SDA 2 - Very Bright and unimpressive Low End.. What am I doing wrong
Comments
-
inspiredsports wrote: »Welcome to CP, kchilaka.
First, many disconnect the dimensional tweeter on this model. No later model Polk has a dimensional tweeter as it was found to be unnecessary. You must carefully insulate the wires once removed, and need to leave the tweeter in place to maintain the cabinet's seal. A big benefit here is that you only need to spend 2 X $50 with Polk Customer Service to replace the stereo tweeters with RDO194-1's. The RDO-194's alone will calm them down.
I would suggest against that because I have been there before. I have 1A's which are basically the same speaker as yours minus one mid-range. If you disconnect that tweeter you will have about half as much sound stage. They were designed that way, they work better than way. They just sound like regular speakers with those tweeters disconnected. Don't take my word for it, disconnect them and listen for yourself.
inspiredsports said to disconnect the dimensional tweeter not the dimensional drivers too.
My SDA-2B's do not have a dimensional tweeter (by design-which is a newer design than the SDA2) and the sound stage is wide and the SDA effect is quite evident.____________________
This post is a natural product. The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects.
HT:Onkyo 805, Emotiva XPA-5, Mitsu 52" 1080p DLP / polkaudio RTi12, CSIa6, FXi3, uPro4K
2-chnl : Pio DV-46AV (SACD), Dodd ELP, Emotiva XPA-1s, XPA-2, Odyssey Khartago, LSi9, SDA-SRS 2 :cool:, SB Duet, MSB & Monarchy DACs, Yamaha PX3 TT, SAE Tuner...
Pool: Atrium 60's/45's -
Those are what I bought for 60.00 a pair, but most of the mids and tweeters have to be replaced. Not sure if it worth it, any thoughts??
-
inspiredsports said to disconnect the dimensional tweeter not the dimensional drivers too.
My SDA-2B's do not have a dimensional tweeter (by design-which is a newer design than the SDA2) and the sound stage is wide and the SDA effect is quite evident.
I know, I never said anything about the dimensional mids.
You SDA 2B's also have the tweeter centered between the drivers, which makes a big difference. That is why you sound stage is "quite evident."
If you don't have the older model SDA then you don't know. -
inspiredsports wrote: »Am I missing something? If the dimensional tweeter is only signal canceling, I'm not conceptualizing how that could narrow the soundstage.
I'm wondering if you noticed a volume or soundstage decrease. There may be a reason to bypass/remove the dimensional tweeters circuitry which might increase the volume of the stereo tweeter, but are you sure you mean "soundstage" ??
I wish Ben felt good enough to join in as I know he has deep experience with exactly this issue.
You can't make a pair of SDA 2's into 2Bs just by unplugging a tweeter. They are just different speakers. Just as my 1A's will never sound like a 1C, they are just different speakers. Just because one design doesn't have dimensional tweeters doesn't mean that we should go back and unplug the tweets on all the older models. I don't think Polk would design a speaker that if you unplug the Dimensional tweeters, they sound better. It just makes no sense.
I talked with Ben a while ago when I was thinking about disconnecting the Dims. I bypassed them and put a 2.7omh resistor in place of the 3.5 to bring the highs back up. I listened to them like that for probably 2 weeks and it just wasn't the same. It totally takes away the 3 dimensional effect. -
You can't make a pair of SDA 2's into 2Bs just by unplugging a tweeter. They are just different speakers. Just as my 1A's will never sound like a 1C, they are just different speakers. Just because one design doesn't have dimensional tweeters doesn't mean that we should go back and unplug the tweets on all the older models. I don't think Polk would design a speaker that if you unplug the Dimensional tweeters, they sound better. It just makes no sense.
I talked with Ben a while ago when I was thinking about disconnecting the Dims. I bypassed them and put a 2.7omh resistor in place of the 3.5 to bring the highs back up. I listened to them like that for probably 2 weeks and it just wasn't the same. It totally takes away the 3 dimensional effect.
I agree about not unplugging the dimensional tweeter. I tried that and didn't like the result at all. I didn't do the XO mods to increase the volume on the stereo tweeter, but a good part of the SDA soundstage did go away so I quickly abandoned that path. The tweeters are putting out quite a bit of the sound spectrum. My personal belief is that Polk didn't stop using them because they were unnecessary; I think they stopped cause those frequencies echo a lot and people generally preferred the SDA effect restricted to lower frequencies. I agree that there's a lot of engineering that isn't taken into account if you just unplug the dimensional tweeter.
IMO, since there are more SDA's without the dimensional than with, just keep an eye out for a pair without rather than trying to Frankenstein a pair that was made to have it. I'm sure someone like Ben would have a different opinion, but he has a level of skill and understanding that most don't.
Kchilaka and I seem to be living parallel lives here. I have the original 2's in a room with similar dimensions. I started off driving them on a small receiver and then a few different small amps (100wpc or less). Two things made a big difference for me. 1) I put them on a high current 200wpc B&K amp, and 2) I plugged the amp directly into the wall instead of a Monster surge protector. I was amazed at how much the surge protector killed the bass. At the end of it, the SDA's had comparable bass to a pair of Cerwin Vega 3-ways with a 10" active bass woofer. It's still not the best, tightest bass I've heard from a speaker, but it is much better balanced with the SL2000's highs, which can be harsh. (I'm waiting to do the tweeter upgrades myself.)
Ultimately, I agree with the folks advocating a big, heavy, high current amp. Something with a big toroidal transformer and some beer can sized caps. But I'm very curious to hear Kchilaka's impressions of the Panny with the SDAs or any other speaker. -
I have the same model SDA2's. They are power hungry. Especially with the third driver. Later SDA2's aren't quite so hungry.
That being said does your Receiver have a speaker size setup? My Panasonic does and it makes a huge difference in bass and mid response.
The 3rd driver has nothing to do with it. The fact that they are 4 ohm loads does. Driving those speakers with an AVR/receiver is a seriously bad idea as very few are rated to drive a 4 ohm load. You are overworking the amplifier into an early death and severely compromising the sound quality.You can't make a pair of SDA 2's into 2Bs just by unplugging a tweeter. They are just different speakers. Just as my 1A's will never sound like a 1C, they are just different speakers. Just because one design doesn't have dimensional tweeters doesn't mean that we should go back and unplug the tweets on all the older models. I don't think Polk would design a speaker that if you unplug the Dimensional tweeters, they sound better. It just makes no sense.
I talked with Ben a while ago when I was thinking about disconnecting the Dims. I bypassed them and put a 2.7omh resistor in place of the 3.5 to bring the highs back up. I listened to them like that for probably 2 weeks and it just wasn't the same. It totally takes away the 3 dimensional effect.
It makes perfect sense, but you have to adjust the sound level of the stereo tweeter as you did and you should relocate the stereo tweeter so that it is in the middle. It doesn't take away the 3 dimensional effect, it takes away the very un-natural effect that the dimensional tweeter adds. Which is exactly why Polk did not use a dimensional tweeter in subsequent models.Something with a big toroidal transformer and some beer can sized caps.
Big trannie(s), yes. Beer can sized caps, no way. Lots of small sized caps are much faster resulting in greater speed/pace to the music and a tighter bass response.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
You can't make a pair of SDA 2's into 2Bs just by unplugging a tweeter. They are just different speakers.....
Who said that they would become 2B's?
I used my 2B's as an example that a dimensional tweeter is not the only thing that makes the SDA effect work.
It has never been recommended to disconnect the dim. tweets on the SDA-SRS 2. I'm sure that individual XO design has a lot to do with what will work and what won't. If others have done it and were happy with the result, why not pass on the info.
Obviously anything one hears is going to be completely subjective. An example would be how so many seem to prefer the RD0-194s as an upgrade tweeter to the subjectively bright SL2000's, but not everybody does. Some are quite happy with the SL2000.
I know you didn't, you saidI know, I never said anything about the dimensional mids.
...
I can't imagine they sound just like regular speakers when the dimensional drivers are still in place....They just sound like regular speakers with those tweeters disconnected...
Well apparently not....If you don't have the older model SDA then you don't know....____________________
This post is a natural product. The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects.
HT:Onkyo 805, Emotiva XPA-5, Mitsu 52" 1080p DLP / polkaudio RTi12, CSIa6, FXi3, uPro4K
2-chnl : Pio DV-46AV (SACD), Dodd ELP, Emotiva XPA-1s, XPA-2, Odyssey Khartago, LSi9, SDA-SRS 2 :cool:, SB Duet, MSB & Monarchy DACs, Yamaha PX3 TT, SAE Tuner...
Pool: Atrium 60's/45's -
I can't imagine they sound just like regular speakers when the dimensional drivers are still in place.
They do.
I can't imagine speculating about how speakers sound if I've never heard them. -
They do not sound like regular speakers with the dimensional tweeter disconnected. I know this because I've done it.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I forgot, you've done everything.
-
I don't even know why there is a forum. Everyone should send there questions and discussions to your personal email and accept what comes back as law.
-
Big trannie(s), yes. Beer can sized caps, no way. Lots of small sized caps are much faster resulting in greater speed/pace to the music and a tighter bass response.
I think it depends somewhat on the amp. McCormack has some truly amazing designs that use small caps and are blazingly fast at providing the needed power for any kind of transient. NAD can be good that way too for cheaper, but honestly, I had a NAD 100wpc Power Envelope amp that couldn't touch the B&K with it's big caps. And the newer B&K amps definitely don't sound clumsy on fast transients. I think like everything else in audio it depends more on the overall design than on any one part.
One thing to look for if you want tight bass and trust the marketing numbers is the damping factor of an amp. I have personally noticed a correlation between a better quality of bass and higher damping factor (say >300). -
Relax chief,Finut probably has more experience with SDA's than 20 of us put together. He's just giving some guidence, not preaching gospel.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
I forgot, you've done everything.I don't even know why there is a forum. Everyone should send there questions and discussions to your personal email and accept what comes back as law.
Where the hell did this come from????:rolleyes:
Jesse knows his SDA's... -
Who's Jesse?
-
On3s&Z3r0s wrote: »I think it depends somewhat on the amp. McCormack has some truly amazing designs that use small caps and are blazingly fast at providing the needed power for any kind of transient. NAD can be good that way too for cheaper, but honestly, I had a NAD 100wpc Power Envelope amp that couldn't touch the B&K with it's big caps. And the newer B&K amps definitely don't sound clumsy on fast transients. I think like everything else in audio it depends more on the overall design than on any one part.
I'll have to take your word as to the differences between those two amps. Is the B&K rated at the same 100wpc?One thing to look for if you want tight bass and trust the marketing numbers is the damping factor of an amp. I have personally noticed a correlation between a better quality of bass and higher damping factor (say >300).
I think you'd be surprised at the miniscule difference between a damping factor of 10 verses one of 2000. Only when it's below 5 does it become an issue.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »Where the hell did this come from????:rolleyes:
It comes from the fact that I added him to my BOZO list about 20 minutes after his first post.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Here's a good read on damping factors.
http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/damping-factor-effects-on-system-responsePolitical Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I'll have to take your word as to the differences between those two amps. Is the B&K rated at the same 100wpc?
I think you'd be surprised at the miniscule difference between a damping factor of 10 verses one of 2000. Only when it's below 5 does it become an issue.
I've never been able to make heads or tails of NAD's specs. It was a 2200 and the specs say it's rated at 100WPC @ 8ohms. Then they say clipping power is 140W, and IHF dynamic power is 400W @ 8ohms and 600W @ 4ohms. The B&K 200.2 is rated 225WPC @ 8ohms and 375WPC @ 4ohms. So, I have no idea which is technically more powerful.
All that aside, the B&K weighs at least 10 lbs more and looks like it would keep going if Harry Callahan unloaded six rounds into it. It's also probably 10 years newer, a bunch prettier on the inside, and on the front it has a single push button and blue light to tell you it's on. I know rationally that none of that means anything for the amp's performance, but all that feels like it's telling me that the box is there to do nothing but shovel gobs of power into whatever speakers are hooked to it. The important thing is that the sonic difference was big enough that I wasn't the only person to notice it.
To be fair, though, I tried another big cap amp (a Hafler), and it seemed to take a long time to warm up and always sounded a little sluggish to me. But, the Hafler had better bass than the NAD too. Also, I don't mean to suggest that a big gorilla of an amp is best for every speaker. While I'm mucking around with my SDA's I have a pair of Vandersteens hooked up to an even smaller NAD receiver, and they sound great. There doesn't seem to be any benefit to putting the B&K on those. -
Did you check the crossover settings on the receiver(as it is an AVR, and Sony crap at that). Sonys even though they have a 4 ohm setting do not like it. Crap They don't like an 8 ohm load either(just ask my ex-boss). Sony might have the front speakers set to small as the default, you might want to check, and change it to large if it's not. My SDA's are a little louder in the 40-60 hz range, but that is because they are only inches from the corners, but it helps to reinforce the lower freqs in movies. At the very min, I would get a receiver from one of the high end manufactures(not the junk you see in the stores). Adcom, Marantz,Etc. If you want the most out of them you would be better off going with separate preamp, and amp. A lot on here like the Adcom GFA 555, which is a great amp, and if your a bass head/freak, then that is the amp to get, If you want even more accurate soundstage with a lot of detail I can recommend a parasound HCA-1000
-
Here's a good read on damping factors.
http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/damping-factor-effects-on-system-response
Here is a classic read on damping factor of amps.. This document is 35 years old and so well written.. PDF Warning..
http://documents.jordan-usa.com/Famous-Articles/Damping-Damping-Factor-and-Damn-Nonsense-Floyd-Toole.pdf -
dudeinaroom wrote: »Did you check the crossover settings on the receiver(as it is an AVR, and Sony crap at that). Sonys even though they have a 4 ohm setting do not like it. Crap They don't like an 8 ohm load either(just ask my ex-boss). Sony might have the front speakers set to small as the default, you might want to check, and change it to large if it's not. My SDA's are a little louder in the 40-60 hz range, but that is because they are only inches from the corners, but it helps to reinforce the lower freqs in movies. At the very min, I would get a receiver from one of the high end manufactures(not the junk you see in the stores). Adcom, Marantz,Etc. If you want the most out of them you would be better off going with separate preamp, and amp. A lot on here like the Adcom GFA 555, which is a great amp, and if your a bass head/freak, then that is the amp to get, If you want even more accurate soundstage with a lot of detail I can recommend a parasound HCA-1000
Alright folks. Got my Panasonic XR55s hooked up today and while I have yet to do some critical evaluation, here are some preliminary observations.
* The Panny is light, less than half the weight of the Sony DA30ES. Probably 10-15 lbs.
* When I replaced the Sony with the Panny and I was swapping the wiring, I noticed that the speaker wires were loose in the banana plugs..arghhh..I hope that was not the problem ( I do hate these coaxial screw type banana plugs).
* Got it plugged in and played a familiar song to listen for any problems. The Panny feels like it has power to spare to drive the 4 ohm loads the SDAs present. Running the Panasonic in Dual Amp mode. This is not the same as biwiring or biamping, it is some kind of internal logic that routes the power that would have otherwise gone to the surrounds, to the fronts. The speakers sound tight and the edgy brightness seems to have mellowed (need more time to evaluate).
* Bass response seems to have gone up. Did the tone test sweep at 30 hz and I shook the walls enough to turn it down asap. 20hz is also louder than before although substantially softer than 30hz and 40hz. I think the -3db point on these speakers is somewhere between 30 and 40hz.
* I do seem to have some kind of funky acoustics or level mismatch or speaker wire problems going on. With the sony, the right was a little louder than the left (I assumed it was the proximity of a wall), with the panny, the left channel seems a little louder.. Wierd.. Maybe my imagination. Either way I am going to redo the speaker cable terminations tomorrow to make sure things are tight and nice and I will post further observations... -
I personally agree with Joe08867 - they are power hungry. I started with a Marantz 2270 and then added an adcom 545 at 100 wpc. Niether generated a lot of bass with my SDA2's. Lately I went to a Parasound 1500a at 205 wpc and now I have bass and they sound incredible.2 CH
Parasound 2100 preamp
Polk Lsi15s
powered by a
Parasound HCA 1500a
2 Passive JBL 10" Subs
powered by a second
Parasound HCA 1500a
HT
Denon 3311-CI
Polk Lsi15 Fronts
Polk LsiC Center
Polk Lsi7 Surrounds
2 Passive Polk 10" Subs
powered by ADCOM 545 -
I love the summary in the damping factor article... choosing an amp based on damping factor is like choosing a sports car because it's red instead of black. You might still end up with a good car, but for a completely irrelevant reason. I can live with that!
Now I really want to try one of these Panny's, if they had pre-outs it'd be a slam dunk. I guess they just ran out of space on the back of the little bugger. Are they still available new anywhere or do you have to look for them on the used market?
This is unlikely to be your issue, but when I got my SDA 2's the interconnect sockets on them had been manhandled enough that the plastic of the socket had broken in a few spots. Without the plastic keeping the contacts inside the socket tight, the interconnect cable wasn't making good contact. When I would mess with them, or run them loud enough for wall shaking, I would get drop-outs on the dimensional drivers. I just thought of it because you mentioned one speaker sounding louder than the other, which was how I figured out there was an obvious problem.
One way to know for sure whether the dimensionals are working or not is to adjust the balance all the way one direction or the other. When the balance is all the way right, you should still hear sound in the left speaker and vice versa (not at full volume of course because you'll only be hearing the dimensionals). If you don't hear the opposite speaker your interconnect has issues. One thing that surprised me was that the interconnect could be working in one direction and not the other. -
I have the XR45 for my ht setup but tried my SDA2's on it. It definitely drove them well, not as well as my Rotel RB 1080 especially at higher listening levels but they sounded nice with it. I was surprised by the bass output with the Panny.
I would disconnect the Dimensional tweeter. I haven't gotten around to updating my cabinets to eliminate it all together but not hearing it is a blessing. That tweeter can be hard on the ears.
Plus one on what On3s&Z3r0s said about the interconnect cable. Make sure it is tight.
Happy Listening. -
i placed my speakers closer to the wall last night....and wow! big difference! still imaging and soundstaging like a ****...but the bottom end is where it should be:D and not just on some CDs as before..i went from abt 8" to 4" or so....i guess the big factor is/was, my house is CBS...concrete block...gotta get some spikes now;)
-
it could also be that some of your mid bass drivers are leaking air.. this would account for the loss of bass. tighten each screw on each mid bass driver and also on the passive radiator.
push the passive in slightly and see if all the mid bass drivers expand, then slowly release their air.
also be sure you have the left SDA on the left side and right on the right.. it's easy to get them turned around.
PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin: -
I tried pushing in the PR on my Sdass and all the drivers quickly go back, they do not take 4 seconds or so to relax. So I guess I am leaking air, but not sure where
-
Mike, yes they could be leaking air.. i have owned several models of SDA's, and some of the mids deflate faster than others... not necessarily meaning their was a leak somewhere. but you want the them to slowly go in again if possible.PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin: -
Plugged them up to my Technics SA-600 receiver and they sounded flat, no treble at all. I have the connect cable hooked up as well that I bought from Polk. No money to get replacement drivers at the moment. They are sitting in the garage for now till I get a job.
