thesis', etc where all real work for real companies or analyzing past programs success and failures. Theory was only coverred to the point that you could understand/apply it. This was for both mech eng (robotics work for LMT) and Econ/OR (coolest one was optimizing the South African military building force on force models for both invasion from other nations to terrorist attacks).

Then we hire people from other programs that never did "real" work (AKA, they never tried to apply the solutions to a real world, real risk project) and the people are CLUELESS...

Sounds like you were in a great program, and I'm guessing the sciences so a better job than the business programs where my comments were probably more appropriate.

Jstas

SivaNevets wrote: »

i hold a different point of view. for business oriented graduate program, like MBA, someworking experience is a must. For science oriented program, like math,stats, or applied science like engineering, education is very systematic, u learn things u wont learn in undergrad. im doing grad school right now and worked difference offices in summers, i feel, the things you learn school u will not learn at work, just like u learn at work that ull not learn from school. the academic part, the thought about the subject u learn, does not get better when u at work, unless its research based. in a real life situation, it is also hard to comeback to school if your settled to a fine job. my advice is do grad school first, maybe find a summer job to fill in that blank.

i have many frds doing science or engineering, they all agrees that ull never learn everything for the subject matter they deal with. theres still too much too learn after undergrad.

While I agree with you for applied sciences like Physics or Mathematics, I gotta disagree on Engineering and such. You get a math or physics degree, it's not a science degree, it's an arts degree. They are all theory. They don't necessarily apply the theory to anything physical. In engineering and stuff like computer science or systems design/architecture, you use that theory just as much but you don't get to just think off something and give an answer. You have to apply it.

They teach you the scientific methods and such in school but you apply it in a controlled, lab environment where someone is holding your hand. In the real world, it's much more chaotic and you have to think on your feet and sometimes just react. You will never learn that in school. So if you have a degree where you theory is applied to something physical, concrete, then I whole heartedly suggest that you go out in the real world and find out how it is before you go to grad school.

A big issue we have in IT with MS and high degree holders is that they get out here thinking they are hot stuff and tout their degree. then the fit hits the shan and they duck, cover and hide. They tell us "This wasn't how we did it in school!" The response they get is "This ain't school kid."

Hell, we get co-op and summer interns who are flabbergasted that I actually expect them to work! It's usually a rude awakening for kids who have spent all their time in school and have no experience in the real world. They usually get promoted to management quickly so that they don't go breaking things anymore.

The grad school is fine if you are going with a high science like math or physics. But it really does do people alot more good to go out in to the real world and see what the work is actually like for applied sciences. That goes for things like chemistry, biology and any business degree as well. It gives a unique perspective and will beat that naive, know-it-all kid attitude right out of you. Helps in your grad school classes as well because you can identify better with the higher level off topics because you've seen it in action and have first hand experience with it. That is a billion times better than reading it in a text book and having a teacher drone on about what it's supposed to look like and be.

That said, I'm all for grad school. I'll probably go back some day myself. But I'm very glad that I went to work before grad school. I applied 2 years ago to Drexel and they had me in for an interview. I asked about transcripts and they said my resume was so well stacked that they weren't concerned about my undergrad work. They just wanted to make sure that I got in to the right program for what I wanted to do. Real world work experience is pretty much an immediate acceptance to grad school. No essays to write or anything just "When would you like to start attending classes?"

cnh

I am not an engineer, but I am an academic. As I understand it, an M.S. in Engineering is GOOD and anything higher than that is a waste unless you plan to TEACH Engineering.

I'd get my M.S. as FAST as I could and then GET OUT into the real world. I don't understand what the big thing is about UC Davis...are they even a top ten Engineering school?? What about places like CIT and MIT or RPI, U of Ill., etc? And Harvey Mudd College and all the schools that have HM colleges of Engineering Depts., etc.?

Or even a school like Lehigh University (the Engineers)?

There are so 'many' choices...I'm sure you know more than I. In NYC you have Columbia U. Engineering...a pretty good program from what I hear?

In any case....good luck!

cnh

jdhdiggs

Agreed CNH, it's the type of program and industry you want to go in should determine your timing and school selection more than anything. Hell, I'd bet most people have never heard of some of the best schools in the nation for particular industries.

Jstas

There are tons of good engineering schools in this area.

There are the ones already mentioned in New York. A couple hours down the NJ Turnpike you have NJIT (one of the top 5 tech schools in the country), Rutgers University, Drexel University, University of Pennsylvania, Penn State University, University of Delaware, Philadelphia University, Widner...the list goes on.

There are still others in New York too. NYU has an engineering school or Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (highly regarded). There's also other schools like Princeton, Temple, Villanova, Lehigh. You could go north and find schools like MIT, Brown, UConn, University of Vermont, Dartmouth, New England College...

UC Davis...yeah, it's in California but honestly, the northeast has some of the best schools in the world let alone the country. Especially for the cash you are going to lay out for UC Davis. Why would you move away just to go to California? The "full college experience"? That's a big pile of baloney. I mean, some of them are Ivy League schools offering incredible programs and stellar educations! Most of these schools are hundreds of years old. They are well known as pillars of the academic world and you're jonesin' for UC Davis? Sorry, I'm just having a hard time grasping that one.

mhardy6647

Have you spent time in the Silicon Valley? My first real job was in Sunnyvale, and we lived in Milpitas. It was a rat race in 1989, and it still is. There are nice places to go, but you have to go there. Commuting is hell. The fruit and produce is really good, though.

jdhdiggs

One last thing before I shut up- What do you want from the degree? If you think having a masters in your field will just give you a leg up vs. peers I'd reconsider and get an MBA after working a while instead of the MS. If you really dig engineering and want to get more complicated projects then go ahead with the MS.

wz2p7j

jdhdiggs wrote: »

One last thing before I shut up- What do you want from the degree? If you think having a masters in your field will just give you a leg up vs. peers I'd reconsider and get an MBA after working a while instead of the MS. If you really dig engineering and want to get more complicated projects then go ahead with the MS.

+1 to the above.

Some possible advantages to getting the Masters right after the undergrad:

1) Much quicker/easier if you can go to school full time and bang it out
2) You're more academically qualified than your peers right out of the gate
3) Less chance of NEVER getting it due to work/life pressures later on
4) Less time/effort refreshing yourself with the stuff you learned in your undergrad

Some possible advantages to getting the Masters later on after the undergrad:

1) It's more meaningful after you have some real world experience under your belt
2) There might be a company program that pays for it

Good luck :)

Chris

praedet

The problem with getting a engineering grad degree right after undergrad is that you have NO IDEA what you really like. You have not really worked in your field (at any school, no matter how good the program) and have simply studied what you were told to by the school.

Then, when picking a specialty, you go with the one you liked the best, which generally corresponds to the one you got the best grades in (generally the easiest for you) and you have no idea how it is done or used in the real world.

So you pick that specialty and go to school again, to study something you think you might like, but you don't know. The first place you might start to know is during research, but research is VERY different from doing the work for a corporation. So again, you still don't know if you will like it in the real world. Moreover, you will not be as motivated to study what you need/want, and will be motivated only by grades, because that is what you are used to from undergrad.

My path was undergrad in AE (Aerspace Engineering), work some in what I thought I liked, Masters in a different discipline of AE, work some in that area and teach a little, PhD in the same discipline plus another. After this I will go back to working in the field.

As to those that said a PhD doesn't do anything for an engineer outside of academia, that definitely doesn't apply to AEs, and I have not seen that it applies to any of the other fields either. It just means you will get paid more and have more responsibility

cnh

You guys know your field better than I. But I've, NOW, seen Ph.D.s UNEMPLOYED on both sides of the PACIFIC? So who IS employing Ph.D's in the U.S. these days? I'd be happy to hear of some companies that do because half of my Engineering and Software friends are unemployed? And some haven't been able to find a job for a year or two.

In China, more and more SCIENCE Ph.D.s are getting fewer and fewer jobs..because the way the economy works here is not yet geared toward employing 'massive' amounts of overtrained, overqualified people. And, most of the Management people I've seen back home, including University Administrators..really don't 'like' Ph.D.s--Academics. Either no real world experience, over qualified, or just too intimidating to hire are the Business MANTRAS so many hear EVERY day!

But if you are employed and it's working for you. I think that's really wonderful and wish you continued success.

Unfortunately, all the degrees in the world don't really guarantee anything today in America for the majority of those seeking work.

cnh

inspiredsports

cnh wrote: »

You guys know your field better than I. But I've, NOW, seen Ph.D.s UNEMPLOYED on both sides of the PACIFIC? So who IS employing Ph.D's in the U.S. these days? I'd be happy to hear of some companies that do because half of my Engineering and Software friends are unemployed? And some haven't been able to find a job for a year or two.

In China, more and more SCIENCE Ph.D.s are getting fewer and fewer jobs..because the way the economy works here is not yet geared toward employing 'massive' amounts of overtrained, overqualified people. And, most of the Management people I've seen back home, including University Administrators..really don't 'like' Ph.D.s--Academics. Either no real world experience, over qualified, or just too intimidating to hire are the Business MANTRAS so many hear EVERY day!

But if you are employed and it's working for you. I think that's really wonderful and wish you continued success.

Unfortunately, all the degrees in the world don't really guarantee anything today in America for the majority of those seeking work.

cnh

The pursuit of pure knowledge is wonderful, whether prior to entering a field, or more importantly, once immersed in a field where you decide you want to discover as much as possible about it.

What chaps my **** is the "Daddy will pay for it and it feeds my ego to place letters after my name" syndrome.

cnh, you said it well when you wrote "Either no real world experience, over qualified, or just too intimidating to hire are the Business MANTRAS so many hear EVERY day!"

I personally will not bring a candidate in when I judge ego to be the primary motivation behind the degree.

schwarcw

Learn to speak Chinese. With an engineering degree your options grow immensely. Lot's of companies need bi-lingual technical people. You don't have to live there but having Chinese as a second language is very good advice for a young person IMHO. The Chinese will have the largest economy in the world in your lifetime.

wz2p7j

schwarcw wrote: »

Learn to speak Chinese. With an engineering degree your options grow immensely. Lot's of companies need bi-lingual technical people. You don't have to live there but having Chinese as a second language is very good advice for a young person IMHO. The Chinese will have the largest economy in the world in your lifetime.

VERY interesting thought. I have realized through my travels in the world that you could once say that about knowing English. Chinese now, eh? Probably true in thinking about it.

Chris

cnh

schwarcw wrote: »

Learn to speak Chinese. With an engineering degree your options grow immensely. Lot's of companies need bi-lingual technical people. You don't have to live there but having Chinese as a second language is very good advice for a young person IMHO. The Chinese will have the largest economy in the world in your lifetime.

+1, couldn't agree more. Chinese is on the rise. Most Chinese Ph.D.s in science have very 'mediocre' English skills. An American with good language skills and expertise in the Sciences...would 'kill' here. There's a professor of political philosophy, a Canadian, who's lived most of his adult life in either Hong Kong (before the British handover) or China currently teaching at Qinghua University...kind of like Yale U. back home. And CAS (the Chinese Academy of Sciences is DYING for American scientists who could teach or do research alongside the native Chinese Ph.D.s?).

Learn some Chinese--there are almost 1.4 BILLION of them and at least a half century or more of Development opportunities over here! And forget about the Gov't, they're not going to do ANYTHING TO SLOW DOWN THEIR PRECIOUS ECONOMY at this point!

In fact someone who knew Chinese, had real work experience in engineering and an M.S. and M.B.A. in management would basically be able to write his ticket over here...and joint companies PAY well! You have no idea how much such types are 'needed'. I've spent a year hearing scientists speak in both languages...can't understand too much in way of 'technical' Chinese...but the technical English is mostly 'incomprehensible'!

cnh