Does a sub HAVE to have a 20hz ext to be a SUB?

kuntasensei

ShinAce wrote: »

CDs are flat to 0Hz(DC)! Unless your sub plays flat to 0Hz and you live in an airtight cabinet, you aren't getting the full CD experience!

There are pieces of classical music with cannon shots producing sound under 10 Hz. I guess I should upgrade my sub, again.

Yeah yeah, smartass! The difference is... mixes done for digital soundtracks are done specifically for full range playback, i.e. 20Hz-20kHz (whereas production standards for redbook CDs are kind of a crapshoot). In the case of movies, there is a known reference, so to properly reproduce them in your home, you must have a system that can play down to 20Hz. End of story. If we're getting into semantics, it's as easy as saying that a SUBwoofer should be able to play SUBsonics... or it's just a woofer.

And anyone who can't experience those digitally recorded cannons in all their glory should absolutely upgrade! My SVS20-39CS+/Buttkicker LFE combo does a very nice job with it!

cstmar01

I can hear to 2 Hz...only problem is that when you get down around 7 I always crap my pants....ops..

ShinAce

kuntasensei wrote: »

Yeah yeah, smartass! The difference is... mixes done for digital soundtracks are done specifically for full range playback, i.e. 20Hz-20kHz (whereas production standards for redbook CDs are kind of a crapshoot). In the case of movies, there is a known reference, so to properly reproduce them in your home, you must have a system that can play down to 20Hz. End of story. If we're getting into semantics, it's as easy as saying that a SUBwoofer should be able to play SUBsonics... or it's just a woofer.

And anyone who can't experience those digitally recorded cannons in all their glory should absolutely upgrade! My SVS20-39CS+/Buttkicker LFE combo does a very nice job with it!

I'm allowed to be a smart ****, my sub is DIY!

A single 10" that plays within 3dB from 18 Hz to 65 Hz. Eat your heart out! Okay, so maybe it's two tens, isobarically loaded, in a 4th order bandpass.

At one time, a guy named Richard Clark, used a 5foot sub to try and break the SPL record. I think he ended up using 4 MRI amplifiers, and hit in the 160 dB range with that 5 footer. Under 10 Hz!!!! It was called the bread truck.

halo71

ShinAce wrote: »

A single 10" that plays within 3dB from 18 Hz to 65 Hz. Eat your heart out! Okay, so maybe it's two tens, isobarically loaded, in a 4th order bandpass.

That sounds pretty cool! Got pics?

yepimonfire

hahaha a 0hz sine wave would be an infinitely extruding cone. we're gonna need a woofer with an xmax of infinity. and your wrong, 0hz would require an infinite dynamic range, cd's stop at 90dB approx.

TNRabbit

cstmar01 wrote: »

I can hear to 2 Hz...only problem is that when you get down around 7 I always crap my pants....ops..

Aaaah....the infamous "Brown Note"... :eek:

I can hear to -23.48 Hz, but only if I've eaten my Wheaties....

ShinAce

yepimonfire wrote: »

hahaha a 0hz sine wave would be an infinitely extruding cone. we're gonna need a woofer with an xmax of infinity. and your wrong, 0hz would require an infinite dynamic range, cd's stop at 90dB approx.

Nice try! 0Hz is pretty much the same thing as DC offset, and all amplifiers have it. It has amplitude just like any other signal, but doesn't really count as sound.

It has a plexi top, so you can see all. The pics were on geocities, which apparently no longer exists. I guess I'll snap some new ones when I get a chance.

heiney9

yepimonfire wrote: »

musically speaking, a sub does not need to go past about 30hz because there is no real musical data below 30hz

Well, that's not true unless all you listen to is radio friendly Top 40 or Rap, MP3's, iTunes, etc. When you start getting into more "musical" artists and recordings, lots of instruments play and are recorded below 30Hz.

Tell me when the Holly Cole Trio plays, their upright bass player doesn't hit notes below 30Hz.

H9

yepimonfire

actual notes or sub-harmonics? most music has sub harmonics down to as low as 4hz.

ShinAce

deleted

yepimonfire

i still have your reply in my email

madmax

I can sense sounds lower than I can hear with the senn 600's.
madmax

madmax

heiney9 wrote: »

Well, that's not true unless all you listen to is radio friendly Top 40 or Rap, MP3's, iTunes, etc. When you start getting into more "musical" artists and recordings, lots of instruments play and are recorded below 30Hz.

Tell me when the Holly Cole Trio plays, their upright bass player doesn't hit notes below 30Hz.

H9

Are you sure of that? I thought only synthesized bass went lower.

stangjason

yepimonfire wrote: »

5 people from various AV forums have said polk makes crap subs and that they are nothing more then mid-bass speakers. firstly, someone is obviously forgetting mid-bass octaves begin past 100hz, secondly, what's wrong with polks subs? people keep telling me that a subwoofer is only a subwoofer if it can go all the way down to 20hz. well i went on some audio dealer sites and found out not even half of them can do that, most stop at around 30hz, the super expensive ones make it down to about 25hz. only about 5 actually made it down to 23hz, none went all the way down to 20.

so are polks subs really that bad and why are they being bashed by everyone?

I own a Polk sub PS10w but only because it came free with the set of speakers I bought. I wouldn't recommend it because it is just too boomy for my taste but I do have to admit that it is the bottom of the line subwoofer so I'm sure the higher level subs are good quality.

Oh yeah it has been tested to hit 20hz

The only recommendation for a sub I can give is to look into the HSU subs because I own one and love the sound. I have never heard any other sub with such realistic bass without the boominess. For example the beginning of Batman Returns rattled my wifes favorite clock off the wall in the Kitchen which is about 20ft from the sub (open floor plan living room).

kuntasensei

stangjason wrote: »

I own a Polk sub PS10w but only because it came free with the set of speakers I bought. I wouldn't recommend it because it is just too boomy for my taste but I do have to admit that it is the bottom of the line subwoofer so I'm sure the higher level subs are good quality.

Oh yeah it has been tested to hit 20hz

A PSW10, you mean? 'Cause its -3dB point is 40Hz and the overall response is 35Hz-200Hz. There's not a chance in hell it reproduces 20Hz with any energy. It might make some noise when you play a 20Hz tone... but not the sound a subwoofer is SUPPOSED to make with a 20Hz tone.

Let's face it... Polk makes ONE subwoofer that will cleanly hit near 20Hz with authority, and it's the DSW microPRO 4000. And for what it costs, you could get a pair of subs from other companies that would handily trounce anything in Polk's lineup. Polk simply does not make subwoofers for home theater enthusiasts, nor one suitable for playback of digital surround tracks. Subs have always been the biggest weakness in their product line, which is a shame because their speakers are absolutely fantastic for the money.

Still, for the audience that Polk markets to, they won't know the difference and will likely be perfectly happy with a Polk sub... until they hear something better.

yepimonfire

it only makes port chuffing sounds below 30hz, nothing audible at all.

scoobygt68

Has anyone found a good software/sound meter to measure their subs freq response?

ShinAce

scoobygt68 wrote: »

Has anyone found a good software/sound meter to measure their subs freq response?

Yes, your ears!

A sub's response(installed) will vary widely by position. Try to get your head near a corner of the room and you'll notice an instant boost in boom.

To meter it, you'd need to measure the specs outside in open air. Then measure again from your sweet spot with the sub installed, and constantly move the sub around until the response mellows out. Or you could try to EQ it, but that's not my first choice. This change in performance is sometimes called the transfer function, or cabin gain.

Buying a good mic for the purpose is just not worth it.

hearingdoc

I would love to test any fellow audiophiles hearing if your ever in the Bakersfield California area for free.

The cochlea cannot reproduce frequencies lower than 20hz. Its a physical inner ear impossibility. One may feel vibrations or air pressure but its not the fundamental frequency sound. Most are hearing "artifacts or Harmonics" of the original signal. This is the way we hear: acoustical energy converted to mechanical energy converted to hydraulic energy converted to electrical energy then converted to a chemical reaction near the temporal lobe sides of the brain within the acoustical imaging center of the brain.

The ONLY way to validate ones "Hearing Sensitivity" or "I hear this way..." is thru a calibrated testing system utilizing pure tone air conduction thresholds then comparing them to pure tone bone conduction scores. Also, having a Auditory Brainstem Response test within a clinical setting to measure brainwaves presented from the inner ear to the imaging center of the brain. Unless these tests have been done, one cannot say they hear lower or higher than what the body is designed to hear based on medical science.

kuntasensei

hearingdoc wrote: »

The cochlea cannot reproduce frequencies lower than 20hz. Its a physical inner ear impossibility. One may feel vibrations or air pressure but its not the fundamental frequency sound.

You can't make a blanket statement that the cochlea can not detect frequencies lower than 20Hz, especially since there's data from before 1967 that says that our maximum potential aural range extends down to 12Hz under ideal conditions at high sound pressure levels. 20Hz is considered the statistical norm for healthy young people... but it is NOT a hard limit based on some physical limitation of the inner ear and will vary from person to person. 20Hz is simply the typical rolloff point for most people's perception based on average sound pressure levels. Even that sensitivity rolloff itself isn't a constant amongst humans, which is why the Fletcher-Munson curve is based on statistical norms, as is Tomlinson Holman's research on loudness curves at USC since then.

Certainly, I think we can agree that the vast majority of people are actually "hearing" the harmonics (or often the resonance of surrounding objects) instead of the sound itself when it comes to infrasonics, but you can't make a blanket statement that we can't hear lower than 20Hz because of a physical limitation of the cochlea, especially when there's so much research to the contrary. Your blanket statement rules out variances due to earlobe/canal size, cochlear fluid pressures, bone density, etc. It also ignores the fact that people exist with heightened sensitivity to infrasonics when tested with sub-20Hz sine waves in a best-case anechoic environment.

Regardless, the original point remains - digital soundtracks are mixed on systems that reproduce down to 20Hz and often contain audio below that point, so the only way to properly reproduce the original mix in the home is to have a subwoofer with flat response down to 20Hz.

Bernal

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yepimonfire

ShinAce wrote: »

Yes, your ears!

A sub's response(installed) will vary widely by position. Try to get your head near a corner of the room and you'll notice an instant boost in boom.

To meter it, you'd need to measure the specs outside in open air. Then measure again from your sweet spot with the sub installed, and constantly move the sub around until the response mellows out. Or you could try to EQ it, but that's not my first choice. This change in performance is sometimes called the transfer function, or cabin gain.

Buying a good mic for the purpose is just not worth it.

most of the time especially with ported subs they roll off so steeply EQing is not worth it. like my psw10 rolls off at 35hz super steeply and will not make audible sound below 30hz, in port loaded enclosures they gain an extra octave or so but below that they are useless. in ported enclosures the port is used to control the woofer and used to re-direct the woofers energy to the port, when you go below that tuning frequency the port turns from an actual resonator to a bad hole in the box that allows the driver to behave as if it wasnt in a box. oh and enough about saying below 20 hz is impossible, it will be impossible when i stop hearing 15 hz sounds.

bsturgeon89

Conradicles wrote: »

That is what I'm talkin' about. 114db at 20Hz...:cool::cool::cool:

And musical too!:eek:

Woohoo........

Cuz that baby is making its way to my house next month in some fashion one way or another.

cnh

madmax wrote: »

Are you sure of that? I thought only synthesized bass went lower.

That was also my understanding?

cnh

hancarbonite

:rolleyes:
Don’t worry everyone he’s been trolling around for months mocking/bashing loudspeaker manufactures.

Like they say?

halo71

^

decal

Still, for the audience that Polk markets to, they won't know the difference and will likely be perfectly happy with a Polk sub... until they hear something better.

I can't believe all you PA fans are letting this statement stand!!

ALWALLER

If you can feel ( not hear ) the subsonics under 20hz ,is that enough
reason to want a sub that reproduces signals below 20 hz ? There are scenes
that you feel in you chest that separates subs at a certain level.Polk will play
the notes that you can hear, but what about that pressure on your chest from some subs ?

kuntasensei

decal wrote: »

I can't believe all you PA fans are letting this statement stand!!

I still stand by what I said... because as long as you can get a SVS, Hsu or ED sub that will vastly outperform Polk's offerings at a similar or lower price point, it's still true. Polk markets to a certain audience, and that audience will be perfectly content with even the lower end Polk subs that don't go anywhere near 20Hz. Ignorance is bliss.

dorokusai

If it's just going to be rhetorical hatred for Polk and it's subwoofers, why bother posting? We're well aware, the regular contributing supporters/members/readers of course, of the performance aspects of all the brands mentioned....ad nauseum. SVS sells one, Polk sells one thousand. All the brands make a high quality product that cover almost every hz facet of the subwoofer experience.

Just because someone, anyone...let's call him Joe Schmo enjoys his average subwoofer doesn't make him ignorant. Basically you're calling Polks market and audience, that they started the company on since day one at Johns Hopkins, stupid. What a great thing to say.

It does however fall into the brand bashing category at a certain point. Be constructive not mean spirited. With that said, a couple of you should take a few days off or go to the other users forums and wax poetically for a change. Fan forums are for fans and people that enjoy the products of that manufacturer and many other common bonds....looks like Polk should just tighten the belt a little, it's boring to read a couple of you.