Toyota in the news again.

Roy Munson

I posted this in the last Toyota hysteria thread on 3/12/2010.

I wonder if in the end this turns out like the Audi 5000 hysteria in the 80's in which most all of the cases of SUA turned out to be driver error? Everyone is ready to throw Toyota under the bus without so much as a single bit of evidence that points to an electrical or computer problem.

I still stand by it!

Jstas

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

I love how we're blaming Toyota for releasing the info before we know for sure what's going on. Unless I'm missing something, do we jar any actual proof that Toyota released this?

I know that doesn't matter to some because this is just another chance for them to be able to brand bash, but in the spirit of full disclosure do we know who REALLY released the info?

Maybe you missed this part:

According to an unnamed NHTSA spokeswomen speaking with Just-Auto, "The story was planted by Toyota. Toyota is the source – yes we know that for definite [sic]. It is [the] Toyota PR machine. We knew they were going to put it out."

I mean, it was bolded so it was a point of interest.


If I didn't already know that Toyota was a big ball of PR spin to begin with, I would have called this insider trading and market fixing.

It's not about brand bashing butt-hurt-man. It's about fair market practices.

Look at it this way. Toyota reports on a report that isn't theirs on numbers that we do not know for sure if they are privy to or not. Who do they report to? Only one of the oldest and most influential financial periodicals in existence, that's who. What happens next? Toyota stock jumps 1.1 point. Yeah, so? Well, say that 1.1 point is worth $1.10. Toyota has 540,000,000 shares that all just gained $1.10. Do some quick math and Toyota just gained $594m in worth on an unsubstantiated report that THEY released! That's market fixing and it's a violation of anti-trust laws.

Not only does it look like Toyota has the NHTSA and DOT in their back pocket but it also seems like the WSJ is on the take in this too.

Will anything come of it? No, it won't, because people will just laugh it off. Ahhh...ha,ha...Toyota, you scamps! :rolleyes:

AsSiMiLaTeD

Did ya'll see that, he just called me butt-hurt-man....

Seriously John, butt-hurt-man??? Really not your best, but I'll give you an 'E' for effort.

I didn't 'miss' that part, I'm gonna need more than 'an unnamed' source to call it evidence.

Show me some proof that they released the story and we'll chat, otherwise its meaningless.

FWIW, I'm not saying they did or did not plant the story, just like I didn't jump in on the previous page and say "Seeeeeeee, I told you Toyota was innocent!!!", I offerred my interpretation of the article that was posted and nothing further.

Instead what I'm proposing is that we let all the evidence and data come forth before we draw any conclusions. I have no dog in this fight, other than the fact that if Toyota goes out of business I'll be screwed if I ever need any parts for my 4Runner. Since the acquisition of the FX45 I'm not really a 'Toyota' guy any more, so I could give a rats **** about if they're 'good' or 'bad'. They don't make a product that even competes with the FX45, so they're not relevant to me.

Also, when a final verdict comes down, none of that "Ohhhhh, well they're just paying everyone off and it's a big conspiracy" mess. You can't really argue with someone like that because you can say that about anything. It's conjecture at best and there's really no evidence one way or the other that can even form the basis of an argument.

It's clear that some people are either so anti or pro Toyota that they're blinded by their hatred or love and are not able to see the big picture clearly. And no I'm not singling John or anyone else out, that goes both ways and I've been on both sides of that fence with various companies myself. It's just that when people in those camps say something they come across as so biased that it almost invalidates ANYTHING they have to say on the topic.

Jstas

I really don't know what more proof you want than the NHTSA saying that they did not release the studies because they aren't finished with them yet.

Jstas

And it's not about hating Toyota. It's about exactly what I said. A complete lack of ethics on all parts. The NHTSA, Toyota and WSJ.

PhantomOG

Jstas wrote: »

I really don't know what more proof you want than the NHTSA saying that they did not release the studies because they aren't finished with them yet.

which is quite different from a cut and dry case of Toyota releasing the info. An "unnamed" source to "Just-Auto" (what is that?), hardly concrete in my book. Regardless, if the report turns out with results the same or close to what's been released, big whoop. Why is it ok to condemn a company with half-**** information, but such a travesty the other way around?

AsSiMiLaTeD

How do we know it's not a big ploy by the government or by a competitor, huh????????

Think about it, Government Motors says "Hey, Toyota has been out of the news for a bit and our sales are still down, we needs some bad press for them. Hey, I have an idea, let's make up a story about NHTSA findings on their cars and leak it to the press, then the NHTSA will come out and deny it and Toyota will look like the bad guy. Muahahahaha.' Some new kid sitting over in the corner says 'Yeah, but shouldn't we make a it a bad story, like their cars KILLED PEOPLE?' 'No dummy, nobody is going to believe that Toyota planted a bad story about themselves. Someone get this intern outta here!!!'.

It doesn't have to be GM, you can replace that with Ford, Chrysler, any company you like, the scenario plays out the same, except that Ford sales are actually UP I believe.

In fact, it doesn't make any sense logically that Toyota would make up that story. Some new kid walks into the CEO office at Toyota, 'Excuse me sir, I have an idea. What I'm thinking we could do to get some good press would be to make up up some test result findings from the NHTSA saying that the drivers were at fault for those crashes and not our cars. Then we could take that story and leak it to the press, then everyone will think we're good again. Muahahaha.' 'No you idiot, if we do that, the NHTSA is just going to deny the story, and then everyone is of course going to assume that we planted it. That's the dumbest idea I've ever heard. Someone get this intern outta here!!!.

Moral of the story, if you're the new guy it's probably best to keep your mouth shut...

Jstas

PhantomOG wrote: »

which is quite different from a cut and dry case of Toyota releasing the info. An "unnamed" source to "Just-Auto" (what is that?), hardly concrete in my book. Regardless, if the report turns out with results the same or close to what's been released, big whoop. Why is it ok to condemn a company with half-**** information, but such a travesty the other way around?

What the hell are you talking about?

Two things, I already said why it's a big whoop. Also, I didn't condemn only Toyota. I think that the NHTSA and the WSJ are both to blame as well.

I don't really care who the original news source is. It's been corroborated by several other news outlets as well. I only posted the original source because of people like you who question everything I write.

Jstas

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

How do we know it's not a big ploy by the government or by a competitor, huh????????

Think about it, Government Motors says "Hey, Toyota has been out of the news for a bit and our sales are still down, we needs some bad press for them. Hey, I have an idea, let's make up a story about NHTSA findings on their cars and leak it to the press, then the NHTSA will come out and deny it and Toyota will look like the bad guy. Muahahahaha.' Some new kid sitting over in the corner says 'Yeah, but shouldn't we make a it a bad story, like their cars KILLED PEOPLE?' 'No dummy, nobody is going to believe that Toyota planted a bad story about themselves. Someone get this intern outta here!!!'.

It doesn't have to be GM, you can replace that with Ford, Chrysler, any company you like, the scenario plays out the same, except that Ford sales are actually UP I believe.

In fact, it doesn't make any sense logically that Toyota would make up that story. Some new kid walks into the CEO office at Toyota, 'Excuse me sir, I have an idea. What I'm thinking we could do to get some good press would be to make up up some test result findings from the NHTSA saying that the drivers were at fault for those crashes and not our cars. Then we could take that story and leak it to the press, then everyone will think we're good again. Muahahaha.' 'No you idiot, if we do that, the NHTSA is just going to deny the story, and then everyone is of course going to assume that we planted it. That's the dumbest idea I've ever heard. Someone get this intern outta here!!!.

Moral of the story, if you're the new guy it's probably best to keep your mouth shut...

Toyota was fingered in the report as being the one. The unknown spokesperson who requested anonymity has told several other news sources the same story. The NHTSA person, named or not, stated that Toyota was the one who did it. I'm not speculating anything. It's there in black and white. You on the other hand, you're all over the map. I don't have a conspiracy theory, I only wrote what I read and what I thought was wrong about how it appears. You're the one talking about some other company doing it and for every other reason.

No matter who leaked what where it was grossly irresponsible and unethical. It damages all parties involved and I'm just amazed and how much deeper this PR disaster keeps getting. It was never my intent to bash Toyota. It seems you and PhantomOG have taken it that way. Probably because you have some kind of hard-on against me. I just noticed the story and since you were trashing me about it yesterday when I said:

Umm...everything I'm reading says that only a small portion of the millions of recalled vehicles where the owners said the car started accelerating while they were "pressing the brake" were found to be driver error. NHTSA states that the sticky accelerator pedal and the floor mat problems are still under investigation.

It ain't over yet. Don't go congratulating yourselves on how right you were so quick.

I figured it was a relevant story and those who were involved yesterday might find it interesting.

And here you are saying the same thing but flipping it around. For some reason you think I'm gloating. How you got that from me posting "Wow.", I'm not sure but, yet again, you did and here I am again defending every letter I write.

Stop reading in to everything I write and stop trying to guess what's going on in my head. You get it wrong every single time.

AsSiMiLaTeD

It's an unnamed source, I'm sorry but that holds no value for me. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying I need more than an 'unnamed source' before I believe something.

I'm not 'all over the map', I'm just saying that it's just as plausible that anyone else could have planted that story.

You believe the unnamed source, I don't, simple as that.

"It was never my intent to bash Toyota." - I find that hard to believe given your history on here. You can say whatever you want now, but your history and previous posts speak volumes.

I don't hvae anything against you, just your point of view. Why do you always have to make everything so personal? If I had something against you I'd be arguing with you in every post you make, and that's simply not the case and anyone can look that up.

"I just noticed the story and since you were trashing me about it yesterday " - Show me where I was 'trashing' you yesterday.

I have NO IDEA what's going on in your head, all I know is what I see you posting on this forum.

PhantomOG

My point is, the main reason Toyota's reputation and stock have taken a nose dive is because of a rush to conclusions by the media, Congress, etc. to imply that millions of Toyota's out on the road today are capable of just accelerating on their own and not being able to stop by pushing the brake. Everyone seems to be OK with Toyota taking this hit, but information comes out that early data in NHTSA study shows that 74 out of 75 fatalities were caused by driver error, and that the cars won't accelerate on their own and are capable of stopping. And the leak of this information redeeming the company from these false implications is the shameful thing?

AsSiMiLaTeD

While I'd agree that releasing this info early undermines the process somewhat, as longs as the info is true and it doesn't influence the process then I have no real problem with it, regardless of who leaked the information.

Now if the info is false or is intended to influence the results that's a different story, but again I'll reserve judgement until all the facts come out

Roy Munson

My point is, the main reason Toyota's reputation and stock have taken a nose dive is because of a rush to conclusions by the media, Congress, etc. to imply that millions of Toyota's out on the road today are capable of just accelerating on their own and not being able to stop by pushing the brake. Everyone seems to be OK with Toyota taking this hit, but information comes out that early data in NHTSA study shows that 74 out of 75 fatalities were caused by driver error, and that the cars won't accelerate on their own and are capable of stopping. And the leak of this information redeeming the company from these false implications is the shameful thing?

It's a shameful thing to the fanboys that are hellbent on killing Toyota!

The fact that the media falsely eviscerated Toyota is of no consequence to those that want to bring Toyota down and that is the real point. This has all happened with not so much as a scintilla of evidence that proves Toyota has any computer problems that would cause SUA...and that is perhaps the only real fact here!

Jstas

You two are still going on about the media stories and I never said a word about it.

All I did was post a story that was relevant to the discussion in this thread.

Obviously you have a hard-on for me since you have readily admitted that you are assigning meaning to my posts where there is none.


Lastly, the critical part you both are missing is that this info did not come from the NHTSA or their study. It came from Toyota and their study. Toyota is the one who thinks Toyota owners are blundering morons.
The only thing the NHTSA has officially released is that the study so far shows "no conclusions". Or something to that affect.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Just to clarify, that last part is unconfirmed as of yet.

j allen

Danny Tse wrote: »

Also, Toyota may be planning for the return of the Supra

I really hope not. It would blow a hole in my 'it's an old car, they cost way more than they're really worth' argument to my fiancee about us getting one.

PhantomOG

Jstas wrote: »

The only thing the NHTSA has officially released is that the study so far shows "no conclusions". Or something to that affect.

Exactly. I'm just pointing out that no one seems to have a problem with Toyota's stock and reputation tanking even though "no conclusions" have been reached which definitely point to the millions of Toyota's out there having some sort of electrical/computer issue which would cause an actual unintended acceleration event or those same cars not being able to stop with use of the brakes. ABC has even been caught faking video of a Toyota acceleration event. None of this draws your ire, but some unnamed source claiming Toyota told the Wall Street Journal their cars are safe does??

Why do you get so worked up on every thread anytime anyone even slightly disagrees with you?

concealer404

I haven't seen anything yet that says that Toyota as a corporation released those numbers. It was supposedly someone who worked for Toyota, but from what i've read, it was a leak, not an official statement from the corporation.

So quite possibly not a stupid move by Toyota, but rather backlash from a bad employee.

JimKellyfan

Anyone want to buy an 09 Access cab ?
4 banger auto, with ARE cap and all the goodies, tow package, yada, yada
recall is floor mat on this model, however my mats are rubber and do not move, really
19.5K cash for it, odometer at 10K
Lists for 22,065 on kbb

Wife wants sports car instead.
This was supposed to be mine, but she needed a new one, so it became hers.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Seriously, they put a 4 cylinder engine in that truck? It should be illegal to make a truck with only 159 HP...

JimKellyfan

yeah 2.7, it would be better with different gearing, although it depends what you use it for
I believe the newer ones have more hp
The mileage is great though
If I were to buy over, I would go 6 cyl and 4wd for peace of mind boat drops on those moldy slopes

My last few trucks were overkill in one form or another
( 99 Discovery II / Chevy Express 3500 extended )

AsSiMiLaTeD

Couple things...

1 - This article is somewhat interesting, not sure if it's been posted before. http://www.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1043440_toyota-sudden-acceleration-is-it-all-older-drivers-fault FWIIW I'd need a little more statistically sound data to endorse those findings but the data there along with some basic intuitive reasoning make the case fairly well, at a minimum it's food for thought.

2 - Can you believe these **** put a 4 cylinder engine in the new 2010 4Runner? That should be illegal. It looks like it was a very limited option, and everything I can find in stock anywhere has the better V6, but still....it's just wrong. Whoever made that decision should be out looking for a new job...

LessisNevermore

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

2 - Can you believe these **** put a 4 cylinder engine in the new 2010 4Runner? That should be illegal. It looks like it was a very limited option, and everything I can find in stock anywhere has the better V6, but still....it's just wrong. Whoever made that decision should be out looking for a new job...

Maybe this is just truth in advertising.

:p

JimKellyfan

That's why I love driving my Caprice with the LT1.
When the wife stopped me short of modifying my new Taco, I decided right then and there I was going to get something I could tinker with, the Caprice. The Caprice already has a 20 plus horse added since the day I bought it. And an incognito RAM air is yet to be installed, giving me a bit more yet.

AsSiMiLaTeD

LessisNevermore wrote: »

Maybe this is just truth in advertising.

:p

Yep, I mean that's gotta be one of the worst decisions by an auto company in recent years, there's no way that thing is gonna crack 70 mph with an engine that size, 160 HP, are you fraking kidding me??!!??

Of course having said that, all anyone around here has anyway are the V6 models and we're going Saturday to test drive a couple different versions, we're considering swapping out our current 4Runner for this model, if we like it better that is...

concealer404

HP isn't what moves cars. Torque is. That motor is adequate for interstate driving. BARELY. But it does work.

If you feel it's lacking, that particular motor LOVES boost.

Do i think it's the right motor for a 4runner? No. But i would love one of those motors in fully dressed form for another project.

JimKellyfan

You are correct. I did fail to mention, the sole reason I do not reprogram the EEPROM to get more HP yet, is so I keep the higher torque ratings given to the wagon. I was merely happy to report HP gains, just by typical maintenance only. I further did my own alignment, setting the specs so I handle better around turns in such a beast. In spec, but negative on both camber and toe settings ( leaning in slightly at the top, and leaning out slightly as if toes were pointed out ) ( spelled out for those that hadn't an understanding of alignments ).

On back to Toyota, TRD has many mods including the turbo for the 6 cylinders, that would also maintain factory warranty ( if done by Toyota, that is ). It was explained to me that Toyota must prove any modification would have caused an issue to void any warranty. Too, they typically will fix any issue once or twice before bailing ( if a mod is causing a warranted part to fail, that is )
In any event, I am awaiting the 3 yr/36k mark ( as well as wife approval ) before any Toyota mods are performed.
If I could hit control alt delete, I would get the long bed 6 cyl double cab and put the turbo on ( or FJ ). And even that type of mod questions, why not go Tundra or FJ Cruiser.
It depends upon use and what you want to drive really.
Turning in a Land Rover Discovery II, I should have went with either an FJ or Honda's Ridgeline.
Given our use of the Land Rover, and the desire to stay cheap, I went with Access cab, 4 banger with as many goodies as I could get.
That said, I am quite pleased with our Taco, but would like to get out of the payments asap, of course.

Danny Tse

Danny Tse wrote: »

Also, Toyota may be planning for the return of the Supra

Jstas wrote: »

Oh and a new Supra is a pipe dream at best.

From "Car & Driver"....

Toyota has applied to trademark the iconic Supra name, according to documents it filed with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office on July 16. The company’s previous trademark on the model name expired in 2006, and for the past four years Toyota didn’t bother to renew it.

Maybe Toyota will put the Supra name on this hybrid they are working on....