some questions on tubes

organ · June 2003

I will have until Sunday to make up my mind. A friend at work decided that it was time to part with his tube amp and wants to sell it to me. I forgot the brand name but remember that it starts with an S and he told me that there is a knob with a 150, 250 and 350 setting. I have no idea if the knob is for. He just said that the higher setting makes the tubes brighter. I'm guessing it's the voltage? A pair of them retailed for $2700CDN back in the 80's(most likely early 80's) and he's selling me a single one for $500. He recommended that I replace the "old fashion" power cord.

Will tubes have trouble powering the LSi9? I will try it out with the 9's and if the amp is not powerful enough I will bi-amp using the tubes for HF. What is this biasing stuff I hear about used tube amp purchases?

Sorry I don't have much info on the amp at the moment but he promised to write down the brand name and model# by Friday when I see him again.

Thanks

Maurice

dcarlson · June 2003

Hey, so what's up with the Rega? On hold for a little longer?

Derick.

hoosier21 · June 2003

Madmaxx said LSi's and tube don't mix. His opinion anyway.

pjdami · June 2003

Madmaxx said LSi's and tube don't mix. His opinion anyway.

That's the same thing I heard from word of mouth. No personal experience with tubes though.

Maurice, if you are interested, I can give you a good deal on my NAD C270 to match the one you have. Since I went with the B&K PT5 preamp (really love this preamp) I want to match it with a B&K amp for my two channel rig.

Let me know...and if you are interested it doesn't have to be anytime soon. The C270 isn't going anywhere until I find a good home for it.

Paul

organ · June 2003

Derick,
That tube deal sounds too good to pass up. If I decide to get the tube the Rega will have to wait. The Rega will always be there until I'm ready to purchase it. I'm just afraid that if I don't buy the amp off him he's going to sell it to someone else. Here's my list as of now: 1. Tube amp, 2. Rega P3/NAD C270(tie), 3. DD/DTS receiver with pre-outs and finally LSiC and 7's for the rear.

hoosier,
That's the thing I'm worried about. I believe madmax tried it on the LSi15. I'm sure they need a lot more juice than the 9's and like you said it's his opinion. If I bi-amp, I don't think the tweeters will demand more power than what the tubes can provde.

Paul,
If I don't get the tube or P3 I will consider your offer. Thanx dude. I know you really want the B&K amp but I think you should hold on to the 270 until you get the B&K and compare the two. The sweet sound you're getting could be the result of the B&K and NAD combo(good chemistry). When will you be getting the new amp? I'll be sure to let you know if I decide to get your amp.

This disease is certainly driving me crazy. Could it be SARS (Severe Audio Reproduction Syndrome)? LOL
I really want to experience this "magical" tube sound that's why I have the tube at the top of my list. Are good tube amps from the 80's still considered good compared to budget tubes of today?

Maurice

pjdami · June 2003

Maurice,

No answer on when am I getting the new amp for the two channel rig. Just something I may do down the road if I can get a mutually agreeable price for the C270. I really don't have any objections to the C270 at all because it's got some serious balls. I just think a matching silver B&K amp would be sweet for my PT5.

Right now actually, I'm focusing on the main rig with the HT. I have some Transparent cables from Mantis on the way to try out with the Rotel and LSi 9's. I'm thinking about a Rotel RB 1070 to give me the two channel punch I'm missing with the RSX 1055. Not that it's bad at all but just not like with a seperate amp. The nines really like that reserve power.

Now that I think about it....I forgot...one of my many roommates in college had a McIntosh tube amp on some Savard??? speakers. The Savards were custom built I believe by a dealer in Baton Rouge. They were extremely efficient and had horn tweeters (kinda like Klipsh speakers). This was about 11 years ago and all I remember was that they were extremely ridiculously loud and clear with that killer McIntosh tube amp.

Paul

gidrah · June 2003

The brand name and model would help. I've got tubes, but no LSi's to go by. If Max's experience show they don't mate, then that is some heavy consideration as he has a good ear and some high quality gear to test with.

On the other hand. Ask to borrow the amp for a couple of weeks. Each amp has their own sound. To say all tube amps sound alike is to say all solid state amps sound alike. In theory yes, but in experience, no. Also there is a matter of personal taste to contend with.

Will it handle it, most likely yes. Will it sound good, most likely yes. Will it benefit from a subwoofer set as high as possible without degrading the sub, most likely yes.

danger boy · June 2003

i have to agree with gidrah, will your coworker let you borrow the amp for a week to test drive it? I bet he would. What does he drive with the tube amp?

My only audio experience with tubes is going on right now. it's not an amp. but a tube DAC. Tubes last about 3 yrs. i've been told. Tubes can get expensive for the really good sounding ones. Tubes run from $12 up to $200 each. with all price ranges in between.

So far I am impressed with my tube DAC. They say tubes give you a more analog sound. In my case... even though it's not an amp, it make all my CD's sound better. . The DAC is very clean sounding. it goes from 5Hz to 22KHz

I know it's a tough decision. BUt if your friend will let you test drive it with you LSI's. you'll know for sure if the tube amp is powerful enough and if the sound is for you right away I would think.

madmax · June 2003

Originally posted by hoosier21
Madmaxx said LSi's and tube don't mix. His opinion anyway.

I only tried one brand (a good one) of tube amps with my Lsi15's. The results were very disapointing. I wouldn't expect much more from other brands but again, I have only tried the one.

madmax

danger boy · June 2003

Originally posted by madmax001
I only tried one brand (a good one) of tube amps with my Lsi15's. The results were very disapointing. I wouldn't expect much more from other brands but again, I have only tried the one.

madmax

Can you please go into a little more detail why it was disappointing? Was there hiss, hum, buzz, or what? What was the tube amp rated at? What was the source?

madmax · June 2003

Originally posted by danger boy
Can you please go into a little more detail why it was disappointing? Was there hiss, hum, buzz, or what? What was the tube amp rated at? What was the source?

The amps are Manley Lab series monoblocks. 100 watts per channel. They use four EL-34's each. The source was a Pioneer Elite DV47Ai DVD playing SACD and DVD audio 2 channel discs and also LP's played on a Michell Gyro Dec turntable with SME type IV arm and Goldring 1042 cartridge. All is going through a tripplite LCR 2400 power conditioner. The pre-amp is a Modulus 3A tube preamp. The disappointment was that before the speakers even woke up or came alive the amps were out of breath and going into distortion. A quick change of amps to a Soundcraftsmen RA7502 at 375 watts per channel was a night and day comparison. BTW, I am not a high sound level listener and also a tube enthusiast who will normally give the benifit of the doubt to the tubes.
madmax

Edit: Not biwired, but fairly short 6' type 4 Audioquest cable.

organ · June 2003

Paul,
You've got a lot of really nice gear. Are your Pdimgs connected to the B&K? I've been living without surround sound for a while now because my Oink have no pre-outs. Your friend's system must have been awesome. The hornies in the Klipsch forum love tubes and horns.

I'm sure the amp he's selling is no McIntosh. I'm thinking it's just a low level tube amp because he mentioned about the power cord being "old fashion".

gidrah,
I will have the model# on Friday when I see him again. I don't really want to borrow the amp because I don't drive and take the subway to work. My boss gives me a lift home, so getting it to my house won't be a problem. He told me the amp is "f$#kin heavy". I will post the model number when I come home from work.

danger boy,
At the moment, he's powering some Cerwin Vegas with the tube. I'm guessing it's those popular short floor standers. Where did you purchase the tube DAC? Is it available online? What are you using as a transport?

madmax,
Did you try bi-amping with the tubes for HF? If I get it, it will be used for bi-amping. I don't think the tweeters take up much power but I may be wrong.

Now I seem to have another problem. I asked this audiophile guy in my night class about buying used tube amps from the 80's and he told me not to. His arguement was that because tube amps get really hot, over a long period of time the values of the resistors, caps and transformer will change. That's something I didn't think about. I will have to get the model# first to see how good the amp is. If it's not a good amp I will probably pass.

Maurice

danger boy · June 2003

Originally posted by organ

danger boy,
At the moment, he's powering some Cerwin Vegas with the tube. I'm guessing it's those popular short floor standers. Where did you purchase the tube DAC? Is it available online? What are you using as a transport?
Maurice

I got the tube DAC on Ebay. they show up there once in a while. The less popular Delta DAC is easier to find. It's the level below the one I got which is the Alpha. I think there is also one from CAL Audio labs called a Gamma DAC. Also check Audiogon too.

Right now i'm using my very first DVD player with HDCD as my transport. It's a 4 yr old dual tray player. Toshiba SD3109 i think.
Not what I want of course.. but the really good CD players are pricey.

Al

madmax · June 2003

Look for a tube amp with EL-34's, 6550's or KT-88 power tubes. Some of the smaller tubes like EL-84's don't have the same guts or glory. If it is a high quality amp you are looking at I wouldn't worry too much about heat. Caps seem to be the real problem over time as long as it has not been abused. Usually if a cap starts going bad you end up with 60 Hz hum and most technicians can figure that one out pretty easily. If you were to worry about heat is you could look at the design. Most are very well vented (pretty much open with only a mesh surrounding the whole upper portion) and the heat of the tubes is away (higher) from the other components and of course heat rises.
madmax

jimlb · July 2003

I have a pair of LSI15 speakers arriving next week. I'll be using a Musical Fidelity A300 integrated amp with them. I expect them to be very synergistic. I believe the only way to better it would be with a tube preamp and a solid state power amp. That seems to me to be the best way to add tubes to the LSI15's.

dcarlson · July 2003

jimlb, welcome to the club.

Musical Fidelity, Yeah.

I auditioned the A3 integrated and trying to muster the cash to pick it up. The A300 must be better. How do you like it?

Derick.

jimlb · July 2003

The Musical Fidelity A300 is the 150 watt per channel version of the A3 which I believe is about 85 watts per channel, but still quite powerful. I've been using it with Monitor Audio Silver 5i's which seems to be an overkill. I previously had the Bryston integrated and the MF was definitely an upgrade being more harmonically rich with more bass and I believe a bit clearer. The Bryston was an excellent amp but is only 60 watt per channel. The Bryston has a darker sound which was in some ways a better match for my metal dome Monitor Audios. That's why I believe the Polk LSI 15's will be a better match for the MF A300 because of the warmer sound and the higher current requirements. I'm chomping at the bit waiting for the speakers. That's why I've been spending so much time on this forum.

dcarlson · July 2003

Sorry for the derail here Maurice. It's an old thread so I don't feel too bad.

jimlb, there's an A3 demo at my local shop. They're asking $1500CDN for it. I'm hoping it's still there, old model and demo, I should be able to swipe a good deal. I first checked out the same one back in February, it's not selling at all. Go figure.

jimlb · July 2003

Derick, what type of speakers and equipment to plan to use the A3 with? I'd send you a private message because we are a bit off the subject, but apparently you are not set up for it.

dcarlson · July 2003

I have a Denon 2802 receiver, Rotel RCD1070 CD player, Thorens TD-160 Turntable with Polk RT1000i as fronts. I started building my system about a year and half ago. I thought I wanted a Home theatre setup and after a lot of spending on that route I realized I wanted a killer 2 channel setup. That's where an integrated and most likely the A3 comes in for my next purchase. Then next spring, hopefully some new speakers. Maybe a new Turntable after that.

Don't worry about the PM thing, threads get derailed all of the time. I'm sure Organ doesn't mind. I hope he chimes in on how his Dynaco and B&O Turntable are working out. That would keep us on track.

Derick.

organ · July 2003

It's all good. We're here to talk audio, so type away.

Derick,
At the moment I can't say the TT sounds better than my CD player when playing loud. At lower volumes they sound pretty close. I think the needle on the TT needs to be replaced.

Update: Looks like I'm back to SS and it might be for a while. A few days ago I decided to hook up a pair of more effecient Polks(RT5) to the Dynaco and the magical sound of tubes sounded better. More air and dynamics but less bass than the LSi9. The 9's sounded great with the Dyna, especially in the mids. Madmax is absolutely right, by comparing the sound coming from the two speakers, it seems like the tubes run out of steam before the LSi opened up. Even with the lower effeciency LSi, the mids were the best I've heard when powered by the Dyna.

Here's why I'm back to SS...While the RT5's were hooked up, I heard a hum coming from the speakers. The hum was very quiet with the LSi but clearly audible with the RT5's. So it looks like the Quad capacitor is going bad. I will replace it, buy a new 7199 board and rewire the whole unit. I will purchase all my parts from www.dynaco-doctor.com This is going to take a long time and I will be using the C270 again.

I really miss the tube sound right now. The 1955 recording of Madama Butterfly is missing a lot of the natural ambiance I heard from the tubes. The mids is not as voluptuous sounding anymore. The presence in Carmen is reduced also. But now I'm really enjoying the dynamics and bass of my NAD. Everything's cool, I lost some but also gained something else in return. And the NAD has more of this "umpa umpa" presentation that makes music sound exciting.

Almost forgot, I got some new tubes about 3 weeks ago. Electro Harmonics EL-34s, Sovtek 5AR4 and Sovtek 7199. The sound really improved but it's going to bea while before I enjoy them again.

Now I'm thinking about getting a pair of Klipsch RB-3. A store abot 2 miles away is selling them for $530CDN (retail is $1120CDN) the newer models are coming out next month that's why the store is selling them on the cheap. They're bookshelfs, so taking turns up on the stands with the 9's won't be a problem. Sometims I just want to get blasted while listening to metal so I'm still thinkin about getting the Klipsch. I'm sure they'll sound great with the Dyna once I get her fixed up. I'd love hear some inputs from anyone who heard the RB-3.

Maurice

jimlb · July 2003

Derick, Yes, the Musical Fidelity A3 should be a huge upgrade over the Denon receiver! Yeh, I'm beginning to ween myself off of Home theatre, as 2 channel is my first love. An integrated amp is an excellent cost effective way to go.

Maurice, I believe the best option for the LSI speakers would be to go with a tube preamp and solid state power amp, but we are talking about at least double the money. As you noted the tubes just flesh things out real nice! One option to consider is to buy a tube preamp and use the NAD as a power amp using the amp inputs. An excellent choice would be to pick up a used Audible Illusions Modulus 3 or 3A. They both have a phono preamp. You could eventually upgrade your power amp later. Your Dynaco will never work for you if you want to use the LSI's. Do you really think you could be happy with the Klipsch after owning LSI's?

dcarlson · July 2003

Sounds like a good deal on the Klipsch, I took a listen to some towers about a year ago and I didn't like horn tweets. I think you need the right kind equipment behind them, maybe that dynaco, I don't know. Half price is half price.

The cart that came with my Thorens sounded like crap, very edgy on the highs. Once I got a new cart things were a lot better. Cost me $65cdn. Cheap fix for now to get me going, might not be a bad idea for ya.

Man this hobby takes a lot freaking patience. It seams lately I can muster any cash to get anything going. :mad: I moved, golf season, new driver. It's all about priorities. An integrated is numero uno now for sure. I might dip into the credit to do it, then I'll have no choice but to muster the cash.

Jim, I had a chance to do a side by side with a Denon 1803 and the A3. After listening to the Denon for a while, switched over and there was so much more. Listened for a little while and went back to the Denon and it literally felt like my ears were blocked, amazing.

gidrah · July 2003

Sorry to hear about your trouble Maurice. I'm also glad to hear about your results. I wish I knew something to tell you about the Dyna-70. I learned more about this amp from reading your threads than I did when I posted mine. The new owner's manual is a godsend. Thanks.

organ · July 2003

jim,
Thanks for the advice. How much of the "tube sound" will I hear by using a tube pre and ss amp? I know 2 dealers not too far away selling tube pre's. I called both to ask for prices on entry level units. So far the cheapest one is $1200CDN and the other store's entry level is $2600(way too much for me). If the tube pre and ss amp combo can still bring out tube sound, I will begin saving up for the new pre. I'm so tube deprived right now. Oh yeah, I will use my NAD for amplification.

I want the Klipsch for the Dynaco which I will set up somewhere else or take turns with the LSi up on the stands. Still thinking about it.

Derick,
I think my TT only accepts B&O carts. There is a switch located on the bottom where you have to tell the TT which B&O cart you're using. I still need more time to play around with it to see if vinyl is for me. Are you still getting a Rega?

Which integrated are you planning to purchase? Be sure to give some tube set ups a demo. You may love the sound as much as I do. Looks like you've been very busy lately eh? Just pull out the plastic card and reward yourself for the hard work=) Have fun demoing!

gidrah,
I'm thinking about replacing everything on the Dyna except the trannies. Did you notice a difference when you replaced the 7199 board? I'm still thinking about whether I should get another stock board or the upgraded ones. Does your 060 transformer get really hot after being on for many hours? Mine gets really hot but the output trannies stay warm.

Maurice

gidrah · July 2003

I've never replaced anything on mine.

dcarlson · July 2003

I'm sure you'll like vinyl. Have you priced the B&O carts? That record show in Mississauga is coming up, July 20. I can't make it but I'll hitting it again sometime.

No Rega in the near future for me. With the new place, I can play the music louder and I'm really noticing what I'm missing, some good clean power. Soon I'll be hitting my store and demoing some stuff. Maybe this weekend. The Musical Fidelity A3cr integrated amp is the one I've been eyeballing for a long time. I can't find a link to a review for some reason.

Just pull out the plastic card and reward yourself for the hard work

That could be dangerous.

dcarlson · July 2003

Here we go.

http://www.carltonaudiovisual.com.au/musicalfidelity/a3.html

jimlb · July 2003

I got my LSI15's yesterday. Started out not too impressed right out of the box, but I hit the right CD and they began to impress. I'll post my impressions after about a week of reviewing them.

Maurice,

A tube preamp will get you a little more than half way there to get you the tube sound. Unfortunately it is definitely not as apparent as a tube power amp but you've found out the obvious difficulties using those with certain speakers. Unfortunately with tube power amps, the good ones start at about $2000. Now every tube preamp sounds very different. Some tend to get very close to solid state with a little of the fleshing out, but some are definitely more euphonic which is the classic tube sound. Round and full sounding. I prefer those when using a SS amp. Now obviously there are many out there. The only ones that I have demoed are Audio Research, Audible Illusions, N.E.W. and Golden Tube. I prefer the Audible Illusions the most. It is the most euphonic as well as being a great preamp. You would probably need to consider a used one though as they go for about $2000. You can pick up a used one from $750 to $1200. Now I understand there are a lot of new ones out there that are quite nice from Antique Soundlabs to Conrad Johnson to Cary and a host of others. I hope that helps a bit.

Derek,
I didn't now that the integrated amp you are looking at is an A3cr. That is a better version than mine, just with less power. They upgraded the power supply with chokes and it is supposed to be even more transparent.

jimlb · July 2003

Derek,

Here is another link on the Musical Fidelity A3cr

http://www.musicalfidelity.com/a32series.html

organ · July 2003

Derick,
I still haven't check for prices on the cart. I need to buy some more vinyls first. I found at least 5 at an online store that I want.

That looks like a kick **** integrated. Are you getting new or used? The article says "discontinued" so if you can still find one at a dealer I'm sure you'll get a great deal. How far away are you from Missisauga? Tabangi Electronis sells Musical Fidelity and if you get the owner, he'll give you killer deals. Let us know about your weekend adventures. Good Luck.

gidrah,
Sorry man, I guess it's faster100 that upgraded.

Jim,
I'm going to start looking around for good tubed pre's. I'm going to try to keep my limit under $2000CDN and I'll be sure to stay away from the SS sounding pre's. I'll stick to SS amplification until I can afford a tube amp that could power the LSi easily. What do you think about the "Foreplay" pre amp? DIY kit for just oer $100. Thanks for the info, it definately helped.

Maurice

some questions on tubes

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