Why is the bass not as good as factory speakers?

Hi guys I'm new here.

I am a Auto Technician so I am very good at understanding some stuff BUT sound is not my specialty.

I just got a 1998 Civic as a project car for my kid and I. We are starting with the sound system. We are not going for crazy loud but we are going for quality and clear sound. First we got a Alpine head unit UTE-62BT this unit has 18 RMS x4 and it works great with the factory speakers but the highs were terrible. The next step were the speakers.

I got;

Polk DB+ DB6502 6-1/2" Component System for the front
Polk DB+ DB692 6" x 9" 3-way Speakers for the rear

I also got Speaker Baffles for the front and rear. I didn't make holes on them only for the wires.

I left the driver's speaker factory to compare (the only one not blown) and I noticed that the bass is WEAK on the Polk woofer on the right side compared to the factory left. I also noticed that the Polk woofer barely moves at max volume (before speaker distortion) while the factory speaker is going crazy. My guess is that the Polk woofer needs more power to be able to produce bass. I am not expecting to sound like a sub-woofer but at the very least BETTER that factory.

Don't get me wrong here I love how the highs sounds, its super clear!!

I'm sure I would need a Amplifier but I am not sure what amp rating I sound get. the description for the front says that it handles up to 100 watts RMS for the front and 150 watts RMS for the rear. Is that per speaker? or combine?

What amp do I need?
100 RMS x4 4 channel amp?
150 RMS x4 4 channel amp?
50 RMS x4 4 channel amp?
75 RMS x4 4 channel amp?



Thank you

I have some pics of the front install.
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Comments

  • stangman67stangman67 Posts: 773
    My response from the other thread for reference.

    Nice looking install. This post may serve you better in the car audio sub forum. Even then most guys on here are Home audio gurus.

    I have background in car audio, the reason that the bass performance is not as good is

    a) HU power will never serve a good set of aftermarket speaker well.

    Factory speakers are designed to boost bass frequencies as there is no reasonable expectation that a subwoofer will ever be used, so the factory speakers have to "do it all". Aftermarket companies are focused on generally creating a more accurate speaker, IE one with a flat frequency curve. 6.5 inch drivers are not adept at creating bass frequencies and cannot dig down into the lower frequencies, so they are designed to create flat frequency response in the frequencies they can accurately reproduce. Aftermarket companies are expecting people that want loud bass will install a subwoofer. There are speakers that can create accurate midbass but will never bloat the bass like most factory speakers do

    Hope this helps,
    Zach
    2 Channel
    BlueSound Node 2 Streaming Tidal I Marantz SA8005 I Music Hall MMF7.3 I Lounge Audio LCR Mk III I Backert Labs Rhumba 1.1 I B&K Ref 200.2 I Focal Aria 926 I Wireworld Eclipse 7 IC's I Acoustic Zen Satori SC I Pangea AC14SE MkII/PS Audio AC-3 Power Cables

    Living Room HT
    Sony XBR65X930E I Marantz NR-1608 I Q Acoustics 2020i I Q Acoustics 3090c I FXI-A4's I DIY 15" Dayton SW

  • stangman67stangman67 Posts: 773
    100 watt RMSx4 will be plenty. I personally would only amp the front speakers and leave the rears on HU power, but that is personal preference. I would also advise to think about installing a simple sub stage if you really are looking for bass performance. A single 10" sealed will satisfy most
    2 Channel
    BlueSound Node 2 Streaming Tidal I Marantz SA8005 I Music Hall MMF7.3 I Lounge Audio LCR Mk III I Backert Labs Rhumba 1.1 I B&K Ref 200.2 I Focal Aria 926 I Wireworld Eclipse 7 IC's I Acoustic Zen Satori SC I Pangea AC14SE MkII/PS Audio AC-3 Power Cables

    Living Room HT
    Sony XBR65X930E I Marantz NR-1608 I Q Acoustics 2020i I Q Acoustics 3090c I FXI-A4's I DIY 15" Dayton SW

  • ngv1515ngv1515 Posts: 16
    You are correct, a 10” sub will be good. Now that I have a better idea, I will get the 4 channel amp and see how everything sounds before I install the sub. I’m also planning to put some sound deaden. I work on Audi’s and I’m used to see lots of sound deaden in doors and panels which keeps out road noise out of the car and helps sound quality but when I took this Civic’s Door panel out I laughed lol. I’ll probably post some pics here. The people at Crutchfield told me to open a 1” hole at the bottom of the speaker baffles to help with the bass but if I’m going to put a sub I don’t know if I should do that.
  • FestYboyFestYboy Posts: 2,440
    Chuck the "baffles", the Polks (as with most car audio speakers) are designed for infinite baffle install. Having the foam cups behind the speakers sucks up all the back wave energy.

    I'll agree with @stangman67 , concentrate on the front speakers for external amplification, and do research on you amp! If you have a model in mind, look it up on YouTube to see how it stacks up against a dyno. I like "big D-wiz's" channel. He pulls no punches. If you're after sound damping, start in the rear and work forward.
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 3,774
    Removing the rubbers and going with a 50-75w x4 or even just a 50x2 for the fronts only will go a long way toward improving their performance. There's a huge difference in 18w/channel coming from a head unit, and 50w of clean power coming from a dedicated A/B amp.
    Got Dayens?
  • ngv1515ngv1515 Posts: 16
    I will cut out the baffles and check out the YouTube channel.
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 3,774
    @nbrowser I get that the foam/rubber baffle is to protect the back of the woofer from water exposure that it'll see in the area inbetween the door. It seems like this is at the expense of dynamics and low frequency response though, due to it stifling the ability for the woofer to move air around as it normally would.

    Is there another way to protect the backside of the woofer from the elements, while at the same time not affecting it's acoustic performance?
    Got Dayens?
  • ngv1515ngv1515 Posts: 16
    Ok... I cut some of the foam. I left some of the top to protected from water since the Water seals are old and don’t work that well.

    The result is outstanding!!! Now the speaker moves like it should. The mids and lows are good. Whole door rattles now LOL
  • ngv1515ngv1515 Posts: 16
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  • stangman67stangman67 Posts: 773
    If you really want to improve the sound, seal the door. This creates finite space to act as the enclosure. I did this to a 95 so if I had in college with a bunch of deadened and the results were fantastic
    2 Channel
    BlueSound Node 2 Streaming Tidal I Marantz SA8005 I Music Hall MMF7.3 I Lounge Audio LCR Mk III I Backert Labs Rhumba 1.1 I B&K Ref 200.2 I Focal Aria 926 I Wireworld Eclipse 7 IC's I Acoustic Zen Satori SC I Pangea AC14SE MkII/PS Audio AC-3 Power Cables

    Living Room HT
    Sony XBR65X930E I Marantz NR-1608 I Q Acoustics 2020i I Q Acoustics 3090c I FXI-A4's I DIY 15" Dayton SW

  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 3,774
    Even in newer cars, water gets inbetween the seal at the bottom of the window and drips down into the door cavity.
    nbrowser wrote: »
    If the seals on the door are working correctly, you shouldn't have issues with water hitting the back of the woofer.

    Got Dayens?
  • From my understanding the rms has always been per speaker. I have always used an amp that put out more rms the speaker's rating. Better to have more power than needed then needing the power and not have it.
    Epson 3020 projector. Da Lite screen. Oppo 103. Yamaha CXA5000. B&K 7250ii. HSU VTF2. Def Tech Supercube 4000. Polk Rtia9 CsiA6 FxiA6. Monster hts 2600. Home theater.

    Bedroom consist of NHT model 2 powered by Parasound hca1200ii coming from my computer.

    Stuff laying around. Too much to list but don't want to sell either.
  • verbverb Posts: 2,684
    Clipdat wrote: »
    Even in newer cars, water gets inbetween the seal at the bottom of the window and drips down into the door cavity.
    nbrowser wrote: »
    If the seals on the door are working correctly, you shouldn't have issues with water hitting the back of the woofer.

    @Clipdat is correct. It's actually a water barrier, not a seal. All doors leak some water at times. The barriers are designed to manage the water and keep it away from critical components originally designed for the car, not new ones added later.
    Basement: Polk SDA 1C's, Micro Seiki MB14 TT, Rotel 1580 Pre, Marantz CD6006 CDP, Carver TX8 Tuner, Conrad Johnson MF2300A Amp, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, AQ Diamondback (version 1) RCA IC's, MIT Terminator2 Cables
    Office: PC, Marantz AMP-1, Acoustic Technologies Classic Speakers, Polk PSWi225 wireless sub, MIT AVt2 cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable
    Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated, Auris BluMe, Polk TSi200's
    Living Room: Pioneer SX-N30 Network Receiver, Pioneer PD10AE CD Player, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi Subwoofer
  • ngv1515ngv1515 Posts: 16
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  • ngv1515ngv1515 Posts: 16
    From my understanding the rms has always been per speaker. I have always used an amp that put out more rms the speaker's rating. Better to have more power than needed then needing the power and not have it.

    I agree with you but this car doesn’t have a lot of space and all 4x100 rms amps are big. I’m thinking of putting 4 channel amp under pass seat and one mono amp under driver’s seat and I still don’t know where to put the power cap yet. 1pvkqgafolrq.jpeg
  • DSkipDSkip Posts: 14,555
    Don't get a cap. It's a waste.
    audiothesis.com/

    Speakers: Harbeth: 30.2, SHL5+; Usher: Be-10, T-515; Rosso Fiorentino: Elba, Pienza, Certaldo, Fiesole, Volterra; Polk: T50, Signature S15, RTA 15tl, RTi12; Sonner Audio Allegro Unum, Legato Unum, Legato Semis, Legato Duo; Emerald Physics CS-2.8; Klipsch KLF-20
    Preamps: Shuguang S200MK, Dayens Ampino, Parasound P5
    Amps: Shuguang S845MK, Dayens Ampino Monoblocks, Parasound A23
    Integrateds: Triode Corporation TRV-88SER, MastersounD: BoX, Dueventi, Compact 845, Evolution 845; North Star Design Blue Diamond
    Sources: AURALiC Aries, Denon HEOS Link, North Star Design: Magnifico, Supremo, Incanto, Intenso, Venti
    Cabling: Wireworld
    TV: Sony XBR-75X940C
  • ngv1515ngv1515 Posts: 16
    DSkip wrote: »
    Don't get a cap. It's a waste.

    Really? I put one in my car when I was in high school many moons ago and it worked. Before cap i had strobe headlights lol
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 3,774
    I've never used one, but I think the thought is that the battery is already a big capacitor. So if the battery/charging system isn't up to snuff, then adding a capacitor on top of that isn't going to help.

    I think the old suggestion used to be put money toward "the big three", instead of just adding a cap. The big three being Battery, Alternator, and bigger/better grounding cables.

    https://www.crutchfield.com/S-m1taXotSLvm/learn/learningcenter/car/stereo_power_ups.html
    ngv1515 wrote: »
    Really? I put one in my car when I was in high school many moons ago and it worked. Before cap i had strobe headlights lol

    Got Dayens?
  • ngv1515ngv1515 Posts: 16
    Clipdat wrote: »
    I've never used one, but I think the thought is that the battery is already a big capacitor. So if the battery/charging system isn't up to snuff, then adding a capacitor on top of that isn't going to help.

    I think the old suggestion used to be put money toward "the big three", instead of just adding a cap. The big three being Battery, Alternator, and bigger/better grounding cables.

    Yes you guys are right. I can’t do the alternator yet because car will get a engine swap, I’ll have to wait. Battery is in the list, Optima, along with wires. I want to take interior apart ONCE. Sound deaden, wiring, amp install, etc. I’ll wait on the power cap, it may not need it.
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 3,774
    h22a swap?
    Got Dayens?
  • FestYboyFestYboy Posts: 2,440
    J35.... Go big or don't bother
  • NightfallNightfall Posts: 7,491
    K series swap and turbo.
    afterburnt wrote: »
    They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.
  • DSkipDSkip Posts: 14,555
    What about L M N O P?
    audiothesis.com/

    Speakers: Harbeth: 30.2, SHL5+; Usher: Be-10, T-515; Rosso Fiorentino: Elba, Pienza, Certaldo, Fiesole, Volterra; Polk: T50, Signature S15, RTA 15tl, RTi12; Sonner Audio Allegro Unum, Legato Unum, Legato Semis, Legato Duo; Emerald Physics CS-2.8; Klipsch KLF-20
    Preamps: Shuguang S200MK, Dayens Ampino, Parasound P5
    Amps: Shuguang S845MK, Dayens Ampino Monoblocks, Parasound A23
    Integrateds: Triode Corporation TRV-88SER, MastersounD: BoX, Dueventi, Compact 845, Evolution 845; North Star Design Blue Diamond
    Sources: AURALiC Aries, Denon HEOS Link, North Star Design: Magnifico, Supremo, Incanto, Intenso, Venti
    Cabling: Wireworld
    TV: Sony XBR-75X940C
  • ngv1515ngv1515 Posts: 16
    Lol no need for over kill. B20B is the plan. Just enough to keep up with traffic.
  • ngv1515ngv1515 Posts: 16
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  • ngv1515ngv1515 Posts: 16
    Told my friends about the project and one gave me an amp and another one a box with 2 12”s the amp was on the floor in my friends garage... hasn’t been used for years and box was sitting in the attic for years too. They’re not high quality but it would do the job.

    Notice some difference after putting sound deadening on the right rear. I can hear the right rear speaker better but I ran out of it so I’ll add more later.
  • ngv1515ngv1515 Posts: 16
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  • FestYboyFestYboy Posts: 2,440
    Thank your friend for the box and 12s, that's a nice gesture, but if I were in your shoes, I'd use just one in a better box, or trade it off for an 8 or 10 in a transmission line configuration. 2 12s will be too much for the cabin size.
  • ngv1515ngv1515 Posts: 16
    FestYboy wrote: »
    Thank your friend for the box and 12s, that's a nice gesture, but if I were in your shoes, I'd use just one in a better box, or trade it off for an 8 or 10 in a transmission line configuration. 2 12s will be too much for the cabin size.

    Yeah, it is a little loud but at the same time not very clear and takes up 80% of the trunk space. I just lower the Sub volume from the radio. The subwoofer brand is “Vision” never heard of it and it looks old. I’ll take a picture of it soon.
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