OMG, I forgot how good vinyl sounds

inspiredsports

I've been busy and a little lazy for the past 2 months, spinning CD's 100 percent of the time (instead of vinyl (which normally gets almost 100% of my attention).

This morning I dug back in to my vinyl collection.

Don't get me wrong, CD's sound great on my modest system, but I'm simply blown away by the improved detail and soundstage that vinyl provides. I'd say the improvement vinyl yields in my system is at least half again as good CD.

Do any of you who listen to both digital and analog also find that your analog collection blows your digital collection away?

tcrossma

So far I've found that two or three records sound better than anything my CD player has ever produced. Another handful are on par with some of my better CD's. And then I have a bunch of records that have too much snap, crackle and pop for me to enjoy (which I'm still in the process of trying to correct).

I have also found that some records can suffer from the same troubles as a poorly recorded CD with poor dynamics, a lack of soundstage and bad tonal qualities.

So all in all I would say that it does not blow away my CD collection, and I thoroughly enjoy listening to the best of both worlds.

Dawgfish

It's good to see you posting again. I've been wondering where you've been. Did you ever get the PV-5 back up running again?

As far as vinyl sounding better than CD/SACD, I've come full circle on this. For a long time in my system, vinyl was clearly the better sounding format as a whole. I was running a modified Technics SL-1200 MK2 table with a Parasound phono pre and a Denon DL-160 Cart. Then I upgraded my CDP (from a Denon DCM-390 to a Constance CD-120 Balanced), added an SACD player (Denon 2900) and added two Grant Fidelity B-283 tube buffers with Mullard 8100 tubes in conjunction with the CD and SACD players. After upgrading my CDP, adding the SACD, and the tube buffers, my CDP and SACD sources both sounded better than my vinyl setup. Admittedly I was a little distraught at this at first. I then realized that it wasn't a bad thing. Vinyl still sounded good in my system, it's just that my other sources made significant upgrades.

I realized it was time to stepup my vinyl rig. I've recently added a Dynovector DV20XH cartridge with a Soundsmith ruby cantiliever and nude diamond stylus and a Jolida JD-9 with Telefunken 12AX7s to the vinyl rig. Vinly is now the king format in my system again! The new cart and phono pre made a huge difference, especailly in soundstage, presence, and detail. The Soundsmith modded Dynovector cart is really sensitive to adjustments, so I'm still tweaking the VTA, VTF, and anti-skate. Everyday it sounds better and better after each tweek. It's almost there, I'm just trying to find that perfect blend of highs and lows playing with the VTA. The sounstage is simply breathtaking, especially playing through tubes and the SDAs. I love-me some vinyl again! MMM mmmm (any southerner on here will tell you those words are usually reserved for hot ladies and BBQ, so you know it's got to be good!).

Dawgfish

Keiko wrote: »

Good to see you posting again, Greg. Dawg, I'm jealous.

Thanks man! You should here some Rush on it. I put on Signals and Moving Pictures last night and nearly fell at of my chair! I thought Alex, Geddy, and Neil were in the room with me putting on a private concert. It was awesome!

BTW, I'm finding the Dynovector to be a good match with the SL-1200 tonearm and table in general, so keep an eye out for one. I got a really good deal on that and the Jolida on the 'Gon. The 1200 never ceases to amaze me!

hearingimpared

inspiredsports wrote: »

I've been busy and a little lazy for the past 2 months, spinning CD's 100 percent of the time (instead of vinyl (which normally gets almost 100% of my attention).

This morning I dug back in to my vinyl collection.

Don't get me wrong, CD's sound great on my modest system, but I'm simply blown away by the improved detail and soundstage that vinyl provides. I'd say the improvement vinyl yields in my system is at least half again as good CD.

Do any of you who listen to both digital and analog also find that your analog collection blows your digital collection away?

Anymore dumb questions?:D:p

hearingimpared

Dawgfish wrote: »

It's good to see you posting again. I've been wondering where you've been. Did you ever get the PV-5 back up running again?

As far as vinyl sounding better than CD/SACD, I've come full circle on this. For a long time in my system, vinyl was clearly the better sounding format as a whole. I was running a modified Technics SL-1200 MK2 table with a Parasound phono pre and a Denon DL-160 Cart. Then I upgraded my CDP (from a Denon DCM-390 to a Constance CD-120 Balanced), added an SACD player (Denon 2900) and added two Grant Fidelity B-283 tube buffers with Mullard 8100 tubes in conjunction with the CD and SACD players. After upgrading my CDP, adding the SACD, and the tube buffers, my CDP and SACD sources both sounded better than my vinyl setup. Admittedly I was a little distraught at this at first. I then realized that it wasn't a bad thing. Vinyl still sounded good in my system, it's just that my other sources made significant upgrades.

I realized it was time to stepup my vinyl rig. I've recently added a Dynovector DV20XH cartridge with a Soundsmith ruby cantiliever and nude diamond stylus and a Jolida JD-9 with Telefunken 12AX7s to the vinyl rig. Vinly is now the king format in my system again! The new cart and phono pre made a huge difference, especailly in soundstage, presence, and detail. The Soundsmith modded Dynovector cart is really sensitive to adjustments, so I'm still tweaking the VTA, VTF, and anti-skate. Everyday it sounds better and better after each tweek. It's almost there, I'm just trying to find that perfect blend of highs and lows playing with the VTA. The sounstage is simply breathtaking, especially playing through tubes and the SDAs. I love-me some vinyl again! MMM mmmm (any southerner on here will tell you those words are usually reserved for hot ladies and BBQ, so you know it's got to be good!).

Great stuff Steve!!!

madmax

I find it hard to switch back and forth. CD's have their good points and always gives you that WOW factor when you first start listening while vinyl starts off gently and gets better the longer you listen. Vinyl is the clear winner obviously. If you want to wow a stranger in 30 seconds put on a CD but if you care to listen and achieve a real experience put on some vinyl.

inspiredsports

Keiko wrote: »

Good to see you posting again, Greg. Dawg, I'm jealous.

Hey Mike . . . I think we are just traveling in different circles. I'm on almost every day, although I'm probably averaging just 2 or 3 posts per week.

####

Hi Steve . . . The PV-5 has been at Conrad Johnson Guru Bill Thalmann's place (Music Technology) since March 29. He's going to do his complete audiophile upgrade (below), taking that PV-5 into the realm of sounding great 'til about 2030 . The problem is he is busy, so my PV-7 is still doing all of the heavy lifting. I'm sending him another email to light a fire under him as we speak.


--- 1) Replace metal can electrolytics with polypropylene (high voltage) or dry film electrolytics (heater supply).
--- 2) Replace capacitors in the signal path with Auricap polypropylenes.
--- 3) Install hyperfast, soft recovery diodes in the high voltage supply
--- 4) Improve the heater elevation circuit for lower AC ESR (surprisingly important)
--- 5) Replace the buss wires from the I/O connectors with pure silver.
--- 6) Lower the noise floor from the power supply regulators
--- 7) Install an IEC power cord connector to allow you to experiment with different power cords, which can and do make a difference.
--- 8) Repair anything that is needed electronically to get the preamp to operate as new, except for tubes. I would recommend a fresh set to allow you to fully appreciate what the upgrade accomplishes. (I have new tubes here ready and waiting)
--- 9) Optionally, we can bypass the balance control for a subtle, but audible improvement (this is reversible if you ever decide you want balance control functionality. (I'm not having this part done)
---- Sonically, this builds on the very desirable PV5 sound and basically increases its ability to resolve subtle inner detail and micro-dynamics. This affects soundstage dimensionality and focus as well as subtle overtones in acoustic instruments. Bass extension and definition is also improved.

F1nut

Anyone that thinks vinyl sounds better needs a better CD/SACD player.

Tony M

F1nut wrote: »

Anyone that thinks vinyl sounds better needs a better CD/SACD player.

I might have to agree. SACD is pretty special. Even though I only own 1 I was amazed at the sound appearing out of blackness and having the reality or illusion of the artist being right in front of me.

tcrossma

F1nut wrote: »

Anyone that thinks vinyl sounds better needs a better CD/SACD player.

tony millard wrote: »

I might have to agree. SACD is pretty speacial. Even though I only own 1 I was amazed at the sound appearing out of blackness and having the reality or illusion of the artist being right in front of me.

Well, I went from a Denon 3910 CD/SACD player to a Classe CDP-10 ($2k new, I paid $800 used), which was a very large upgrade. The Classe is not an SACD player, but Redbook on this player sounds better than anything that came out of the 3910.

I paid $400 for my recent Micro Seiki turntable, plus $150 for a Denon DL-160 cart.

A few of the records I have sound better than anything that any CD I've heard on my system yet.

Now, I realize there are many higher-end CD players above and beyond what I have. But there are also many (way) higher end turntables out there too. And I must say, vinyl seems to be capable of some amazing sound. Bang for the buck seems to be pretty decent thus far.

I think there are many pros and cons to each format, and I'm just glad to have my feet dipped into both at this point.

Vette C6.r

F1nut wrote: »

Anyone that thinks vinyl sounds better needs a better CD/SACD player.

I'm glad you said it Jesse. I didn't want to be the one that droped that bomb. Have to say that I agree. Still tons more fun spinning the LP's.

anhchungdoan

I do not listen to a lot of SACD but the "Spanish Harlem " by Rebecca Pidgeon in SACD is stunning. Spinning Lps is fun, I agree. I also like the little static pop or crack once in a while.

hearingimpared

F1nut wrote: »

Anyone that thinks vinyl sounds better needs a better CD/SACD player.

Not!:p

Dawgfish

Everyone's entitled to their opinion and everyone's opinion is cool. MY CDP is no slouch by any means (nor is it the greatest in the world either) and it sounds great, but I just love the warmth of vinyl. SACD is special also. I friend of mine who works at a high end audio dealer (they sell McIntosh, B&W, Tyler Acoustics, Pass Labs, etc.) says that SACD stands for super ANALOGUE compact disc. I have to agree with him. SACD sounds a lot like vinyl in dynamics, soundstage and detail. I know there are much better SACD players out there than what I have (until Ben does his mods on it), I have heard them many times over on some incredible systems, but I still preferred the sound of vinyl even in these high end systems. There's just something about it. Yeah it's expensive and a pain in the butt with all of the maintenance, but the sound is totally worth it to me.

My same buddy who works at the high end audio dealer tells me that they build high end, $40 to $60 grand systems pretty reguraly for folks and the folks still don't seem to be quite satisfied with the system. He says in nearly every case, when they have introduced a turntable into the system, the folks found what they where looking for and love the vinyl sound. To each their own though. YMMV.

Greg,

You're going to have to keep me posted on how the PV-5 comes out. Glad to see you back here and spinning some vinyl again.

Steve

nooshinjohn

F1nut wrote: »

Anyone that thinks vinyl sounds better needs a better CD/SACD player.

Everyone knows that there can be no differences in CD players, just like every solid state amp over 100 wpc sounds exactly the same. Where do you get your wild theories from Jesse?:p:p:D:D;);)



I do not have enough SACD's to justify a trip to Upgradeville just yet, but when I need to replace my player, I will be getting a good SACD player... For now, vinyl in my rig is far superior to anything I have on cd.

inspiredsports

F1nut wrote: »

Anyone that thinks vinyl sounds better needs a better CD/SACD player.

This thought has crossed my mind as my current CD players might be the weak links in my current set up, even after feeding them through my highly modded Musical Fidelity X10v3 tube buffer.

I've had my eye on some of the Musical Fidelity SACD models and others, but don't really have enough knowledge about SACD yet.

Are there any suggestions of SACD giant killers that aren't budget killers?

Tony M

anhchungdoan wrote: »

I do not listen to a lot of SACD but the "Spanish Harlem " by Rebecca Pidgeon in SACD is stunning. Spinning Lps is fun, I agree. I also like the little static pop or crack once in a while.

:rolleyes:..That song right there has been demo'ed on my SRS2's many times to show-off.,*&^%l,I mean show-case what can be heard in a home environment.That song is on a Cheski Records demo disc (CD)a guy brought down with other discs also to test some potential purchases on.

Her voice comes out of blackness is also sooo real and center stage!!!! It'll blow you away when you first hear it on a fairly nice system.;)

madmax

Last night I had the lights low and dropped the needle on a record. I thought to myself "Damn, this record is as quiet as a CD". Oh, and then I remebered to turn on the platter.
madmax

inspiredsports

madmax wrote: »

Last night I had the lights low and dropped the needle on a record. I thought to myself "Damn, this record is as quiet as a CD". Oh, and then I remebered to turn on the platter.
madmax

That's a good one!

Tony M

I've finally got my Technics SL-1400MK2 hooked up again and this time there is zero hum. It must have been because it was sitting on a tv tray if I remember right.

I have the new DENON DL-160 cartridge sitting on a shelf for now.I bought a new stylus for my Stanton 881S from the Needle Doctor..( shop around people, I paid too much I feel after I looked around after I was refered to a perticular stylus by a guy at Needle Doctor)

Well I've read the 881S is a special cartridge and I am BLOWN AWAY by what I'm hearing coming out of the TT. With clean records, the sound is just like SACD. I only own the one SACD but the detail and resonance of the instuments and decay is AMAZING! I don't believe I heard music like this when I was younger for one reason, the cost or quality of my equipment and speakers .

"You get what you pay for" is so true in this audio hobby.

The cost of the Stanton 881S with new stylus is about the same as the DENON DL-160 so I don't expect alot of improvement but I do expect some. Being the Denon is brand new and not aged like the Stanton's cartridge is.

Another issue I've already noticed is the quality of the pressings have alot to do with the soundfield. I played a quality pressing of " David Winter's..Winter Song" album on both sides. It was great! Then I put on a K-Tell album of "Seals and Crofts ..Greatest Hits" and the sound was flat through 80% of it. I can only imagine a 180 gram album of some group done by MoFi(is that right).

I've got to get more experience in the vinyl world for sure. I feel I've started another hobby up after a couple of days ago when all the TT stuff came together. I also inquired about a record clamp while talking to the Needle Doctor guy and he sold me a Michaels clamp. I think it does a great job holding the platters down.

I found a D4 disc cleaner that had some fluid left in the bottle and used that to fine clean the couple albums today.

Now, is there any chance someone will make a batch of cleaning fluid and sell 2 or 4 oz. to members like Larry does rings and brackets? I could buy some more D3 fluid but some on the internet say it's not as good as before. Also, I read where some GLASS CLEANER works good. And One guy I met at Goodwill uses EYE Contacts cleaner too.

Any advice on my questions? yea or ney..
My record collection is only 200 albums and nothing really special so average cleaner would work on my stuff for now UNLESS you guys just HATE the thought of me ruining my collection trying these methods. I don't want to degrade my collection either so what is the cheapest cleaner I can get away with? I'm still leaning toward that D3 or D5 cleaner....

I'm getting there.;):D

hearingimpared

Great to hear that you are enjoying vinyl again Tony. As far as cleaning records goes, there are lots of manual cleaning methods and fluids out there that are better than the Discwasher D4 cleaner. There are manual cleaning kits right on the Needle Doctor website you could look into.

I'm curious could you provide a link to the "Michaels clamp" that you bought from the Needle Doctor? I can't seem to find it anywhere unless you have the wrong name of the clamp. Are you possibly talking about the "JA Michell Record Clamp?"

Have fun. If you need any help or have questions pertaining to vinyl or the analog rig please PM me as it would be my pleasure to help you out.

quadzilla

madmax wrote: »

I find it hard to switch back and forth. CD's have their good points and always gives you that WOW factor when you first start listening while vinyl starts off gently and gets better the longer you listen. Vinyl is the clear winner obviously. If you want to wow a stranger in 30 seconds put on a CD but if you care to listen and achieve a real experience put on some vinyl.

I've found that I get the biggest wow factor by dropping the needle on Nirvana's Nevermind remastered. More than one person's comment after hearing just that first track has been that they're going back to vinyl.

Tony M

hearingimpared wrote: »

Great to hear that you are enjoying vinyl again Tony. As far as cleaning records goes, there are lots of manual cleaning methods and fluids out there that are better than the Discwasher D4 cleaner. There are manual cleaning kits right on the Needle Doctor website you could look into.

I'm curious could you provide a link to the "Michaels clamp" that you bought from the Needle Doctor? I can't seem to find it anywhere unless you have the wrong name of the clamp. Are you possibly talking about the "JA Michell Record Clamp?"
Have fun. If you need any help or have questions pertaining to vinyl or the analog rig please PM me as it would be my pleasure to help you out.

Joe,
You are so right. I can't see like I used too..:D
I'll go back and look at their cleaning fluid now.

I thought I or others can ask you for knowledge if needed anytime.

I feel I acted in haste (for some strange reason) when I ordered my new stylus and clamp without asking you for advice fist. I'm really sorry. I hope it won't happen again.;) I did get great sound for my $ spent at least. I will put the Denon Dl-160 on when I have the new RDOs broken in and a good reference to what the Stanton sounds like.

Is there a thread where some 70s vinyl pressings are mentioned that are pretty good. I have classic rock mostly. No jazz from then except a few I just purchased in the past year from yard sales and good will.

I'm about to research the what are you listening to thread and the music for SDA listening to see if I have some of that on vinyl also.

Sooo I'm going to be busy in the next week or two experimenting with my old vinyl collection seriously .

I also just bought about 150 CDs (6 plasic grocery bags full.:eek:..) at a yard sale today and the names of most of these groups are strange to me. I'm glad I'm semi-retired so I have time to do this all over again.:D

Listening takes up alot of time.:(

hearingimpared

tony millard wrote: »

Joe,
You are so right. I can't see like I used too..:D
I'll go back and look at their cleaning fluid now.

I thought I or others can ask you for knowledge if needed anytime.

I feel I acted in haste (for some strange reason) when I ordered my new stylus and clamp without asking you for advice fist. I'm really sorry. I hope it won't happen again.;) I did get great sound for my $ spent at least. I will put the Denon Dl-160 on when I have the new RDOs broken in and a good reference to what the Stanton sounds like.

Is there a thread where some 70s vinyl pressings are mentioned that are pretty good. I have classic rock mostly. No jazz from then except a few I just purchased in the past year from yard sales and good will.

I'm about to research the what are you listening to thread and the music for SDA listening to see if I have some of that on vinyl also.

Sooo I'm going to be busy in the next week or two experimenting with my old vinyl collection seriously .

I also just bought about 150 CDs (6 plasic grocery bags full.:eek:..) at a yard sale today and the names of most of these groups are strange to me. I'm glad I'm semi-retired so I have time to do this all over again.:D

Listening takes up alot of time.:(

Tony, I'm humbled by that statement but I can tell you there are plenty more Polkies here who know more about analog fronts ends then I could ever dream of.

A good place to check out music on LP especially ones suggested by BlueMDpicker (Mike) is the "What are you listening to thread." There are loads and loads of LPs mentioned there from every music genre there is.

Eventually, if I were you, I would start looking into RCMs for record cleaning and checking out how much you need to save up for them. However there are several DIY RCMs mentioned here that work very well on a thin dime.

One that comes to mind is bikerboy's (Jeff) DIY RCM.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1276346&postcount=9


I believe he based on this;

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/recordcleaner.htm

Here's a thread on DIY RCMs.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1276346#post1276346

If you can afford one or can save up for one in a reasonable amount of time I highly recommend the VPI 16.5 RCM.

EDIT; I've seen the JA Michell Record Clamp but never tried one. Is it a screw down type that uses thread on your spindle or is it press on clamp or a clamp that grabs the spindle and allows you to apply the force needed to flatten out the record and force it to make intimate contact with the platter from the label out to the lead-in bead. It looks to me that the base is made of delrin which if true is a very good thing. Perhaps you could post some pictures of the clamp from various views as well as the underside of the base.

pearsall001

I started out with vinyl but have since molded them all into salad bowls. Now it's CD all the way baby!!! :D There you go Joe! :eek:

Tony M

There's some other TT guys on here I know but your up there with them in my eyes.I'll get some close ups for you Joe. It is a 4 prong clamping device. I think the bottom is delrin. I have to push down on the clamp and then turn the top metal until the 4 sleeves apply enough pressure to stay on the spindle tightly. I like it. I'm sure it helps stabilize the platters.:cool:

I looked at the fluids the needle doctor has and I probably will get some of their brush cleaner fluid for now. I've heard alot of props for the VPI machines and I like toolforlifes homemade technics one alot too. I do have a few spare cheap but ok TT I could turn into one this fall real easy. But I will look at the reference threads you showed me.

I went to do yard work and what a frustrating day it was earlier. I'm cooled down but the mower still won't start. Gas ran low and I think some trash got into the needle valve. I'll look at it tomorrow or take it to the dealer if it's still under one pull warranty status.
Thanks Joe.
Tony

Tony M

Here are some close ups of the Michell clamp.Also of the TT in it's new spot under the Sunfire amp and carver tuner. Above the CD player and pre-amp to.

Tony M

Joe, Are you still able to make your clamps?

I saw where you wanted to talk to Larry about them too. Any progress in reviving a run of those giants?