WTF-can someone explain this to me?

jrgoswick
jrgoswick Posts: 159
edited April 2010 in Vintage Speakers
I AM TOTALLY PISSED!! My fathers M10's have MUCH TIGHTER low end than my M12's. I've got double the power and a little larger room. They are about 11 feet apart(versus pops at about 7) and tilted into the sweet spot(I'd say about 19 degrees-versus pop at about 5). Is this issue due to his being spiked(two in the front of the cabinet, one in the rear-an isosceles triangle pattern) and mine not spiked. Mine are also tilted up on the factory runners for the M12's. Pops spikes only allow about a 5 or 6 degree tilt. We both agree that my mid-range is more defined. Dad's will SWALLOW my 12's on the low end(We're using Crystal Methods Vegas, and The Who's Quadraphenia for listening). Up top it's a tie(we can't decide).

I've been seeing a lot of people using Dynamat on the baskets, and using mortite on the cabinets. Might this help me out a bit in this area? Should I spike them? HELP!!!!!
Onkyo TX-SR705 AVR
Onkyo M-501-Given to my father.
Onkyo DX-C730 CD Changer
Onkyo DV-BD507 Blu Ray player
Onkyo CP-1036A turntable with Grado, Audio Technique, and Azden cartridges(GOT CARTRIDGE??)
Polk Monitor 12's with RDO's and XO's
Polk CS300 Center
Polk Monitor Series 4 rears

EBAY is like cocaine. At first you only look, next thing you know, your house is full of crap you have no idea why you own.:eek:
Post edited by jrgoswick on
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  • wayne3burk
    wayne3burk Posts: 939
    edited April 2010
    are the both the same distance from the wall behind???

    If I remember right in the set-up instructions for SDA-1C studios (also have passive radiators) it says that the distance you have them from the wall will effect how much low bass you get, i.e., the closer to the wall the more bass.

    go figure.

    I have my new Monitor 10Bs only about 4 inches from the wall behind them and feel like i'm getting better low base than i was getting from my SDA-1Cs which i had about 9 inches from the wall.

    :) wayne :(
    Yamaha RX-V2700, EMI 711As (front), RCA K-16 (rear), Magnavox Console (Center & TV Stand), Sony SMP-N200 media streamer, Dual 1249 TT =--- Sharp Aquas 60" LCD tellie
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  • Ron Temple
    Ron Temple Posts: 3,212
    edited April 2010
    The spikes and placement will help things for you...some...maybe a whole lot. I've not heard the 12s, but some of the criticism I've read is that the bass and mids are a tad muddy and/or bloated when compared to SDAs (not 10s). Sounds like your dad has the 10s in an optimum situation. Dynamat and Mortite will also help your 12s.

    Combo rig:

    Onkyo NR1007 pre-pro, Carver TFM 45(fronts), Carver TFM 35 (surrounds)
    SDA 1C, CS400i, SDA 2B
    PB13Ultra RO
    BW Silvers
    Oppo BDP-83SE
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,986
    edited April 2010
    Have you tightened all the screws down on your 12's?
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • polkfarmboy
    polkfarmboy Posts: 5,703
    edited April 2010
    Borrow your dads 10's

    Take the home for a night and experiment with the suggestions posted in the thread
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  • jrgoswick
    jrgoswick Posts: 159
    edited April 2010
    Wayne-They're about 4 inches on the inside and 6 1/4 on the outside.
    Ron-Guess I'm ordering spikes, dynamat, and a trip to home depot.
    Russman-EVERYTHING is tight
    polkfarmboy-NOT A CHANCE IN HELL(dads words, not mine).
    Onkyo TX-SR705 AVR
    Onkyo M-501-Given to my father.
    Onkyo DX-C730 CD Changer
    Onkyo DV-BD507 Blu Ray player
    Onkyo CP-1036A turntable with Grado, Audio Technique, and Azden cartridges(GOT CARTRIDGE??)
    Polk Monitor 12's with RDO's and XO's
    Polk CS300 Center
    Polk Monitor Series 4 rears

    EBAY is like cocaine. At first you only look, next thing you know, your house is full of crap you have no idea why you own.:eek:
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  • TECHNOKID
    TECHNOKID Posts: 4,298
    edited April 2010
    I think placement should be your priority to look at at this point. Trying your Dad's speaker at your place (same placement) is not a bad idea and why don't you try your 12s at your Dad's place using his actual placement. Maybe room treathment???

    Good luck!
    TK
    DARE TO SOAR:
    “Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life” ;)
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  • falconcry72
    falconcry72 Posts: 3,580
    edited April 2010
    are you comparing with the same amp(s)?...
    2-Channel: PC > Schiit Eitr > Audio Research DAC-8 > Audio Research LS-26 > Pass Labs X-250.5 > Magnepan 3.7's

    Living Room: PC > Marantz AV-7703 > Emotiva XPA-5 > Sonus Faber Liuto Towers, Sonus Faber Liuto Center, Sonus Faber Liuto Bookshelves > Dual SVS PC12-Pluses

    Office: Phone/Tablet > AudioEngine B1 > McIntosh D100 > Bryston 4B-ST > Polk Audio LSiM-703's
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  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited April 2010
    Do you have the 12s on the floor or on a stand ? Polk made stands for the 12s about 2 inches with a slight tilt up. I made stands for mine that was a wedge 2inches in the front going to 1.5 inches in the rear.
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited April 2010
    Speaker placement in reference to the back wall will affect the bass greatly. I was having trouble with bass response on my 1.2TLs. They were originally 1.5' from the back wall, I inch by inch moved them back, doing the SDA waltz, and when I hit 8" from the back wall voila!

    Also, Dynamat, Mortite, & spike 'em! The Mortite and spikes will definitely tighten and deepen the bass. Here's a link to the best spikes made;

    https://myesound.com/Points_n_pads.html

    The Dynamat will clean up your mids.
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  • jrgoswick
    jrgoswick Posts: 159
    edited April 2010
    Don't remember who asked-but yes, they're on the factory tilted stands. WHEN I spike these, should I do the spikes into the stands or the cabinets? Should I use spikes at all corners, or spikes in the front, pads in the rear? Any input on this would be great.
    Onkyo TX-SR705 AVR
    Onkyo M-501-Given to my father.
    Onkyo DX-C730 CD Changer
    Onkyo DV-BD507 Blu Ray player
    Onkyo CP-1036A turntable with Grado, Audio Technique, and Azden cartridges(GOT CARTRIDGE??)
    Polk Monitor 12's with RDO's and XO's
    Polk CS300 Center
    Polk Monitor Series 4 rears

    EBAY is like cocaine. At first you only look, next thing you know, your house is full of crap you have no idea why you own.:eek:
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  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited April 2010
    I think something else is going on. Room size, placement and gear may be the issue and needs to be bottomed out before jumping off the deep end.

    If you father will not allow the 10s out to play maybe you need to take your 12s over to his place.
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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  • Polkie2009
    Polkie2009 Posts: 3,834
    edited April 2010
    +1 on what thsmith said. Take the 12's to his place and compare the 2 there.
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  • comfortablycurt
    comfortablycurt Posts: 6,745
    edited April 2010
    There are lots of variables here. What is your dad driving his 10's with? What are you using with the 12's?

    Placement can also make or break a pair of speakers. Play around some with back wall spacing and different amounts of toe in.


    The mortite and dynamat mods will also make a big difference in the low end department.
    The nirvana inducer-
    APC H10 Power Conditioner
    Marantz UD5005 universal player
    Parasound Halo P5 preamp
    Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
    PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
    Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's
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  • jrgoswick
    jrgoswick Posts: 159
    edited April 2010
    I'm using a modded M-501 Onkyo and he's using a Harmon Kardon HK770(I think-it's rated 70 WPC@8ohms, more like 100). His is totally factory, mine is not-has the necessary(mandatory) mods. It's rated 150wpc@8ohms from the factory. I'm now guessing it more like 195 or 200(due to more available current). Guess it's looking like the M12's are taking a road trip. Still going to order the spikes, dynamat, and take a trip to home depot.
    Onkyo TX-SR705 AVR
    Onkyo M-501-Given to my father.
    Onkyo DX-C730 CD Changer
    Onkyo DV-BD507 Blu Ray player
    Onkyo CP-1036A turntable with Grado, Audio Technique, and Azden cartridges(GOT CARTRIDGE??)
    Polk Monitor 12's with RDO's and XO's
    Polk CS300 Center
    Polk Monitor Series 4 rears

    EBAY is like cocaine. At first you only look, next thing you know, your house is full of crap you have no idea why you own.:eek:
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  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited April 2010
    I think you will hear a different speaker at your Dad's. My stock 12s (except for RDOs) had plenty of bass. I mortited them and it tightened up the bass a bit but not a night and day difference.

    I use mysesound spikes on my 1Cs and that did make a difference but the way you descibe it something else is going on.
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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  • PSOVLSK
    PSOVLSK Posts: 5,227
    edited April 2010
    thsmith wrote: »
    If you father will not allow the 10s out to play maybe you need to take your 12s over to his place.

    Another vote for this advice.
    jrgoswick wrote: »
    Don't remember who asked-but yes, they're on the factory tilted stands. WHEN I spike these, should I do the spikes into the stands or the cabinets? Should I use spikes at all corners, or spikes in the front, pads in the rear? Any input on this would be great.

    I wouldn't think you'd want to spike them if you're using stands...but I could be wrong.
    Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited April 2010
    jrgoswick wrote: »
    Don't remember who asked-but yes, they're on the factory tilted stands. WHEN I spike these, should I do the spikes into the stands or the cabinets? Should I use spikes at all corners, or spikes in the front, pads in the rear? Any input on this would be great.

    Spike the stands on all four corners.
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  • Bobsama
    Bobsama Posts: 526
    edited April 2010
    Double-check on the midwoofers & passive radiator. I remember hearing that M12's tend to have muddier bass than M10's. Otherwise, what about preamp stage? Ensure both have loudness contour off and EQ off (of course).
    polkaudio Monitor 5 Series II
    polkaudio SDA-1 (with the SL1000)
    TEAC AG-H300 MK III stereo receiver
    beyerdynamic DT-880 Premium (600 Ω) headphones
    SENNHEISER HD-555 headphones
    Little Dot MK IV tube headphone amp
    Little Dot DAC_I balanced D/A converter
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  • jrgoswick
    jrgoswick Posts: 159
    edited April 2010
    Taking the 12's to pops pad. To whomever asked-pops got the matching HK pre/power set(hell in a monkey suit to find that damned pre). I'll post later with results.
    Onkyo TX-SR705 AVR
    Onkyo M-501-Given to my father.
    Onkyo DX-C730 CD Changer
    Onkyo DV-BD507 Blu Ray player
    Onkyo CP-1036A turntable with Grado, Audio Technique, and Azden cartridges(GOT CARTRIDGE??)
    Polk Monitor 12's with RDO's and XO's
    Polk CS300 Center
    Polk Monitor Series 4 rears

    EBAY is like cocaine. At first you only look, next thing you know, your house is full of crap you have no idea why you own.:eek:
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  • jrgoswick
    jrgoswick Posts: 159
    edited April 2010
    OK-back home now. SAME THING.. HOWEVER I think placement is part of my problem(now pops don't sound the same after moving them-spike positions marked on the floor with masking tape). Next weekend he's bringing his to my pad to breath with a little more power. In the meantime I'm getting liquid nail for the cabinets, dynamat, and some spikes. Also thinking about adding some type of fill material to alter/dampen the reflected interior wave(any thoughts). Other suggestions are appreciated. Mine are a little closer to the wall now and it seems to have made a little difference. Also thinking that just un-wiring and re-wiring has made some difference. Anyone done this and noticed any change?
    Onkyo TX-SR705 AVR
    Onkyo M-501-Given to my father.
    Onkyo DX-C730 CD Changer
    Onkyo DV-BD507 Blu Ray player
    Onkyo CP-1036A turntable with Grado, Audio Technique, and Azden cartridges(GOT CARTRIDGE??)
    Polk Monitor 12's with RDO's and XO's
    Polk CS300 Center
    Polk Monitor Series 4 rears

    EBAY is like cocaine. At first you only look, next thing you know, your house is full of crap you have no idea why you own.:eek:
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited April 2010
    jrgoswick wrote: »
    OK-back home now. SAME THING.. HOWEVER I think placement is part of my problem(now pops don't sound the same after moving them-spike positions marked on the floor with masking tape). Next weekend he's bringing his to my pad to breath with a little more power. In the meantime I'm getting liquid nail for the cabinets, dynamat, and some spikes. Also thinking about adding some type of fill material to alter/dampen the reflected interior wave(any thoughts). Other suggestions are appreciated. Mine are a little closer to the wall now and it seems to have made a little difference. Also thinking that just un-wiring and re-wiring has made some difference. Anyone done this and noticed any change?

    http://www.speakercity.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SC&Product_Code=damping-bh5&Category_Code=damping
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