Pretty old amplifier with LSi25

gnoorts
gnoorts Posts: 20
edited June 2010 in Speakers
So I was thinking about getting a pair LSi25. I've done some small research about the speakers, enough to know that they're 4 ohms. The amplifier I use is pretty old, by way of being a hand-me-down from my dad. I know it was a pretty high end integrated-amp in its time, but you you guys think that it could safely drive the 25's, given its age (from the 70's)?

This is the amp I'm using: http://thevintageknob.org/YAMAHA/CA1000/CA1000.html

Thanks again!
Post edited by gnoorts on
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Comments

  • gnoorts
    gnoorts Posts: 20
    edited June 2010
    Oh, I forgot to mention. I don't plan on using these for HT, just a 2.0 stereo music setup.
  • PerfectCreature
    PerfectCreature Posts: 1,456
    edited June 2010
    I don't see why not?
    It looks like a solid amp.
    The specs look promising, and it by chance your speakers do get damages polk send you whatever you need and quick at no charge. 5 year warranty are amazing.
    Receiver
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  • PSOVLSK
    PSOVLSK Posts: 5,021
    edited June 2010
    My brother used to have something similar back in the late 70's early 80's. Very cool to see it again.

    I would think it would be fine with the 25's, but I have no real basis for my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.
    Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden
  • wetcoast
    wetcoast Posts: 64
    edited June 2010
    85W at 4 ohms both driven will not do the 25's justice.
    Speakers: Polk LSi 25, LSiC, LSiFX
    Sub: Maelstrom X 18" DIY
    Amps: Sunfire Sig Seven, Behringer EP-4000
    Processor: Integra DHC-80.1
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  • Monster Jam
    Monster Jam Posts: 919
    edited June 2010
    ....right.

    Hook them up and give them a spin. If you don't like what you hear, go and get a different amp.

    I've been running my LSi15s (4 of them and an LSiC as well) off of an AVR for exactly 4 years with no problems.
    Do you hear that buzzing noise? :confused:
  • Montoya
    Montoya Posts: 506
    edited June 2010
    Those speakers deserve a good amp without one your not going to get the full potential out of them. Take your time do it right and you will be ahead of the game. I went the quick and easy route and learned the hard way.
  • Jim Shearer
    Jim Shearer Posts: 369
    edited June 2010
    gnoorts,

    That is one SWEET amp! Don't let anyone give you grief about it. When folks now days think about a receiver or integrated amp, they are thinking about current products they see at places like Best Buy, which don't begin to compare with the big, heavy old iron from what I think of as the golden age of stereo.

    I have a Yamaha CR-1000 receiver, which is very much like your amp, but w/ a tuner added. It's rated at 70 wpc, both channels driven full band width. On the bench it will put 120 wpc into 8 ohms, both channels driven, before clipping. It can throw 500w transients. That conservative rating and head room to produce transients means your LSi25's will you just great on that amp!

    If you want to buy a comparable amp today, expect to pay $3000 or more...

    Cheers, Jim
    A day without music is like a day without food.
  • gnoorts
    gnoorts Posts: 20
    edited June 2010
    gnoorts,

    That is one SWEET amp! Don't let anyone give you grief about it. When folks now days think about a receiver or integrated amp, they are thinking about current products they see at places like Best Buy, which don't begin to compare with the big, heavy old iron from what I think of as the golden age of stereo.

    I have a Yamaha CR-1000 receiver, which is very much like your amp, but w/ a tuner added. It's rated at 70 wpc, both channels driven full band width. On the bench it will put 120 wpc into 8 ohms, both channels driven, before clipping. It can throw 500w transients. That conservative rating and head room to produce transients means your LSi25's will you just great on that amp!

    If you want to buy a comparable amp today, expect to pay $3000 or more...

    Cheers, Jim

    Really, 120 Watts? Why would they underrate it so much? In the end that's only a good thing for me, but I'm just curious why they would do that.
  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,256
    edited June 2010
    Whether they sound good or not is a different story, but if the amp is capable of driving a 4 ohm load and has decent specs, it should work.
  • Jim Shearer
    Jim Shearer Posts: 369
    edited June 2010
    Gnoorts,

    Really. It was a different time, and Yamaha was working on making SOTA, TOL products to be the crown jewels of their product line. The goal was quality and performance w/o the hype connected to mass market goods.

    Yes, it will drive 4 ohms, no problem. It should be fine at any sane SPL. But if you want to go deaf, get a bigger amp AND bigger speakers.

    It suspect most of the young guys around here really don't know what this is.

    Cheers, Jim
    A day without music is like a day without food.
  • gnoorts
    gnoorts Posts: 20
    edited June 2010
    For all those that are curious, the CA-1000 powers the LSi25's perfectly. When you combine it with a receiver that has a sub pre-out and only use it to power the midranges, the CA powers through it with no problems at all
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,903
    edited June 2010
    ....right.

    Hook them up and give them a spin. If you don't like what you hear, go and get a different amp.

    I've been running my LSi15s (4 of them and an LSiC as well) off of an AVR for exactly 4 years with no problems.

    Yeah,but when you do,and you will,it will be very costly. To each his own though. Good luck to you.

    To the OP, I would shoot for something with alittle more wattage. Yes,you can run them with it,but they'll beg for more.
    HT SYSTEM-
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  • cheddar
    cheddar Posts: 2,390
    edited June 2010
    If you want to buy a comparable amp today, expect to pay $3000 or more...
    Cheers, Jim

    That's a pretty big endorsement. You could by a new in box Halo A21 for only $2299 retail. And it's much less used as are many other quality amps.
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,903
    edited June 2010
    It may have been a good amp,but there are still better out there at reasonable prices. Heck, look at the other thread about picking up a used Mac for a grand total of 700 bucks invested. While that amp the OP is talking about will drive his LSI's, it won't do it enough to bring out their full potential. Just my .02.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,573
    edited June 2010
    I think you'd be fine and I wouldn't hesitate to run it....make your decision after you hear it. To just sit around and guess and wonder doesn't solve anything.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
  • Ric5811
    Ric5811 Posts: 400
    edited June 2010
    gnoorts,

    That is one SWEET amp! Don't let anyone give you grief about it. When folks now days think about a receiver or integrated amp, they are thinking about current products they see at places like Best Buy, which don't begin to compare with the big, heavy old iron from what I think of as the golden age of stereo.

    I have a Yamaha CR-1000 receiver, which is very much like your amp, but w/ a tuner added. It's rated at 70 wpc, both channels driven full band width. On the bench it will put 120 wpc into 8 ohms, both channels driven, before clipping. It can throw 500w transients. That conservative rating and head room to produce transients means your LSi25's will you just great on that amp!

    If you want to buy a comparable amp today, expect to pay $3000 or more...

    Cheers, Jim


    I'm with Jim, products back in those days were a far cry from what you see now.

    Most gear was rated conservatively, because there wasn't the HT hype and big box retailers everywhere. The audio circuit was more refined and picky. And there were a lot more specialty retailers. Not this disposable crap today, you see everywhere.

    Manufacturers had to bring their "A" game to get sales, meaning quality sound, not overhyped watt ratings and features.

    Jim is completely right on this.
    Polk RTi A7's FrontPolk CSi A4 CenterPolk Tsi 100's SurroundOnkyo TX-RZ50:)Oppo BDP 83 (Collecting dust)MIT Terminator 3 Speaker CableMIT Terminator 2 IC's (Oppo 2 chan)Signal Cable HT TWOEpson PowerLite Home Cinema 1080Hisense 55 U8GBelkin PF 60 Power Center
  • cheddar
    cheddar Posts: 2,390
    edited June 2010
    Ric5811 wrote: »
    I'm with Jim, products back in those days were a far cry from what you see now.

    Most gear was rated conservatively, because there wasn't the HT hype and big box retailers everywhere. The audio circuit was more refined and picky. And there were a lot more specialty retailers. Not this disposable crap today, you see everywhere.

    Manufacturers had to bring their "A" game to get sales, meaning quality sound, not overhyped watt ratings and features.

    Jim is completely right on this.

    I'm all for trying out this amp with the LSis. If it sounds great in the system, then it's money saved. But is it really only comparable to say a Bryston at $3000 and over? Seems there are many more newer options out there if the OP eventually found something lacking with this amp. But if the OP is satisfied, like I said, money saved. Would you consider the Halo A21 to have overhyped watt ratings and not perform as well as the OP's amp? Just curious as I must admit to never owning or sampling an amp of this vintage.
  • camp21178
    camp21178 Posts: 273
    edited June 2010
    Ric5811 wrote: »
    I'm with Jim, products back in those days were a far cry from what you see now.

    Most gear was rated conservatively, because there wasn't the HT hype and big box retailers everywhere. The audio circuit was more refined and picky. And there were a lot more specialty retailers. Not this disposable crap today, you see everywhere.

    Manufacturers had to bring their "A" game to get sales, meaning quality sound, not overhyped watt ratings and features.

    Jim is completely right on this.

    I'm with you on this one. Older amps have huge power supplies and big powerful output transistors. I remember a Stereo review test of a Harman Kardon 45 wpc receiver in the 80's that pushed out a 272 watt undistorted peak waveform at 1 khz. Headroom!
  • Ric5811
    Ric5811 Posts: 400
    edited June 2010
    camp21178 wrote: »
    I'm with you on this one. Older amps have huge power supplies and big powerful output transistors. I remember a Stereo review test of a Harman Kardon 45 wpc receiver in the 80's that pushed out a 272 watt undistorted peak waveform at 1 khz. Headroom!

    Exactly! My old NAD 3020 rated at 20 watts! could push a lot of speakers very good, even very demanding speakers.
    Polk RTi A7's FrontPolk CSi A4 CenterPolk Tsi 100's SurroundOnkyo TX-RZ50:)Oppo BDP 83 (Collecting dust)MIT Terminator 3 Speaker CableMIT Terminator 2 IC's (Oppo 2 chan)Signal Cable HT TWOEpson PowerLite Home Cinema 1080Hisense 55 U8GBelkin PF 60 Power Center
  • Ric5811
    Ric5811 Posts: 400
    edited June 2010
    cheddar wrote: »
    I'm all for trying out this amp with the LSis. If it sounds great in the system, then it's money saved. But is it really only comparable to say a Bryston at $3000 and over? Seems there are many more newer options out there if the OP eventually found something lacking with this amp. But if the OP is satisfied, like I said, money saved. Would you consider the Halo A21 to have overhyped watt ratings and not perform as well as the OP's amp? Just curious as I must admit to never owning or sampling an amp of this vintage.

    Some of those companies have not really changed there designs overtime, those that have been around since the 80's, some have had to for profit margin reasons, outsourcing etc.

    But he probably will eventually change, don't we all? But it will be fine to get him started, have enough power.
    Polk RTi A7's FrontPolk CSi A4 CenterPolk Tsi 100's SurroundOnkyo TX-RZ50:)Oppo BDP 83 (Collecting dust)MIT Terminator 3 Speaker CableMIT Terminator 2 IC's (Oppo 2 chan)Signal Cable HT TWOEpson PowerLite Home Cinema 1080Hisense 55 U8GBelkin PF 60 Power Center
  • cheddar
    cheddar Posts: 2,390
    edited June 2010
    So perhaps a better comparison of this vintage amp might be how well it performs to 'overhyped' receivers and gear closer to $1000, not modern $3000+ amps...
  • Ric5811
    Ric5811 Posts: 400
    edited June 2010
    cheddar wrote: »
    So perhaps a better comparison of this vintage amp might be how well it performs to 'overhyped' receivers and gear closer to $1000, not modern $3000+ amps...

    Not at all, in today's dollars that amp would be the same as those 3k amps. But Yammies came up a little short back then, most of Japan SS did, a little to electronic. Probably the best was Nakamichi back then in Japanese SS. PA-7 was a wonderful amp, but still had a smidge of electronic.
    Polk RTi A7's FrontPolk CSi A4 CenterPolk Tsi 100's SurroundOnkyo TX-RZ50:)Oppo BDP 83 (Collecting dust)MIT Terminator 3 Speaker CableMIT Terminator 2 IC's (Oppo 2 chan)Signal Cable HT TWOEpson PowerLite Home Cinema 1080Hisense 55 U8GBelkin PF 60 Power Center
  • cheddar
    cheddar Posts: 2,390
    edited June 2010
    I guess I'm talking about a direct performance comparison to something like a Bryston today, while you guys are talking about what a Bryston would have been way back then.
  • gnoorts
    gnoorts Posts: 20
    edited June 2010
    cheddar wrote: »
    So perhaps a better comparison of this vintage amp might be how well it performs to 'overhyped' receivers and gear closer to $1000, not modern $3000+ amps...

    I don't want to say that I'm anywhere need an audiophile, but from what I understand, the Class A mode on this amp is a pretty exclusive feature, modern or otherwise. I will say that the sound of Class A is phenomenal and noticeably different than that of its "Normal" operating mode. So a good benchmark would be to find an amp that has Class A operation on it.
  • cheddar
    cheddar Posts: 2,390
    edited June 2010
    gnoorts wrote: »
    So a good benchmark would be to find an amp that has Class A operation on it.

    The moderately priced Parasound A21 I've mentioned several times is pure Class A up to 8 watts per channel. Then Class A/B after that.

    Keep in mind, that driving my LSi15s, I rarely would go above 5 watts per channel in a family room open to a kitchen. If I really wanted to watch a movie loud, the amp may put out around 10 watts per channel only during extreme sequences. Anything above that was increasing degrees of audio fatigue and discomfort, just to see how hard I could push the system. So the Parasound would almost always be in Class A operation in average size rooms with sane listening levels with the associated higher output in heat.

    Are you saying your vintage amp can operate in pure Class A all the way up to its rated output?
  • gnoorts
    gnoorts Posts: 20
    edited June 2010
    cheddar wrote: »
    Are you saying your vintage amp can operate in pure Class A all the way up to its rated output?

    The amp is a pretty underrated as far as its power output goes. I have used this amp and a Yamaha rx-v365 to power the same speakers (RTi A1's). The rx-v365 is rated at 100 watts, which I believe is right. The vintage Yamaha was able to go drive them WAY louder in Class AB, and very close to that in Class A. The amp is only rated at 70 Watts in Class AB and 15 Watts in Class A at 8 ohms, but I firmly believe that is not an accurate measurement at all. Unfortunately, I don't have a way of measuring the power output of either of those, but using them side by side with 2 sets of identical speakers, the vintage amp put out more power hands down.
    So to answer your question, I don't think it could operate in pure Class A all the way up to the power handling capabilities of the LSi25's but I wouldn't be surprised if it could do anywhere from 50-75 Watts in Class A.
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,053
    edited June 2010
    gnoorts wrote: »
    I don't want to say that I'm anywhere need an audiophile, but from what I understand, the Class A mode on this amp is a pretty exclusive feature, modern or otherwise. I will say that the sound of Class A is phenomenal and noticeably different than that of its "Normal" operating mode. So a good benchmark would be to find an amp that has Class A operation on it.

    Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's class A/B just like any other amp. It does not run in true class A; it's a marketing gimmick Yamaha used. It doesn;t run 15wpc in class A with those teenie tiny heat sinks. True class A is usually single ended and you would need a lot of heat sinking to dissipate the heat full class A runs at.

    Give it a shot, listen and then decide if it has enough power to run the LSi's. Just looking at specs I'm not hopeful, but everyone's expectation, room size and listening habits are different.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,053
    edited June 2010
    gnoorts wrote: »
    So to answer your question, I don't think it could operate in pure Class A all the way up to the power handling capabilities of the LSi25's but I wouldn't be surprised if it could do anywhere from 50-75 Watts in Class A.

    Nope not even close to 50-75 in class A. Think close to 5-7 wpc in class A/B biased into push/pull class A for those 5-7 watts and soon as you hit the 5-7 watt mark it reverts to class B.

    My Aleph is 30wpc single ended (not push/pull) class A and the heat sinks are huge and they dissipate 200wpc at idle. I can raise my room temp by 3-4* and you can't touch the heat sinks for more than about 5-7 seconds with out discomfort. It's designed this way since single ended class A is the least efficient design, but to my ears sounds the best. 50-75 watts in class A you'd need gigantic heat sinking and you dissipate close to 400-600 watts at idle. That's just idling with no music playing. Single ended class A is the least efficient.

    H9

    P.s. This is what the chassis on my amp looks like to run 30wpc single ended class A and those heatsinks are still painful to the touch after 10 secs.

    m2.jpg
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,053
    edited June 2010
    Plus you only have 36,000 pF of filter capacitance and 270VA power transformer and a current limiting circuit.

    I am not trying to cut your gear down just pointing out the specs and making a logical statement based on those specs. It's not possible for all the reasons I mentioned for this to run in class A for more than a few watts then revert to A/B push pull operation or have much headroom or produce a lot of current which the LSi's need dearly to perform best.

    Good luck and if it sounds good to you that's all that matters
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • gnoorts
    gnoorts Posts: 20
    edited June 2010
    It seems like heiney9 knows what he's talking about haha. I guess a more accurate description would be that when the amp was switched to Class A, it was able to push out a good amount of power, maybe while not being in total Class A, with a noticeable gain in detail when switched from "Normal" mode.