Car repair ripoff

joeparaski

The point to this story is...how do you protect yourself from potentially getting ripped off with car repairs?

Last Friday we had a 2007 Hummer come in on a tow truck. A "crank but no start" scenario. The basic check showed that it wasn't getting any fuel. Fuel pump circuit was fine and there was fuel in the tank (yes, people do run out of fuel and don't know it). We checked that the fuel pump was getting power and it was. Gave the tank a few whacks with a rubber mallet to try to get it going but it didn't. *Btw, this trick works more often than you think, if you suspect your fuel pump isn't working, bang on the fuel tank, it may start working and get you out of a situation or tow truck expense*

Ok, my tech calls for a fuel pump and I make an estimate. WOW...$935 for a fuel pump, 2 hours labor to replace it, and the initial diagnostic...this is going to cost the guy! But what the heck, the guys' got a Hummer, so he could afford it, right?....or that's my first thought anyway. The customer ok's the repair and left it with us till next week (going out of town for the weekend, probably to his big chalet up north I bet).

But something is bugging me....this is a 2007, I can't find a pump anywhere and it has to be ordered from Cincinnati or somewhere (I forget). Not a common problem or pumps would be more readily available. I tell my tech that I'm not ordering a pump till the tank is down and we have access to the fuel pump so we can power the pump directly (which I know he would have done anyway).

Well lo and behold, the damn pump works with power applied directly to it. We don't know what pressure it has, but it works. Further checking shows that even though there was power from the harness to the pump, the ground wire further down the harness was corroded where it was attached to the frame (a rather crude way to get ground, considering the vehicle).

So I'm happy and I'm thinking that this guy is gonna be real happy when I call him on Monday. I'm also thinking...holy crap, it would be sooo easy for this guy to get ripped off if he ended up at a less than reputable garage. It's just too easy, a fuel pump inside a fuel tank is not something that you can check to see if it was changed.

Which brings me to my point of this story....how do YOU protect yourself? The garage may not start out with the intention of ripping you off, but presented with such an easy opportunity can be tempting I would think.


I can offer a few suggestions:

Ask for you old parts back BEFORE the work is started.

Stick around if you can, and watch the work in progress.

Go see the mechanic working on your car and give him a tip before he starts...he's more likely to take better care of your car.


So, what do you guys do? (besides fixing it yourself).


Joe

Polkersince85

Knowledge is power. I know Fords energize the pump by the computer completing the ground. Ground the pump and it runs. Gets you out of a tight.

Many shops prey on ignorance of how a unit works. The only way to avoid ripoffs is to learn and get a little mechanical knowledge. Be sure the service writer explains what the symptoms are. "Won't start" could be a zillion things that could leave room for serious profit to the shop.

Vette C6.r

Score one for the good guys Joe.

Karma will come back to ya.

heiney9

I met my mechanic (a small one man shop) 22 years ago. I've trusted him over the years and now no one but him works on my cars. He specializes in VW/Audi service and repairs but can and does work on other makes. He always offers used parts as an alternative to some of the pricier parts and lets me decide if I want to go that route. Since I've only owned VW/Audi cars and that's his specialty it has been a great relationship.

He replaced a faulty coil pack 2 years ago. New they run about $400 he sold and installed a used one for $150 and 2 years later it still works fine. He's become a good friend and is very, very trustworthy. My brother and my parents have used him as well for years now.

He hints at retirement and I have NO IDEA where I would go if/when he retires.

I also add that doing some leg work on Internet will arm you with the knowledge you need when you go to a mechanic. If only a friend of mine would have done that before getting totally soaked on an extended dealer warranty which in the end covered almost nothing. Plus, he paid an exorbitant amount of money for simple repairs they basically lied to him about.

PerfectCreature

Yeah I got sucked into a bad deal by a guy that was one of my dads close friends. He used to be a trustworthy mechanic...not so much anymore.
I had break lines that needed to be replaced so I could pass inspection...the only things that between me and my father we couldn't really do ourselves...lacking the proper equipment.
Anyway. We took it in he tole me I needed all brand new lines...I was like sure thing new break lines on a 1995 vehicle...that's great it was have a great positive if I decided to sell it.
Well. He charged me like $200 which I thought was expensive given the size of my car its a rather small (Buick Skylark) I paid it anyway.
The following night I got into a bad accident at my local mall. I pulled out of the mall and I didn't see a car in my blind spot and my break lines broke. I ended up causing a lot of damage to his and my car... it was over $1500 in body work. I had a local sears nearby and one of the guys which is now one of my best buds had a tow rig on the front of his truck.
He towed me back to the shop lifted what was left of my vehicle to show me that my old lines were welded strait to the wheels... there was about a 2 inch patch of brand new lines, and several lines of metallic tape that had holes in them...
I was charged $200 for 2 inches of brake line and some shiny duck tape...
got in a $1500 accident...
I sued him for quite a bit of money... got my car back to normal and was able to pay for the guys car...he had a poor hybrid fiber glass car... I had me a metal boat!
Simply...I do not trust any mechanics anymore. I will watch what they are doing and I want verification on why I need what I need done. I research what the items could cost and such.
I had had my license for only 2 months when that happened...
It scared me quite bad.

mdaudioguy

I like the idea about a tip before they start... $20 can go a long way towards peace of mind, especially for a major repair. Then, if you're really pleased with the service, another tip at the end might be helpful for the next time he sees your car roll in. I think that's a better approach than watching over them like a hawk.

On the other hand, I have to say that I have an inherent distrust... not just mechanics, but of all service industries. It's hard to judge who's who. I do as much as I can myself, but as has been said, there are some jobs that I'm just not equipped for.

Serendipity

I just ask around for recommended shops and see who has had a good experience there.

Our very own Mike (Face) recommended http://www.thevettedoctors.com/ so they work on the Vette and they do excellent work so far. The work seems to be top notch and the owners are very nice.

Polkitup2

joeparaski wrote: »

Go see the mechanic working on your car and give him a tip before he starts...he's more likely to take better care of your car.


So, what do you guys do? (besides fixing it yourself).


Joe

If I thought I had to tip the mechanic to get good service I would not be using that shop.

obieone

Sign up with AAA. They have a list of reputable auto repair shops all over the country. My brother in law says it takes forever to make the list, and it's easily lost, if you have 'x' number of complaints.

The only other thing I've done, is, stop by and actually SEE them working on the vehicle , my last instance was a relay in my dash causing a short, and draining the battery. Went by, and they had the dash out, so, it worked for me.

madmax

I don't trust anyone to do a good job. All the times I took my cars in for a repair I had to re-do the work myself for it to be right. Finally, I decided if I'm going to have to re-do everything anyway then why go to someone else in the first place. I do my own unless I have no choice.
madmax

SCompRacer

madmax wrote: »

I don't trust anyone to do a good job.

This is one of the reasons I got out of the car repair biz. Right out of the gate you are a crook or incompetent. Even after doing proper work priced fairly with no comebacks. Back in the ‘90’s, it seemed to be about 40% of the people walking through the door. No matter what you showed or told them, “You are scamming me!” Ever since you did this, the CD skips, the radio doesn’t play, the horn doesn’t work, this dent or scratch wasn’t there before, a dog bit me, etc.

Screw that, I didn’t have the patience for it and went back to fleet. God bless anyone that does have the patience. If you have a good repair shop, give them some support. You get a five dollar off coupon, ask your repair shop to knock off the $5 before going somewhere else.

sucks2beme

The problem is always money. Sometimes the cost of troubleshooting is the same
as the part. 90% of the time they are going to do the quick fix and get it out of the bay.
And often on warranty work, diagnostic time doesn't get paid
for(Toyota is bad for this) so the mechanic needs to find something to try.
And the dealer mechanic gets paid by the work he does. He can work all
day and not get paid for it. There are things that he can get paid
a lot of flat rate hours for if he knows how to do it quicker, but any more
that's becoming harder to do. The day of getting 80 "flat rate hours" in
a week is pretty rare. Mostly the hacks are the only ones still pulling it off.
Good mechanics are having a tough time of it. Service bays are what's keeping
most dealerships in the black, and they are pressing the techs hard to squeeze
out every penny. And their work shows it.

madmax

SCompRacer wrote: »

a dog bit me.

Oh, that was your place?

joeparaski

Polkitup2 wrote: »

If I thought I had to tip the mechanic to get good service I would not be using that shop.

I'd have to disagree...it's human nature to do that little "extra" when you get a tip in advance of doing the work. I used to have a customer that would give me a $20 bill before I even wrote up a work order for a simple oil change. I always gave this guy that extra attention.

Joe

SCompRacer

madmax wrote: »

oh, that was your place?

lmao!

joeparaski

SCompRacer wrote: »

This is one of the reasons I got out of the car repair biz. Right out of the gate you are a crook or incompetent. Even after doing proper work priced fairly with no comebacks. Back in the ‘90’s, it seemed to be about 40% of the people walking through the door. No matter what you showed or told them, “You are scamming me!” Ever since you did this, the CD skips, the radio doesn’t play, the horn doesn’t work, this dent or scratch wasn’t there before, a dog bit me, etc.

Screw that, I didn’t have the patience for it and went back to fleet. God bless anyone that does have the patience. If you have a good repair shop, give them some support. You get a five dollar off coupon, ask your repair shop to knock off the $5 before going somewhere else.

I agree with you 100% on this. Being a large national chain (Canadian Tire) we are constantly being dissed or taken advantage of, for the exact same reasons you stated. It's the way things are today...and it's exactly why we have cameras inside and outside the shop and even a microphone at the front counter to record all this.

We had one customer come back to us and say that we didn't put his mags back in the car when they were changed for his winter tires. We brought him into the security room and showed him the tape of the wheels clearly being put back into his car. We offered to call the police for him so that he can make a report for the stolen wheels...he shut up and left.

I've got plenty of those stories....thank you cameras and microphones.

Joe

joeparaski

obieone wrote: »

Sign up with AAA. They have a list of reputable auto repair shops all over the country. My brother in law says it takes forever to make the list, and it's easily lost, if you have 'x' number of complaints.

The only other thing I've done, is, stop by and actually SEE them working on the vehicle , my last instance was a relay in my dash causing a short, and draining the battery. Went by, and they had the dash out, so, it worked for me.

Not quite true....in some cases that little sign is a license to rip customers off with peace of mind. I knew a guy who worked at such a place...he quit after a week.

Joe

TouchOfEvil

The only way i bring my vehicle to someone is if it's under warranty, otherwise i do it myself. I simply do not trust people with my rides. If it's a warranty job well that means the dealer has it and it won't cost me a dime, so be it.

Tony M

Vette C6.r wrote: »

Score one for the good guys Joe.

Karma will come back to ya.

X2...It comes back 3 fold!

dorokusai

That's cool Joe....when you moving here?

Willow

I wish I knew someone like you here Joe. Heck, I should drive to MTL to get some work done. I think we are getting ripped off. We had our rear brakes done 1yr ago, then in the fall the tuned them up and grinded the rotors. Took it in the stealership for a full tune up on Sat. Apprarently, they say the local garge guy forgot to put the boots back on the rear calipers and they are now seized, and there is rust build-up causing a cluncking sound when we brake. They also say we need to get the tranny oil flushed as well as the power steering. How many times do people need to touch my rear brakes when the truck has only 72K kms. They said if they can't free up the pistons it's 250$ per caliper. :eek::mad:

fatchowmein

You kinda have to be part mechanic almost. What's worked for me is a Haynes and/or Chilton manual and the service schedule. Spending some time on forums help, too. I have a shop I trust to get the job done but only after I tell them exactly what I need. They do give me feedback but I don't always follow it and they don't mind. I like the fact that they suggest I provide my own part because it'll be cheaper but sometimes I'll have them buy the part if I have some sort of time constraint. For ten years, this relationship works.

Demiurge

joeparaski wrote: »

I'd have to disagree...it's human nature to do that little "extra" when you get a tip in advance of doing the work. I used to have a customer that would give me a $20 bill before I even wrote up a work order for a simple oil change. I always gave this guy that extra attention.

Joe

I too would avoid any shop where being well taken care of required me to tip the mechanic. They aren't doing me any favors on parts costs or labor rates. The incentive to take care of any customer correctly is repeat business, word of mouth that you or your shop is honest and thorough, and personal satisfaction of a job well done. That shouldn't require a tip.

I understand customs are different in different parts of our country and certainly vary around the world, but that's not something I have ever heard of around here.

Jstas

I worked for a guy who would get mad at me for telling the customer what was going on. He said I gave out too much info.

One time, he was out at court as an "expert witness" and he left the other guy in charge. Gave us a list of cars to fix. He left a stereo for me but never told me that the guy's ride was broken in to and the radio stolen. The temp solution was a hack job and I was hard pressed to find a way to ask the customer why he brought me this poo without being insulting. Well, he called after I had traced all the wires down and dressed them properly. I asked him what was up with the install and that's when he told me his buddy did it in the Domino's parking lot where they worked 'cause his tunes got ganked. I was relieved and showed him exactly what I could do to get it fixed up. He asked how much longer and I said, Now that I know what you need, I can have it working in 20 minutes. I can replace the dash bezel with a junkyard piece I'll paint up nice and pretty for you but that will take a day or two. Here's what I'll do, I'll finish it up, let you pay and take the car and I will call you when I have the new dash bezel all ready to go, you stop by, I'll have it done in 5 minutes, you're on your way. The kid was supremely happy. I got yelled at because I didn't just button it up and send him on his way with a hack job. I was like dude, that's not my style. I guess the fact that I had a kid who was so giddy that he called his buddy to tell him how we hooked him up AND he had to make a return trip. So I got a warm body in the door twice in one week! When he came back, he still gave me $10 for the extra mile. I got yelled at because "kids don't have any money and now they think they'll get stuff for free!" :rolleyes:

I had another guy with a 99 F-150 with a 5.4L V8 making the "popped spark plug" noise. It was a left over from the day before and the boss asked me to take a look at it. So I started it up and shut it down immediately. Started looking with a flashlight to see which plug was crooked. Found it and made a note. The parts guy showed up with parts I needed so I handled him. Then I got on the horn with the guy at the parts shop asking about helicoil kits from Ford for the cylinder head. While I was doing that, the owner came in and the boss man was talking to him. They started up the truck and I came out of the office. The boss is trying to sugar coat it for him and telling him it could be an exhaust leak. I was like "Uhhhh...no. It blew a plug out of the cylinder head." Then I went down the list of not-so-bad to worst-case scenarios as well as costs. The boss yells at me out back and tells me not to freak out the customer. I was like "Dude, what do you want? I know exactly what the problem is and what I can try to fix it. I'm not going to screw him with excessive work or overcharge him. He needs the work done, there' no "band-aid" for this." I got told I should have just tried to tighten it up and see how it works. But if I did that, the plug would just blow out again and if enough material comes with it, it's $2200 for a new cylinder head plus a solid 8 hours of work at least instead of $125 for the helicoil kit and 3 hours of labor." The owner heard us yelling at each other and on his way out, he stopped and thanked me for being honest.

I also used to get yelled at for billing hours worked instead of flat rate. If the book said 6 hours for a brake job in an Explorer and I banged it out in 4, I saved the owner $130 in labor and was happy to do it. He flipped out on me. Said my pay would reflect it. He was a jerk. He was a good mechanic but he always approached it as the opposite way, the customer was trying to screw him.



As for what I do, well, I have a skill level above the average shadetree mechanic so if I'm taking it in, it's cause I can't fix it myself for lack of tools/space/time. I usually know what's wrong and I do the diagnostics myself so I walk right in, hand the service writer the tech sheet from the ALLDATA that I have and tell him I need this work done, please do it. Otherwise, the only time the truck sees the dealer is for an NJ State inspection because the monkeys at the inspection station scare the hell out of me.

sucks2beme

Jstas wrote: »

I worked for a guy who would get mad at me for telling the customer what was going on. He said I gave out too much info.

I had another guy with a 99 F-150 with a 5.4L V8 making the "popped spark plug" noise. It was a left over from the day before and the boss asked me to take a look at it. So I started it up and shut it down immediately. Started looking with a flashlight to see which plug was crooked. Found it and made a note. The parts guy showed up with parts I needed so I handled him. Then I got on the horn with the guy at the parts shop asking about helicoil kits from Ford for the cylinder head. While I was doing that, the owner came in and the boss man was talking to him. They started up the truck and I came out of the office. The boss is trying to sugar coat it for him and telling him it could be an exhaust leak. I was like "Uhhhh...no. It blew a plug out of the cylinder head." Then I went down the list of not-so-bad to worst-case scenarios as well as costs. The boss yells at me out back and tells me not to freak out the customer. I was like "Dude, what do you want? I know exactly what the problem is and what I can try to fix it. I'm not going to screw him with excessive work or overcharge him. He needs the work done, there' no "band-aid" for this." I got told I should have just tried to tighten it up and see how it works. But if I did that, the plug would just blow out again and if enough material comes with it, it's $2200 for a new cylinder head plus a solid 8 hours of work at least instead of $125 for the helicoil kit and 3 hours of labor." The owner heard us yelling at each other and on his way out, he stopped and thanked me for being honest.

.

I had one blow out next to the dealership. I limped it two blocks, and they looked at it and quoted me the price of a new head. One mechanic offered me $600 for it as is. I knew right then that something was up. I towed it
home, and found out about a a kit called timesert that's way better than a heli-coil. I called around and found a engine rebuilding supplier that had the kit. Best $400 I ever spent. Just follow instructions, and it works great.
The dealership was going to charge $3600 to fix it their way. You can't blame them. That's the official Ford answer to the problem is the new head with more threads than the old ones. A couple of years later, a second one on the other head blew out. It only took about an hour for me to do that one.
I think it's been 4 years since then, and so far so good. I'm no mechanic,
but I am able to much of my own work. And now that junior is a network
engineer instead of a mechanic, I've got his Snap-on box of goodies
sitting out in my garage. Betwwen his and mine, there' not much we don't have.

joeparaski

Demiurge wrote: »

I too would avoid any shop where being well taken care of required me to tip the mechanic. They aren't doing me any favors on parts costs or labor rates. The incentive to take care of any customer correctly is repeat business, word of mouth that you or your shop is honest and thorough, and personal satisfaction of a job well done. That shouldn't require a tip.

I understand customs are different in different parts of our country and certainly vary around the world, but that's not something I have ever heard of around here.

Demiurge, the tip thing in NOT a requirement at our shop nor any other shop as far as I know. I'm just saying that it's a normal human response thing and that the tech takes care of your vehicle just a bit better than he would normally.

I do this myself when I go get my snowmobile serviced...I go see the guy working on it, hand him $10 bucks, and ask him to take care of my baby.

Joe

joeparaski

Jstas wrote: »

I also used to get yelled at for billing hours worked instead of flat rate. If the book said 6 hours for a brake job in an Explorer and I banged it out in 4, I saved the owner $130 in labor and was happy to do it. He flipped out on me. Said my pay would reflect it. He was a jerk. He was a good mechanic but he always approached it as the opposite way, the customer was trying to screw him.


*****************************************************************************


I'm afraid I'd have to side with the boss on this one. One of the reasons a shop needs to bill the flat rate is to be able to give the customer a fairly accurate estimate before the work starts. If Shopkey or Alldata says 4.5 hours for a timing belt, you make an estimate showing 4.5 hours of labor. Because Bernie the mechanic may have less experience or is generally slower and he'll take 6 hours to do the job. While Philip who has done that same timing belt 10 times already is drinking Red Bull and gets the job done in 2 hours. Yes, the shop owner makes more profit but things usually balance out overall with the jobs that take more time than expected, or a comeback job that needs to be redone at the shops' expense.

Flat rate makes things fair for the shop and for the customers because different mechanics work at different speeds and skill levels. If it were strictly based on hours worked, customers would ask for Jstas only to work on their cars because of his knowledge and speed. But if I were the owner of a shop that worked by hourly rate, I'd charge a higher hourly rate if the customer wanted Jstas.

Hourly rates are generally used only when you cannot establish a fixed rate, such as when trouble-shooting an electrical problem. In cases like this I'll bill the customer one hours' labor and then call him with a progress report and ask him if he wants to continue.

Joe

joeparaski

edit

joeparaski

Something else to add...

Coincidentally, we have an "hourly rate" troubleshooting job in the shop right now...a GMC Savanna with fuel injectors intermittently cutting out. The customer was called and he ok'd the first hour...in that hour, the tech concluded that the problem was in the wiring harness and that the wiring harness would have to be opened up and the wires checked individually.

I took pictures of the wires to show the customer (I ALWAYS have my digital camera with me). I've attached the pictures so you can see....in the first photo, follow the green wire to the lower right corner and you can see that the wire is bare, denoting that someone has played around with the vehicle before and did not properly repair the wiring (or whatever it was he was trying to do). The second photo shows the lower orange wire clearly severed in 2 from corrosion. These wire were protected in a wire loom, the most logical reason that this wire corroded and split in 2 is because someone in the past poked the wire with a test light, leaving a little hole for the corrosion to start.

Sometimes, pictures are worth a thousand words, or in the case of a repair shop, comfort that the customer spent his money for a reason. For example, replacing and evaporator core on a Chrysler Intrepid is a 5.5 hour job according to Shopkey software. This job took closer to 9 hours because I just couldn't spare my best tech on this job, we had to use an apprentice and have the experienced tech look in on him now and then and answer his questions. The customer was charged 5.5 hours as per book time. I also took a picture of the job so the customer can understand WHY he was charged 5.5 hours PLUS refilling the A/C. ONE look at the picture and he fully understood the magnitude of the job.....the entire dash had to be removed!

Joe

audiobliss

Hey, an evaporator core! Helped a friend replace one in his 1988 Thunderbird. Didn't have to totally remove the dash, but it certainly was an incredible bear to tackle! There were several times throughout the job I didn't think we could actually do it, but we stuck with it, leaning on the other's clear-headedness and encouragement when one was frustrated with it. Quite the learning experience!

danger boy

there are lots of good auto repair shops out there.. and of course those that either don't do good work or rip you off by placing stuff your car doesn't need.

good shops though are going to cost you more... and you'll see it on the bill or when the bill is rung up. the more "exotic" your car is the more you can expect to pay for repairs.

i usually trust my cars to the shops I take them too. but they are higher priced than the guy down the street. the shop does good work, and he won't sell me stuff my car doesn't need. but he's far from the lowest priced shop.