Heavy Bass in LOTR ring drop

mr_wells · June 2003

I have seen people mention a sequence in LOTR where a "ring drops" that has very loud bass. I played the first few minutes of my special edition DVD but couldn't tell what they were refering to. Does anyone know at what chapter/time this "drop" happens?

Dr. Spec · June 2003

Originally posted by mr_wells
I have seen people mention a sequence in LOTR where a "ring drops" that has very loud bass. I played the first few minutes of my special edition DVD but couldn't tell what they were refering to. Does anyone know at what chapter/time this "drop" happens?

During the opening battle scene/narrative, Sauron gets his hand chopped off and the Ring falls to the ground.

This is an exceptionally deep and high amplitude passage with about 1/2 second of room decay. The primary frequencies are in the low 20 Hz region, but some of it extends well into the subsonic region. On the other hand (sorry), some of it also extends up into the 30-35 Hz region.

Only the very best subwoofers do it complete justice; most subs ignore the passage completely or just play the upper parts of it in the 30-35 Hz range.

If that passage doesn't waffle your pants and rearrange your hairstyle, your sub is checking out early.

Doc

Tour2ma · June 2003

Damn, I gotta hear this... the intial drop is just a dull thud, but that reverse sweep when Sauron explodes is a 106 db thrill.

I get more out of the sequence where Gollum drops and loses the ring to Bilbo in the cave...

You're getting mail, Doc...

Dr. Spec · June 2003

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Damn, I gotta hear this... the intial drop is just a dull thud, but that reverse sweep when Sauron explodes is a 106 db thrill.

I get more out of the sequence where Gollum drops and loses the ring to Bilbo in the cave...

You're getting mail, Doc...

Everytime the ring drops, the bass is heavy, but the opener is the killer of the movie.

Tour, you might try to crank up your sub level setting in the Ref 50 since you are in the pretty unique situation of running your mains on large and your sub on off/no.

I'm not exactly sure if that will accomplish anything, since the sub IS set to off/no, but it might boost the LFE channel being redirected to the mains. At least worth a try.

Regarding SPL with the two scenes you mentioned, they should be about the same on an SPL meter. With the RS model, the ring drop might be a bit lower since that meter trails off pretty badly below 25 Hz and you need to add a correction factor.

Regardless, I would think if you were hitting 106 on Sauron reverse sweep, you should be hitting 104-105 on the ring drop.

FWIW, I'm hitting 112 on both scenes at 11 feet from the sub. The ring drop is definitely more than a "dull thud"; it's quite thrilling, actually.

Doc

Tour2ma · June 2003

Doc,

Has been a week or two since I introduced my Lady to my revamped set up with the LFE up to 0 instead of my conservative, initial -3 db setting. Just did a LOTR "sampler" and as I recall the the dull thud was around 98, whereas the series of drops in the cave were about 100 and the reverse sweep the 106...

Champ was the Belroc stomping in and the stairs falling at 108-110. The intensity of that prolonged scene was enough to get me a little nervous about my mains.

I may eek the LFE up a tad more, but I think the drop is just too low for my poor, old SRS's. So I think it's time to start moving towards substituting a "V" for that "R"...

... Need to run that LF sweep you burned for me and quit the guesswork I reckon...

burdette · June 2003

I'd noticed that scene before, but checked it out again this evening when i got home. Didn't check the SPL, but my pants are done waffled and my hair is done styled. While I was at it, I listened to the opening battle scene again in T2. Wow... just about everything, from the first Terminator's footshtomp that crushes the skull.. through the 'airborne tank' getting taken out... whomps you in the chest shakes the room. No bass shakers needed at my house.

If you own it but haven't checked it out lately, listen to the 'battle' scene at the beginning of Toy Story 2. It is the scene that you find out is actually the T-Rex playing the video game, but the scene is ripe with hard hitting low bass throughout.

RuSsMaN · June 2003

Speaking of the T2 opening 'foot stomp', that brings back a good scare.

When I first got the RT800/CS300 combo up front, preparing a demo for the better half....I popped in my (vhs at the time) copy of T2 and let it roll.

Right after the movie started, I decided to get up and remove the grills - hell, new speakers, I wanted to look at them. Long story short, JUST as I removed the grill on the cs300, that effin cyborg stepped on the skull with my left ear no more than a foot from the cs300 tri-lam, I damn near crapped my pants.

I promptly leaned my head back (as if I was in the Matrix avoiding a bullet), and the wife had a good laugh for about a week straight.

Cheers,
Rooster

Tour2ma · June 2003

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...

Not sure which was funnier, hair styling or Russ doing a Neo imitation...

Dr. Spec · June 2003

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Doc, I may eek the LFE up a tad more, but I think the drop is just too low for my poor, old SRS's. So I think it's time to start moving towards substituting a "V" for that "R"... ... Need to run that LF sweep you burned for me and quit the guesswork I reckon...

Agreed, the ring drop probably IS too low for the SRS'. Burdette's new sub extends to 15 Hz flat and I'm sure he's getting all of it.

However, the Bridge of Khazad-dum & Balrog fight are very deep also, which still leaves a glimmer of hope that cranking up the LFE channel several dB might get you there.

It all depends on how the DVD was mastered for that passage. The Bridge of Khazad-dum & Balrog fight might have a bunch of L/R information, rather than "0.1" LFE information. That could explain the difference.

Russ...........that is a GD funny visual. If anyone can paste Russ' head over Neo's in that scene, it would be GOLD.

Doc

Dr. Spec · June 2003

From Home Theater SPOT - SVS forum:

Doc

"I received my 16-46 PC+ on Monday afternoon around 2pm after it had been sitting in the UPS Atlanta warehouse since 12:30am on Saturday morning.

After a quick unpacking, removal of old Cerwin Vega LW-15 sub and calibration using Avia DVD I eagerly awaited my first DVD of choice the Lord of the Rings FOTR EE. In the first few minutes of the movie when the ring hit the ground, I finally realized the bass that I had been missing and what the definition of boominess is.

The crisp, clean bass made an immediate improvement on my home theater.

Since then I have watched Monsters Inc, U-571, Castaway and Fight Club and cannot get enough of how good everything sounds now."

Tour2ma · June 2003

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
Russ...........that is a GD funny visual. If anyone can paste Russ' head over Neo's in that scene, it would be GOLD.

I'll see if I can get Sid interested in that one...

As for my SRS's... several more LFE db??? I dunno, I am kind of fond of them...

Dr. Spec · June 2003

Originally posted by Tour2ma
I'll see if I can get Sid interested in that one...

As for my SRS's... several more LFE db??? I dunno, I am kind of fond of them...

Well, just once to TRY and see what happens on the ring drop. Lower the master volume accordingly to protect the speaks, but see if it evens out the SPL compared to other passages.

If there is still a deficit on the ring drop after upping the LFE channel a bunch, you'll have your answer - it's too deep for the SRS'.

Doc

burdette · June 2003

My only experience with LOTR before the movie was the old animated "The Hobbit." I bought the DVD based only on the movie's hype.

What are "Bridge of Khazad-dum & Balrog fight" and where do they occur? My only recollection of a bridge is the scene underground when Gandolf stays behind to fight and the others go on.

Dr. Spec · June 2003

Originally posted by burdette
My only experience with LOTR before the movie was the old animated "The Hobbit." I bought the DVD based only on the movie's hype.

What are "Bridge of Khazad-dum & Balrog fight" and where do they occur? My only recollection of a bridge is the scene underground when Gandolf stays behind to fight and the others go on.

That's the scene......the Balrog is the "fire demon" he fights.

The whole scene leading up to the actual fight is loaded with super deep and powerful bass when the rocks are falling from the cavern walls. Then the fire demon comes stomping in, cuts loose with a blast of fire, and rocks the house some more. Great fun.

Want another wicked scene? The spot where the cave troll bursts in and then falls dead in the Mines of Moria is a real sub buster.

Doc

mr_wells · June 2003

On the other hand (sorry)

Don't feel bad...

Only the very best subwoofers do it complete justice; most subs ignore the passage completely or just play the upper parts of it in the 30-35 Hz range.

If that passage doesn't waffle your pants and rearrange your hairstyle, your sub is checking out early.

Doc

My PSW-650 doesn't seem to have the pants waffling effect you described in that scene. I guess your SVS is either way better or I just don't have things set up properly...

Dr. Spec · June 2003

Originally posted by mr_wells
I guess your SVS is either way better

Full stop.

Doc

dlew308 · June 2003

Such a great bass filled movie. There's also the ring drop in the prancing pony and the horse chase to the river. I can't wait for Two Towers EE

mr_wells · June 2003

Originally posted by mr_wells
My PSW-650 doesn't seem to have the pants waffling effect you described in that scene.

I posted this before my neighbor came to tell me that my sub was causing things to move around in his (town)house. Guess I don't need to worry about waffling pants...

Watch for my next post for more on this issue...

Dr. Spec · June 2003

Originally posted by mr_wells
I posted this before my neighbor came to tell me that my sub was causing things to move around in his (town)house. Guess I don't need to worry about waffling pants...

Watch for my next post for more on this issue...

The 650 is surely capable of moving a bunch of air. It just doesn't play deep enough on that particular scene to fully render the intended effect.

I had twin stacked 350s at one time and they shook my HT room with considerable force on any source material above 35 Hz.

If you run an in-room frequency response sweep on that sub, you will discover it trails off badly below 30 Hz and has virtually no useable output at 20 Hz.

With that said, I have always thought Polk subs sounded good (within their usable frequency range), they simply lack the deep extension needed to completely play several of today's most popular bass buster DVDs.

Doc

mr_wells · June 2003

Originally posted by Dr. Spec

If you run an in-room frequency response sweep on that sub, you will discover it trails off badly below 30 Hz and has virtually no useable output at 20 Hz.

Doc

From my experience ultra-low frequency extension is more than anything a function of Speaker diameter. I didn't expect to get extra high output @ 20Hz from 10" subs.

So, what size is your sub?

Dr. Spec · June 2003

Originally posted by mr_wells
From my experience ultra-low frequency extension is more than anything a function of Speaker diameter. I didn't expect to get extra high output @ 20Hz from 10" subs.

So, what size is your sub?

Deep extension is a bit more complicated than simply driver diameter. The Klipsch RSW-15 has a 15" woofer and also trails off badly below 30 Hz.

The T/S parameters of the driver, the enclosure size/volume, and the venting configuration (port size/length) dictate deep extension more than anything else. The HSU VTF-2 has a 10" driver and digs pretty deep, for example.

The SVS 20-39PC+ uses a 12" driver. Go here for more info.

http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pcplus.htm

Doc

mr_wells · June 2003

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
Deep extension is a bit more complicated than simply driver diameter. The Klipsch RSW-15 has a 15" woofer and also trails off badly below 30 Hz.

The T/S parameters of the driver, the enclosure size/volume, and the venting configuration (port size/length) dictate deep extension more than anything else.
Doc

I know you can tune for low frequencies with port length but, I think tunning for too low on a given sub can really take a toll on accuracy...

Dr. Spec · June 2003

Originally posted by mr_wells
I know you can tune for low frequencies with port length but, I think tunning for too low on a given sub can really take a toll on accuracy...

What is your technical definition of "accuracy"?

Doc

mr_wells · June 2003

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
What is your technical definition of "accuracy"?

Doc

Reproduced as close to original sound as possible. I think a lack of accuracy is most notable when playing music on a ported enclosure that is tuned (with long port) for maximum "slamage".

Dr. Spec · June 2003

Originally posted by mr_wells
Reproduced as close to original sound as possible. I think a lack of accuracy is most notable when playing music on a ported enclosure that is tuned (with long port) for maximum "slamage".

Agreed, accuracy is a function of how faithfully the output of a device matches the input signal.

Frequency response, harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, transient response, group delay, and a linear FR/SPL relationship are what define accuracy.

The SVS displays superior numbers in these measureable performance categories, and can therefore be described as accurate.

Playing loud isn't the whole picture, not by a green mile. The real issue is how loud can a sub play while still maintaining a flat FR and low distortion, and good transient characteristics.

Generating clean volume at 50-60 Hz is easy. Generating clean volume at 25 Hz is a real challenge. So a great test of any sub is how loud it can play at 25 Hz before distortion reaches 10%. Remember, distortion is one of the key parameters that defines accuracy. The antithesis of accuracy IS distortion. The PSW650 is only able to play at a very low volume at the deepest frequencies before it distorts and accuracy begins to suffer.

Subjective impressions can ALWAYS be tied to objective and measurable performance parameters. There are MANY variables that affect the perception that a certain sub is more "musical" than another.

1) Frequency Response. Even a slight emphasis in the mid range (40-80 Hz) can make the pitch or line of a bass instrument (like an acoustic bass guitar) easier to follow.

2) Transient Reponse. A driver that can follow abrupt changes in signal amplitude without delay is obviously preferable. Transient response is measured in milliseconds and can be measured on the front and back side of the signal as a function of time delay.

On the front side, poor TR can impart a sense of "sluggishness" to the sound and is often described as "poor attack".

On the back side of the signal path, poor TR is a function of how long the driver continues to produce its own sound after the signal stops. This can impart a sense of "sloppiness" to the sound, and is often described as "bass ring" or "overhang".

The best way to assess TR is to play a rapid succession of brief transients at the same frequency (say 50 Hz), and the sub should sound very staccato and there should be an audible lack of sound between each pulse.

TR is largely a function of driver design and quality, amp quality (damping factor) and the enclosure alignment. IB and sealed alignment theoretically will have the best TR characteristics, but a good vented design can come very close.

3) Group Delay. GD is defined as an actual shift in the phase characteristics of the alignment as measured over the frequency range. It is also measured in milliseconds, and a sub that has low group delay numbers at all frequencies in the audible range will be perceived as "coherent", and one that has poor GD numbers will be pervceived as "loose" or "vague".

GD is largely a function of alignment, with sealed and IB once again having the theoretical edge. A proper vented design can keep GD numbers very close to a sealed design until it reaches the tune point, at which point GD rises sharply by design. However, GD cannot be reliably detected below about 25-35 ms, and cannot be detected at all near the subsonic threashold of hearing, which is why this is a complete non-issue for a vented design which has a deep tune point.

4) THD and IMD. Harmonic and intermodulation distortion affect how "clean" the sub will sound, especially at low frequencies and high volume. Subs with high THD/IMD numbers are often described as "muddy". Conversely, a sub with excellent distortion characteristics will render all individual notes clearly, especially very deep ones, which are particularly hard to reproduce cleanly due to the increased excursion requirements.

5) Deep extension. Truly deep bass takes time to decay in a room; it's the nature of the beast. Enthusiasts hearing genuine room decay for the first time often mistakenly identify this as "overhang", "bass ring", or general "slowness". It is often said in bass circles - "no decay means no deep bass". A sealed design is often limited to around 30 Hz, and thus lacks true room decay and the lack of this characteristic is often incorrectly viewed as a positive trait.

I'll leave you two charts. 1) An actual in-room FR sweep of my subwoofer, and 2) a chart showing where the PSW650 ranks in terms of clean output (i.e., limited to 10% THD) at 25 Hz.

Keep in mind when reading Chart 2 that the SVS product shown is now OOP and has since been replaced by a better driver capable of 3 dB additional output.

My particular sub has an even more capable driver and you can add 8 dB to the SVS figures shown in Chart 2 for my sub.

Doc

mr_wells · June 2003

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
The PSW650 is only able to................................

My particular sub has an even more capable driver..........................................

Doc

Dude!!! I was not trying to start a debate over who has a better sub. You have clearly spent the most money... I was only commenting on the theory behind using a ported enclosure to get maximum SPL at low frequencies. As I said, the diamater of the driver helps the most. that's probably why you can get such wonderful, deep Bass from your 12" SVS.

Tour2ma · June 2003

Doc ain't debating, he's just presenting facts in answer to your original question as to why the "ring drop" doesn't register on your 650 and your succeeding comments where they are on the shy side of informed.

Doc has acknowledged many times that porting subs can take a toll on their accuracy. That it is difficult to both get the deep extension and faithfully reproduce the entire signal at high levels. Difficult, but it can be done. SVS and HSU are two companies that have the design right.

As for slamming sales receipts on the table as a means of comparing subs your 650 lists for $770 and can be bought for what, $640 or so? The 16-46 PC+ goes for $850. So were not talking apples and oranges here price-wise, but we are talking apples and oranges performance-wise.

Dr. Spec · June 2003

Originally posted by mr_wells
Dude!!! I was not trying to start a debate over who has a better sub. You have clearly spent the most money... I was only commenting on the theory behind using a ported enclosure to get maximum SPL at low frequencies. As I said, the diamater of the driver helps the most. that's probably why you can get such wonderful, deep Bass from your 12" SVS.

Mr. Wells:

I was not debating who has the better sub either.

You tried to rationalize and subsequently explain away the deficiencies of your subwoofer (which were brought into sharp focus by its lack of performance on the ring drop) with incorrect statements about driver size, extension, and accuracy.

As this forum is for learning and the exchange of accurate information, I could not in good conscience allow your statements go unchallenged.

To wit:

1) Deep extension is not solely a function of driver diameter.

2) Accuracy and a ported alignment with a deep tune point are not mutually exclusive concepts.

3) The fact that the PSW650 uses 10" drivers is not the reason it lacks deep extension.

4) The short vent length and higher tune point of the PSW650 does not make it more "accurate". In fact it has been proven to display high levels of distortion at low frequencies, making it inherently inaccurate by definition.

5) The 20-39PC+'s extension capabilities do not result solely from its driver diameter, and its long ports and deep tune point do not cause it to be inaccurate in terms of frequency response or distortion.

This started out as a fun discussion about the ring drop. I'd like to end it that way. I don't have an axe to grind over you or the PSW650, or how much money we paid for our subwoofers.

Doc

mr_wells · June 2003

Originally posted by Dr. Spec

You tried to rationalize and subsequently explain away the deficiencies of your subwoofer (which were brought into sharp focus by its lack of performance on the ring drop) with incorrect statements about driver size, extension, and accuracy.

There you go again...

All I said was that the 10" drivers of the psw-650 play a large role in how well the sub does at ultra-low frequencies(admitedly, not stellar). To reiterate, a 10" sub has less potential than a 12", 15" or 18" sub of producing high output at low Hz...all other things being equal.

As far as your assertions:

1) Deep extension is not solely a function of driver diameter.

I did not say that!!! I merely stated that it plays a role. And I believe (all other things, including sound quality, being equal) it is hard to overcome the difference in diameter with port length alone. I do have some experience building sealed, ported, and band-pass enclosures from which I draw these conclusions. You're not telling me anything I didn't already know by pasting a bunch of arbitrary facts.

2) Accuracy and a ported alignment with a deep tune point are not mutually exclusive concepts.

I did not say that either. If you go back and read my original statement closer, you'll see that I only remarked on the drawbacks of tuning too low for a given sub.

3) The fact that the PSW650 uses 10" drivers is not the reason it lacks deep extension.

If you used the same design for two 12" subs of equal quality and increased all other specs by the same proportions (enclosure volume, amp power), you would most certainly gain, "deep extension".

4) The short vent length and higher tune point of the PSW650 does not make it more "accurate". In fact it has been proven to display high levels of distortion at low frequencies, making it inherently inaccurate by definition.

I don't know why you are bringing this up but, I made no claims as to the great accuracy of the PSW-650. I'll let you debate this one with someone else.

5) The 20-39PC+'s extension capabilities do not result solely from its driver diameter, and its long ports and deep tune point do not cause it to be inaccurate in terms of frequency response or distortion.

I NEVER, EVER, EVER said diameter is the only thing that gives the SVS it's wonderful, quality. It is entirely possible that the SVS uses shorter ports since, the enclosure is of a different volume and the driver is of a different diameter. Therefore, I see no relevence in your point.

This started out as a fun discussion about the ring drop.

You're right. I don't know how you got into the mode of debating a bunch of points that I didn't make...

mr_wells · June 2003

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Doc ain't debating, he's just presenting facts in answer to your original question as to why the "ring drop" doesn't register on your 650 and your succeeding comments where they are on the shy side of informed.

Maybe I just wasn't making myself clear enough but, I don't know what you mean by saying I was, "on the shy side of informed."

your 650 lists for $770 and can be bought for what, $640 or so? The 16-46 PC+ goes for $850. So were not talking apples and oranges here price-wise, but we are talking apples and oranges performance-wise.

I paid nowhere close to any of the numbers you have quoted here, FYI...

Tour2ma · June 2003

:rolleyes: Good-bye...

Heavy Bass in LOTR ring drop

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