Redundancy....
JoshParsons84
Posts: 565
Ya know how ya feel when you're the kid at the back of the class and ya dont understand, but you don't dare raise your hand and ask the teacher for help? Because everybody's gonna make fun of ya cuz ya don't get it? Well that's how I feel....I read and I read and I read and I read some more then I'll try things....sounds like crap. So I read and I read and I read some more and still don't get it. Then I ask questions that I've asked before and it gets to the point of being redundant but I'm sorry to say that I still don't understand any and all what the hell I'm doing. So Arun asked me to make a new thread and list my stereo and my goals with it so here we go:
CD Player: Alpine CDA-9831
Front Comp: Boston SX50
4-channel Amp: Alpine PDX-4.400
Sub: Boston SPG555SS (sealed)
Sub Amp: Alpine PDX-1.1000
Wiring: Rockford Fosgate 4guage dual amp kit w/Optima Yellow Top Batt
I guess now I should go into detail what my goals would be for this system. First of all my car is a 98 Grand Prix GTP supercharged with 5.25 for fronts and 6x9 AND 4" for the rears. My comps left tweet is blown due to distortion (AGAIN) for some reason it's the left side blows then it'll only be right side left to play. Happened previously with my Pro's. Sub the same - missing a chunk out of the rubber surround due to distortion. So everything at this point except for amps needs upgraded. I do like the sound of the Bostons however I just have not heard the Polk comps but have heard the Polk db box and it sounded fantastic. I think I just got suckered into the Bostons by the people I was dealing with at the time and where I haven't heard basically anything else probably the reason I like them so well.
Furthermore, my Alpine amps are freaking bad ****! I love them and couldn't ask for a better amplifier. I listen to like 70/30 Metal,Rock / Rap. Not a fan of rap music really at all but the ladies like the club music so I have a small collection just for that purpose only, so I mostly listen to heavy metal. And I'm guessing for that reason than I want an SQ setup because I could care less about busting my back glass out of my car. I've been to plenty of metal concerts to know I want my car to sound just like it. I like my sub to hit for rock really hard like rap does but not the crappy sound that rap puts out. My mids dunno much bout how they should sound, but I'm guessing with a heavy guitar they should be loud of course and ?thick? maybe the sound? SORRY Onto the tweets I like them to be as crisp as possible and something I'm finding out bout these Bostons are afterwards my ears are ringing something awful so I'm guessing that is the "bright" sound everybody talks about. I wanna build me a nice custom enclosure also for whatever I stick with but that'll come with installation.
Alright Arun there ya go everything I can think of in a nutshell. Where do I go from here?
CD Player: Alpine CDA-9831
Front Comp: Boston SX50
4-channel Amp: Alpine PDX-4.400
Sub: Boston SPG555SS (sealed)
Sub Amp: Alpine PDX-1.1000
Wiring: Rockford Fosgate 4guage dual amp kit w/Optima Yellow Top Batt
I guess now I should go into detail what my goals would be for this system. First of all my car is a 98 Grand Prix GTP supercharged with 5.25 for fronts and 6x9 AND 4" for the rears. My comps left tweet is blown due to distortion (AGAIN) for some reason it's the left side blows then it'll only be right side left to play. Happened previously with my Pro's. Sub the same - missing a chunk out of the rubber surround due to distortion. So everything at this point except for amps needs upgraded. I do like the sound of the Bostons however I just have not heard the Polk comps but have heard the Polk db box and it sounded fantastic. I think I just got suckered into the Bostons by the people I was dealing with at the time and where I haven't heard basically anything else probably the reason I like them so well.
Furthermore, my Alpine amps are freaking bad ****! I love them and couldn't ask for a better amplifier. I listen to like 70/30 Metal,Rock / Rap. Not a fan of rap music really at all but the ladies like the club music so I have a small collection just for that purpose only, so I mostly listen to heavy metal. And I'm guessing for that reason than I want an SQ setup because I could care less about busting my back glass out of my car. I've been to plenty of metal concerts to know I want my car to sound just like it. I like my sub to hit for rock really hard like rap does but not the crappy sound that rap puts out. My mids dunno much bout how they should sound, but I'm guessing with a heavy guitar they should be loud of course and ?thick? maybe the sound? SORRY Onto the tweets I like them to be as crisp as possible and something I'm finding out bout these Bostons are afterwards my ears are ringing something awful so I'm guessing that is the "bright" sound everybody talks about. I wanna build me a nice custom enclosure also for whatever I stick with but that'll come with installation.
Alright Arun there ya go everything I can think of in a nutshell. Where do I go from here?
Post edited by JoshParsons84 on
Comments
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Nice to hear you like the amps. I'm gonna buy PDX 4.150 to my SR's and the PDX 1.600 to my JL w6 sub very soon.Pioneer P88RS-II | Polk Audio SR5250 | JL Audio 12w6v2 | 2x Genesis 3 Stereo 100 | Genesis 3 Monoblock
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If you want bright sounding components go with Focal. Start at the VR series and go up. Try to work a 6.5 inch into your doors I don't think the 5.25 will play loud enough for you. If you have the money then go with a three way setup but you will have to pay for custom kick panel but from my experience its worth it. The SR series subs are excellent subwoofers. One 12" ported would work great. Dump the rear speakers and use the openings to allow the sound to get into the car. The JL Audio 12w6 is also a great sub that would work for you. If you want louder then go with two 12w3's. You have the beginnings of a great system. Make sure you find a great installer when it comes time for installation services.. It does make a difference....
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Yes the 12w6v2 is an excellent subwoofer.
Pioneer P88RS-II | Polk Audio SR5250 | JL Audio 12w6v2 | 2x Genesis 3 Stereo 100 | Genesis 3 Monoblock -
How bout 1 SR 12" in this high SPL ported box or the 2 db 12's in the Polk box?
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Don't ever be afraid of raising your hand and asking. At most you'll hear no, which is fine then you ask someone else. But you won't get, until you ask.
The hu is good, decent tuning features. The amps are good, like you said. Just change the tweeter and sub. For Gods sake, turn them gains down....thats the second tweet you've blown.
I think as a first step you need to run stuff that's working. Little point in tuning with only one tweeter and the sub out of control.
Do you want to try and tune the setup as is or are looking for advise on replacing the tweet / fronts and the sub? Don't want to write a long post only to discover you wanted something else. -
To tell you the truth on the 2nd tweet now, I think it maybe a wiring issue. It seems awful funny that the passenger side blew 2nd time in a row and not even phasing the driver side hmmm......I guess tho I need advice on a lil both tuning what I can right now and then maybe advice on replacement.
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set tweet gains properly. if tweet still blows, check amp for fault
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That SPG555 sub you have is awesome, by the way. I can't think of a reason to change that out of your set up. If you are looking to go in a different direction, and plan on selling just the enclosure without the sub, let me know!
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it's small tight and compact and I can buy repair kit off crutchfield for lil over $100 dunno if i'll get rid of it i i really like it pretty well. It's in the sealed box which is really small and I dunno if the enclosure being sealed blew my sub of if I blew my sub lol
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Sorry about making you write that first post and then kinda leaving you dangling. No I'm not ignoring your post. Things are really stretched around here. Will try and get started tmrw.
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LOL OK arun but I wasn't at all that impatient I have a lot on my plate also
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You need to go step by step, to reach your goal of listening to a metal concert in your car. Though, I have no clue what that would sound like. Mac's the 'metal' guy. I'm into classic rock from the 60's-80's, jazz, reggae and some good old cheezy 70's-80's pop
You need to cover issues like equipment, setup (the way things are connected), install, learning to listen and then tuning. To get the most out of tuning you have to put everything else in place.
Your hu is fine and the amps are good. You really don't need three pairs of speakers. Components up front and the sub at the back is enough. Sell the 6x9 and the 4" and use the proceeds to fix your fronts and the sub. The idea is to get things working at the lowest cost. Repair or replacement. Your real life priorities are more important. So keeping this cheap is the right way for now. Bringing up kids isn't easy, single handed deserves kudos. The Bostons are bright, but we can correct this a bit with setup and tuning.
Your setup, is how things are connected and set. If you do get rid of the rears then bi-amp the components. This is when you're each driver with its own amp channel. 4 drivers, 4 amp channels. This will allow you to set the gains separately for your mids and tweets. Setting the tweets gains lower than the mids is one way to make the tweeters less bright. Don't run the gains too high, in the quest for 'louder'. You're powering a 65 rms speaker with 100 watts.
Get your install looked at by someone who's competent. When I did this I discovered the speaker wire wasn't a full run length, it had multiple joints. It will also help in identifying if the tweets are blowing for reasons other than gain settings.
Having a reference point is essential. You seem to be familiar with the concert sound. Listen to your music on a decent 2 ch setup. A visit to an audio store and listening to your music in the demo room would also give you a good idea. Carry cd's that you normally listen to.
Listen with your eyes closed. listen for tonality, balance between lows, mids highs and for the visuals you see. Do you see the stage in front of you? The vocalist at one spot the drums at another the bassist at another etc? Thats the image that everyone talks about. Now open your eyes and see how the equipment is set up. You'll notice that you're sitting at a certain distance from the speakers which are more or less equi-distance from you. Both speakers are facing you (on axis) and there are no obstructions between where you sit and the speakers.
Now listen to the same cd's in the car with your eyes closed. Chances are the experience will be totally different. Now open your eyes and look around. You're sitting much closer to one speaker than the other, one is directly on axis (far side) and the closer one is almost totally off axis. There are many obstructions between the speakers and your ears. There are tons of surfaces off which the sounds would reflect and bounce around.
Tuning then, is a way to correct for all these issues, to get you sound like you heard in the demo room. Like I said, lets take it step by step. Even if you don't want to get into all the details but just have decent sound, you need to put the initial things in place. -
Well right now I've got both sub amp and 4ch gains set at 10:00 usually turning vol on hu to 25-28 depending on what i'm listenin to what time of day etc. 4ch amp: filter is on OFF, crossover is on 110hz (12:00) and input channel is on 1+3/2+4...input channel I still haven't understood yet. OK movin on to sub amp: gain select is on 0.1v-1.0v (if switched over to 1.0v-8.0v sub barely even hits at all and gain has to be up to like 3/4 to even sound decent) LP filter is on 1 notch above 75 (10:00) and subsonic filter is on 15hz (another thing I still have no idea about). HU frequencies I still am very unsure about and another thing I'm thinking could be a factor into things. HU subwoofer level stays at about 10 (wanna turn to 0 BUT sub barely moves). I'm thinkin on my sub amp my gain select should be set to 1.0v-8.0v (but what the hell do I know) but just dont move sub. HU frequences are set at 1.)90hz with 3.0curve 2.)150hz with 1.5curve 3.)1khz with 3.0curve 4.)12.5khz with 1 set curve frequence 4 is boosted to +3 and eveything else is attentuated OH ALSO on HU HPF is 120hz and LPF is 80hz. Sub amp still shutting off when it hits really hard and cannot for the life figure that out AND until I do there's no reason in dishing out money to replace that sub cuz it's gonna damn blow again. Now that that's said what's all this talk bout mids crossing over at 50hz on 30db slope and blah blah I dont know what in the hell all that means....you said take it one step at a time. Well that's now what I'm doing. I'm gonna start looking hard for a very competant Car Audio shop and start REALLY building my system professionally. I'm gonna take out my Polk db691 and Boston s45 and sell those and leave my holes open. My sub although non-Polk I truly love but wondering if the sealed box instead of ported played a factor in things? Far as wiring goes I'm gonna have them take out all wire leading to rear speakers and get rid of Rockford wire and cables and get quality grade (suggestions) same for power and ground wire and upgrade distribution block, fuse holder and battery terminals....yeah I really DO wanna go all out on it step-by-step though
OK that's my ambitions. What you think about the layaway idea? That's just about everything I can think that I need to say LOL so I welcome your suggestions, criticism and above all guidance! -
Your SPG555 is a high output woofer, on par or more so than a W7. It has handled everything I throw at it well, including difficult bass lines that with other subwoofers sounded terrible. I currently have the ported version of what you have in my car and the output is enormous. I have 750 watts going to it. I can't imagine that a sealed enclosure would have a massive dropoff in output. I actually want to go sealed and save space in my trunk, but they apparently discontinued the SPG555SS model. I'm not sure if you need the repair done or you need to switch some settings on your hu and amp (I'm sure others will chime in who are more familiar with your equipment), but the sub itself is a top performer when set up correctly.
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Gains are fine leave them there.. If the filter is off, it won't matter where the xover dial is set. 1+2/3+4 are your front and rear channels.
You would normally set your sub amps gain in the 1-8v range, since youre running a signal at higher voltage from the hu's pre-outs. If you were running speaker level inputs to the amp you'd use the 0.1-1v setting. By running the sub on the 0.1-1v, even with missing surrounds, you're risking the voice coil. The sub would try and pull more power than what the amp can make. The amp would be driven into clipping and the circuit protection built into the amp would shut it down for a second. This is a sure shot way of blowing the speaker.
Suggest you put it back on the 1-8v and make do with a little less bass till you get the sub repaired. 1-8v does'nt move your sub because theres no control on it due to missing surrounds. BTW have you always run the sub on the 0.1-1v range? After you get your sub working, disengage the sub-sonic. Engaging the sub-sonic gives a boost at the selected frequency. But you're striving for balance so you don't want bumps and dips. Set the sub level at 0 once its repaired.
You will have to set the sub/mid crossover point at your hu. I think the lowest you can select is 80 so start with that. Start with crossing both sub (LPF) and mids(HPF) at 80. Then try sub at 80 and mid at 120, which is where u have it now. See what sounds good. Since you can't disengage the low pass on your mono amp, set that at or slightly higher than where you have set the LPF at the hu. Forget about the mids at 50hz bit. Your hu does'nt allow you to do all this. For now just focus on understanding and setting what you have and can do.
Speaker wire is not so important. As long as you have a running length (no joints ), the RF wires would be fine. Around 12gg wire is whats recommended. Don't spend more than you have to here.
The eq, this is the fun bit. Ideally we should do this once all the drivers are working. I really have no idea what these settings will sound like with one tweet and a dysfunctional sub. What the heck lets give it a spin. You've got to stop blowing speakers though. Just stay within the 'loudness' limit of your equipment.
Try these settings and lets hear what it sounds like.
1. Band 1 - 60hz try boosting a bit here at a band width of 2
2. Band 2 - select 150hz and pinch down like 2-3db's at a 1.5 width
3. Band 3 - select 1khz and pinch down here by 4-5db's at a width of 2 this should also make your tweets less bright.
4. Band 4 - select 12.5khz and boost a bit here
See if this sounds better. Keep band 3 attenuated and play with the rest. Have tried to keep this as non technical as I could. -
WOW!!! Now we're gettin somewhere Arun....I can actually understand every single word you just told me LMAO. Ya know what? I think I have all along had my mono set on 0.1-1.0v. OK I think I just found the tutorial I've been lookin for LOL and I think after I play with this I might be able to start to have a gist...not an understanding but at least a gist of "This Thing Of Ours" thanks a bunch Arun I'm gonna go try everything out right now and then post back after while.
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Update....spent a lil time playing and man you were like right on the money about everything. I mean granted it's playin on busted **** but the fact of the matter is I'm confident that it's sounding the way it's supposed to now. I didn't know before how bright those tweeters in fact were but they're a lot cleaner now but in-turn much brighter than before. I can't wait to get my sub fixed and the new Pro's. My Polk db 6x9 and Boston s45 are FOR SALE now.
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You would'nt count Bostons, Focal etc in the list of speakers that have laid back tweets. Instead of boosting at 12khz try pinching down a bit at 6khz.
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Can't....Band 4 goes down to 10khz
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Well...tried a lil trial and error the other day and put the xover on my 4ch on what I think is 120hz (it's between 110 and 160) and turned my filter on to HP and that opened up a whole new doorway! Now for you people who know what you're doing this is probably boring to you but to me....it's very exciting! Everything in general is just so much morecleaner sounding. Granted my equipment is still busted but I think it might be as good as my mids/highs are supposed to sound (at least on the driver side) not so much on the passenger side but that's alright cuz not a lot of people ride with me. So on my side it's freaking awesome. Those Bostons are really bright, I'm kinda interested in seeing what more "warmer" sounding speakers like the Polks sound like.
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Josh,
You don't blow a surround out because of distortion. You blow a surround out when you dump 2000 watts onto a 200 watt speaker. The pole piece drives the cone half way to China and back again, tearing everything to shreds. At that point, nothing is repairable. I'd dump every speaker you have and start fresh.
That said, you also have to consider where the gains are set on your amplifiers -- if you're clipping the hell out of everything because you've got the gains into the floor, that's not good either.
That said, a decent set of 100 w speakers, all the way around, and a 1000 watt sub will do you wonders.
I typically cross a speaker over at 12 DB @ 80 to 100 Hz -- and a sub at 12 DB @ 80 to 100 Hz. You'll find that on lower power applications you can usually dump 75 to 80 hertz through an 'infinite-baffle' mounted door speaker or deck speaker... but when you creep up, it just can't do it without risking damage. I'm sitting around 175 / 200 per channel to my fronts, and they're crossed over at 100 @ 12 DB.
Image Dynamics makes some sick woofers. An IDMax would do wonderfully on 1000 watts, and slap the **** out of anything JL makes.
As a previous poster stated, Focal makes a very nice midrange / tweeter. Stay away from Boston / MB Quart / etc...The Artist formerly known as PoweredByDodge -
PoweredByDodge wrote: »Stay away from Boston / MB Quart / etc...
Not to dispute your word because I love any and all criticism whether negative or positive but just because I dunno any better why stay away from the Bostons? I actually found a site where I can get my surround and spider for $100 and the Boston ProSE's for $300 with free shipping. But not to get off track I kinda like the bright tweet of the Bostons for a min ya know and then it gets really fatiguing on my ear after like a long trip or something. But honestly if you go to a metal concert (which is my kind of music) when ya leave your ears are ringing for a couple days afterwards. -
Most any time I've run into a set of Boston Acoustics it's been when someone has a set of them blown or otherwise non-functional. It's kind of like driving down the road and seeing the same model of car broke down along the shoulder over and over again... MB Quart (after about 2004, in my observation) is the same way. Although I actually gave Quart a chance, only to be gravely disappointed.
Going a bit further... buying a surround and spider and trying to do a woofer repair on your own is not exactly a first-timer's job. I would caution you greatly regarding this, as the least little glueing out of alignment will cause damage to any of or all of the pole piece / former / and coil. So basically you'd be throwing away 100 bucks. Whereas you could get a brand new IDMax for 300 or so on ebay.
personally, i like a loud defined but smooth tweeter (i'm a big fan of silk domes). some other guys like loaded horns, bullets, or ribbons. i've always preferred just a simple silk dome.The Artist formerly known as PoweredByDodge -
PoweredByDodge wrote: »personally, i like a loud defined but smooth tweeter (i'm a big fan of silk domes). some other guys like loaded horns, bullets, or ribbons. i've always preferred just a simple silk dome.
How would you describe that "sound" VS Bostons Alloy Dome tweet? As far as the surround and spider...I wouldn't even be attempting to mess with that. I'll have my guys do that for me. -
I haven't heard that particular tweeter, but, in general, a metal dome tweeter is typically more 'tinny' ('ring-y' if that's a word) than a silk dome.The Artist formerly known as PoweredByDodge
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Yeah, I definately have to agree with ya. This is my first system so I'm not 100% sure yet if this is indeed the tweet that I like. I do know by listening to my dad's systems over the years and hearing his tweets like Kove and Power Acoustics that I really do love the Bostons. But on the other hand, where I'm an absolute newbie I wanna hear ALL I'm really just looking for a mid/tweet/sub combo that I'm gonna like the best for heavy rock and metal cuz I'm a humongous metal fanatic the heavier the better IMO I'm hearing Polks SR's mids and tweets are like eargasms for rock & roll music but I wouldn't mind trying Alpine Type-X Pro's but I think that'd be more because I have the Alpine PDX amps tho. Also I really wanna find something that I'm just like "DAMN" and not have to upgrade for a while cuz I'd kinda like to fix up my supercharged Grand Prix and add some performance goodies on it.
