Pretty old amplifier with LSi25

gnoorts

So I was thinking about getting a pair LSi25. I've done some small research about the speakers, enough to know that they're 4 ohms. The amplifier I use is pretty old, by way of being a hand-me-down from my dad. I know it was a pretty high end integrated-amp in its time, but you you guys think that it could safely drive the 25's, given its age (from the 70's)?

This is the amp I'm using: http://thevintageknob.org/YAMAHA/CA1000/CA1000.html

Thanks again!

gnoorts

Oh, I forgot to mention. I don't plan on using these for HT, just a 2.0 stereo music setup.

PerfectCreature

I don't see why not?
It looks like a solid amp.
The specs look promising, and it by chance your speakers do get damages polk send you whatever you need and quick at no charge. 5 year warranty are amazing.

PSOVLSK

My brother used to have something similar back in the late 70's early 80's. Very cool to see it again.

I would think it would be fine with the 25's, but I have no real basis for my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.

wetcoast

85W at 4 ohms both driven will not do the 25's justice.

Monster Jam

....right.

Hook them up and give them a spin. If you don't like what you hear, go and get a different amp.

I've been running my LSi15s (4 of them and an LSiC as well) off of an AVR for exactly 4 years with no problems.

Montoya

Those speakers deserve a good amp without one your not going to get the full potential out of them. Take your time do it right and you will be ahead of the game. I went the quick and easy route and learned the hard way.

Jim Shearer

gnoorts,

That is one SWEET amp! Don't let anyone give you grief about it. When folks now days think about a receiver or integrated amp, they are thinking about current products they see at places like Best Buy, which don't begin to compare with the big, heavy old iron from what I think of as the golden age of stereo.

I have a Yamaha CR-1000 receiver, which is very much like your amp, but w/ a tuner added. It's rated at 70 wpc, both channels driven full band width. On the bench it will put 120 wpc into 8 ohms, both channels driven, before clipping. It can throw 500w transients. That conservative rating and head room to produce transients means your LSi25's will you just great on that amp!

If you want to buy a comparable amp today, expect to pay $3000 or more...

Cheers, Jim

gnoorts

Jim Shearer wrote: »

gnoorts,

That is one SWEET amp! Don't let anyone give you grief about it. When folks now days think about a receiver or integrated amp, they are thinking about current products they see at places like Best Buy, which don't begin to compare with the big, heavy old iron from what I think of as the golden age of stereo.

I have a Yamaha CR-1000 receiver, which is very much like your amp, but w/ a tuner added. It's rated at 70 wpc, both channels driven full band width. On the bench it will put 120 wpc into 8 ohms, both channels driven, before clipping. It can throw 500w transients. That conservative rating and head room to produce transients means your LSi25's will you just great on that amp!

If you want to buy a comparable amp today, expect to pay $3000 or more...

Cheers, Jim

Really, 120 Watts? Why would they underrate it so much? In the end that's only a good thing for me, but I'm just curious why they would do that.

zingo

Whether they sound good or not is a different story, but if the amp is capable of driving a 4 ohm load and has decent specs, it should work.

Jim Shearer

Gnoorts,

Really. It was a different time, and Yamaha was working on making SOTA, TOL products to be the crown jewels of their product line. The goal was quality and performance w/o the hype connected to mass market goods.

Yes, it will drive 4 ohms, no problem. It should be fine at any sane SPL. But if you want to go deaf, get a bigger amp AND bigger speakers.

It suspect most of the young guys around here really don't know what this is.

Cheers, Jim

gnoorts

For all those that are curious, the CA-1000 powers the LSi25's perfectly. When you combine it with a receiver that has a sub pre-out and only use it to power the midranges, the CA powers through it with no problems at all

tonyb

Monster Jam wrote: »

....right.

Hook them up and give them a spin. If you don't like what you hear, go and get a different amp.

I've been running my LSi15s (4 of them and an LSiC as well) off of an AVR for exactly 4 years with no problems.

Yeah,but when you do,and you will,it will be very costly. To each his own though. Good luck to you.

To the OP, I would shoot for something with alittle more wattage. Yes,you can run them with it,but they'll beg for more.

cheddar

Jim Shearer wrote: »

If you want to buy a comparable amp today, expect to pay $3000 or more...
Cheers, Jim

That's a pretty big endorsement. You could by a new in box Halo A21 for only $2299 retail. And it's much less used as are many other quality amps.

tonyb

It may have been a good amp,but there are still better out there at reasonable prices. Heck, look at the other thread about picking up a used Mac for a grand total of 700 bucks invested. While that amp the OP is talking about will drive his LSI's, it won't do it enough to bring out their full potential. Just my .02.

dorokusai

I think you'd be fine and I wouldn't hesitate to run it....make your decision after you hear it. To just sit around and guess and wonder doesn't solve anything.

Ric5811

Jim Shearer wrote: »

gnoorts,

That is one SWEET amp! Don't let anyone give you grief about it. When folks now days think about a receiver or integrated amp, they are thinking about current products they see at places like Best Buy, which don't begin to compare with the big, heavy old iron from what I think of as the golden age of stereo.

I have a Yamaha CR-1000 receiver, which is very much like your amp, but w/ a tuner added. It's rated at 70 wpc, both channels driven full band width. On the bench it will put 120 wpc into 8 ohms, both channels driven, before clipping. It can throw 500w transients. That conservative rating and head room to produce transients means your LSi25's will you just great on that amp!

If you want to buy a comparable amp today, expect to pay $3000 or more...

Cheers, Jim

I'm with Jim, products back in those days were a far cry from what you see now.

Most gear was rated conservatively, because there wasn't the HT hype and big box retailers everywhere. The audio circuit was more refined and picky. And there were a lot more specialty retailers. Not this disposable crap today, you see everywhere.

Manufacturers had to bring their "A" game to get sales, meaning quality sound, not overhyped watt ratings and features.

Jim is completely right on this.

cheddar

Ric5811 wrote: »

I'm with Jim, products back in those days were a far cry from what you see now.

Most gear was rated conservatively, because there wasn't the HT hype and big box retailers everywhere. The audio circuit was more refined and picky. And there were a lot more specialty retailers. Not this disposable crap today, you see everywhere.

Manufacturers had to bring their "A" game to get sales, meaning quality sound, not overhyped watt ratings and features.

Jim is completely right on this.

I'm all for trying out this amp with the LSis. If it sounds great in the system, then it's money saved. But is it really only comparable to say a Bryston at $3000 and over? Seems there are many more newer options out there if the OP eventually found something lacking with this amp. But if the OP is satisfied, like I said, money saved. Would you consider the Halo A21 to have overhyped watt ratings and not perform as well as the OP's amp? Just curious as I must admit to never owning or sampling an amp of this vintage.

camp21178

Ric5811 wrote: »

I'm with Jim, products back in those days were a far cry from what you see now.

Most gear was rated conservatively, because there wasn't the HT hype and big box retailers everywhere. The audio circuit was more refined and picky. And there were a lot more specialty retailers. Not this disposable crap today, you see everywhere.

Manufacturers had to bring their "A" game to get sales, meaning quality sound, not overhyped watt ratings and features.

Jim is completely right on this.

I'm with you on this one. Older amps have huge power supplies and big powerful output transistors. I remember a Stereo review test of a Harman Kardon 45 wpc receiver in the 80's that pushed out a 272 watt undistorted peak waveform at 1 khz. Headroom!

Ric5811

camp21178 wrote: »

I'm with you on this one. Older amps have huge power supplies and big powerful output transistors. I remember a Stereo review test of a Harman Kardon 45 wpc receiver in the 80's that pushed out a 272 watt undistorted peak waveform at 1 khz. Headroom!

Exactly! My old NAD 3020 rated at 20 watts! could push a lot of speakers very good, even very demanding speakers.

Ric5811

cheddar wrote: »

I'm all for trying out this amp with the LSis. If it sounds great in the system, then it's money saved. But is it really only comparable to say a Bryston at $3000 and over? Seems there are many more newer options out there if the OP eventually found something lacking with this amp. But if the OP is satisfied, like I said, money saved. Would you consider the Halo A21 to have overhyped watt ratings and not perform as well as the OP's amp? Just curious as I must admit to never owning or sampling an amp of this vintage.

Some of those companies have not really changed there designs overtime, those that have been around since the 80's, some have had to for profit margin reasons, outsourcing etc.

But he probably will eventually change, don't we all? But it will be fine to get him started, have enough power.

cheddar

So perhaps a better comparison of this vintage amp might be how well it performs to 'overhyped' receivers and gear closer to $1000, not modern $3000+ amps...

Ric5811

cheddar wrote: »

So perhaps a better comparison of this vintage amp might be how well it performs to 'overhyped' receivers and gear closer to $1000, not modern $3000+ amps...

Not at all, in today's dollars that amp would be the same as those 3k amps. But Yammies came up a little short back then, most of Japan SS did, a little to electronic. Probably the best was Nakamichi back then in Japanese SS. PA-7 was a wonderful amp, but still had a smidge of electronic.

cheddar

I guess I'm talking about a direct performance comparison to something like a Bryston today, while you guys are talking about what a Bryston would have been way back then.

gnoorts

cheddar wrote: »

So perhaps a better comparison of this vintage amp might be how well it performs to 'overhyped' receivers and gear closer to $1000, not modern $3000+ amps...

I don't want to say that I'm anywhere need an audiophile, but from what I understand, the Class A mode on this amp is a pretty exclusive feature, modern or otherwise. I will say that the sound of Class A is phenomenal and noticeably different than that of its "Normal" operating mode. So a good benchmark would be to find an amp that has Class A operation on it.

cheddar

gnoorts wrote: »

So a good benchmark would be to find an amp that has Class A operation on it.

The moderately priced Parasound A21 I've mentioned several times is pure Class A up to 8 watts per channel. Then Class A/B after that.

Keep in mind, that driving my LSi15s, I rarely would go above 5 watts per channel in a family room open to a kitchen. If I really wanted to watch a movie loud, the amp may put out around 10 watts per channel only during extreme sequences. Anything above that was increasing degrees of audio fatigue and discomfort, just to see how hard I could push the system. So the Parasound would almost always be in Class A operation in average size rooms with sane listening levels with the associated higher output in heat.

Are you saying your vintage amp can operate in pure Class A all the way up to its rated output?

gnoorts

cheddar wrote: »

Are you saying your vintage amp can operate in pure Class A all the way up to its rated output?

The amp is a pretty underrated as far as its power output goes. I have used this amp and a Yamaha rx-v365 to power the same speakers (RTi A1's). The rx-v365 is rated at 100 watts, which I believe is right. The vintage Yamaha was able to go drive them WAY louder in Class AB, and very close to that in Class A. The amp is only rated at 70 Watts in Class AB and 15 Watts in Class A at 8 ohms, but I firmly believe that is not an accurate measurement at all. Unfortunately, I don't have a way of measuring the power output of either of those, but using them side by side with 2 sets of identical speakers, the vintage amp put out more power hands down.
So to answer your question, I don't think it could operate in pure Class A all the way up to the power handling capabilities of the LSi25's but I wouldn't be surprised if it could do anywhere from 50-75 Watts in Class A.

heiney9

gnoorts wrote: »

I don't want to say that I'm anywhere need an audiophile, but from what I understand, the Class A mode on this amp is a pretty exclusive feature, modern or otherwise. I will say that the sound of Class A is phenomenal and noticeably different than that of its "Normal" operating mode. So a good benchmark would be to find an amp that has Class A operation on it.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's class A/B just like any other amp. It does not run in true class A; it's a marketing gimmick Yamaha used. It doesn;t run 15wpc in class A with those teenie tiny heat sinks. True class A is usually single ended and you would need a lot of heat sinking to dissipate the heat full class A runs at.

Give it a shot, listen and then decide if it has enough power to run the LSi's. Just looking at specs I'm not hopeful, but everyone's expectation, room size and listening habits are different.

H9

heiney9

gnoorts wrote: »

So to answer your question, I don't think it could operate in pure Class A all the way up to the power handling capabilities of the LSi25's but I wouldn't be surprised if it could do anywhere from 50-75 Watts in Class A.

Nope not even close to 50-75 in class A. Think close to 5-7 wpc in class A/B biased into push/pull class A for those 5-7 watts and soon as you hit the 5-7 watt mark it reverts to class B.

My Aleph is 30wpc single ended (not push/pull) class A and the heat sinks are huge and they dissipate 200wpc at idle. I can raise my room temp by 3-4* and you can't touch the heat sinks for more than about 5-7 seconds with out discomfort. It's designed this way since single ended class A is the least efficient design, but to my ears sounds the best. 50-75 watts in class A you'd need gigantic heat sinking and you dissipate close to 400-600 watts at idle. That's just idling with no music playing. Single ended class A is the least efficient.

H9

P.s. This is what the chassis on my amp looks like to run 30wpc single ended class A and those heatsinks are still painful to the touch after 10 secs.

heiney9

Plus you only have 36,000 pF of filter capacitance and 270VA power transformer and a current limiting circuit.

I am not trying to cut your gear down just pointing out the specs and making a logical statement based on those specs. It's not possible for all the reasons I mentioned for this to run in class A for more than a few watts then revert to A/B push pull operation or have much headroom or produce a lot of current which the LSi's need dearly to perform best.

Good luck and if it sounds good to you that's all that matters

gnoorts

It seems like heiney9 knows what he's talking about haha. I guess a more accurate description would be that when the amp was switched to Class A, it was able to push out a good amount of power, maybe while not being in total Class A, with a noticeable gain in detail when switched from "Normal" mode.