Multiple LP Plays in a Row - Damage is Possible

Nightfall

So @dromunds sent me a few tubes to test out and to do that I was playing a record I happened to get in the mail on the same day. I played side A through, shut down my preamp, waited 5 minutes for the tubes to shut down, swapped the tube in question, fired it back up, and played side A again. I did this about 5-6 times and now the brand new record sounds like garbage. I know some people say it's just a wives tale but whatever you think I'm telling you it's possible. Maybe it depends on your stylus, VTF, the composition of the LP in question, of course there's variables and I'm sure there's a set of variables where you can play the LP many times in a row and suffer no damage but be careful. I learned my lesson. When I finally finished testing the tubes and pulled the record off I could feel that it was actually warm. I brought it up to my cheek and it was indeed quite warm. That's what I get for believing it was just an old wives tale or just some people being way too cautious.

For the record, this was a white record. I don't know if color is one of the variables, it's just a pigment, but I'll be buying a black record to replace it.

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/wait-24-hours-before-playing-a-record-twice.338598/

I don't know if I can, in good conscience, sell this record to anyone or my local record store now. I don't think I can bring myself to just throw it away either.

mhardy6647

That shouldn't be the case -- it's fair to say that the "let vinyl rest 24 hours" was controversial then and still is now. Indeed, I think the notion had far more traction in the 1970s than it does today.

If nothing else, wait 'til tomorrow & give the album a spin again.

My guess is that if 'five or six' repeated plays leaves it 'sounding like garbage' you've got something pretty seriously amiss with either the VTF or alignment.

What kind of stylus (i.e., what stylus profile) are you using? I think it's fair to say that a conical is far more forgiving of misalignment than even an elliptical, and the "hyper" stylus geometries (van den Hul, Shibata, hyperelliptical, line contact, etc. , etc., etc.) are all that much more intolerant of misalignment of any kind than either of the previously mentioned geometries.

CAUTION: My next statement is also related to another "old wives' tale" about records: I won't go into the whole "pressure = force per unit area" thing, but suffice it to say that vinyl plastic is very soft and diamond is very, very hard. The opportunity for damage is -- significant if the tracking parameters of the diamond stylus in the plastic groove aren't just so.

White vinyl should be as rugged as black (or clear, for that matter), assuming it is good quality (i.e., virgin) vinyl and was pressed with even a modicum of care. That latter point, admittedly, is something of a crapshoot nowadays.

white vinyl by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
(not a new white vinyl rekkid )

I guess when I am doing what you were doing, I would usually only play the same cut two or three times in quick succession. Not for any reason other than that's about as many variables as I'd change in one session (I am pretty lazy).

mhardy6647

Urp, I actually took the time to look at your configuration

The PX-3 has a servo linear arm, ain't it? I am guessing that your observation may indicate some issues with the arm's "management"

There's a lot to go wrong with an arm like that.

Nightfall

If there were problems with the arm wouldn't all of my records sound bad by this point? I think the Dynavector is a shiabata or line contact stylus. Alignment on the PX-3 is fairly trivial, I'm sure it's on point.

The record was literally warm. The high frequencies are gone but they fade in and out at points.

I appreciate your view and maybe the certain variables that would end with this result are rare but I feel fairly confident it's because I played it multiple times in a row. At any rate, better safe than sorry no?

mhardy6647

Nightfall wrote: »

... At any rate, better safe than sorry no?

I definitely agree with that!

Would your old records show the problem if it weren't the "overheated vinyl" effect? Well, sure, if they've been played "five or six" times by the arm/cartridge/stylus system in its current state.

I guess the counter-point I'd offer is that you may have something going wrong with the arm's drive system (or your stylus) -- and the poor album that's just been borked may be a canary in the coal mine.

It's testable. Pick a record, and play it, once a day, for six days -- and ensure it survives.

I would also give the bad-sounding record a rest and a replay in a day or two.

One other diagnostic thought: Do you have a test record (e.g., the old Shure test record) -- that hasn't been mistracked? If so, you might want to give it a spin & see how it performs.

I'm not being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative (even though that is definitely part of my nature! ) -- I am trying to make sure you don't have a different problem than the one you're diagnosing.

Bottom line -- you may well be right about the root cause... but if not, all of your records are conceivably at risk.

Just a cheery thought.

pitdogg2

Agree can't see it being the album to be honest. Something more is going on here.

mhardy6647

It is a linear tracking arm. The arc angle per se is kind of N/A unless something's really outta whack.

I am wondering if all is well in the servo drive system --- I guess the Occam's Razor philosophical principle, though, would lead one to muse "check the stylus"

Nightfall

Tonight will be 24 hours I'll listen again. I'll try swapping in a Denon DL-110 too.

Nightfall

I should think about getting a test record.

mikeyb128

Interesting subject. I just so happen to have been testing some new tubes the other night, and listened to my test track about 10 times. Still sounds good, no problems here.

Nightfall

Isn't it possible that it could only happen with a record that's made of certain materials in certain percentages or are all records made from the same substances?

Nightfall

Or perhaps being pressed incorrectly, not enough cooling time or pressed at incorrect temperatures? Just thinking out loud.

mhardy6647

I would opine, with characteristic humility:
yes, and yes, respectively

The fact that it is a "new album" (i.e., a modern pressing) gives me pause. The fact it is on white vinyl, conversely, does not.

Nightfall

I didn't think the color mattered either, just trying to be thorough.

mhardy6647

So. Pure vinyl plastic is clear. Any record that's not (heh) crystal clear has a coloring agent added to it. The old story from the somewhat ironically named Crystal Clear Records on white vs. black vinyl was that the latter was traditionally colored with graphitic materials (lampblack?!) that raised the noise floor of traditional black vinyl records. Crystal Clear sold their direct to disk records pressed in white vinyl, said to be quieter. They also sold 'em pressed in black vinyl -- I honestly don't remember if they were cheaper or later pressings, or what, though.

The photo I posted earlier, by the way was Charlie Byrd's eponymous direct to disk 45 rpm 12" album on white vinyl recorded & released by Crystal Clear ca. 1977 (give or take). It's an absolutely superb sounding album.

Oh, another Cliff Clavin moment on black vinyl. In the 1960s - or early 1970s - JVC (Japan Victor Corp.) developed a "compatible, discrete four channel" multiplex LP record technology (CD-4) that permitted four channels of audio information (quad, baby!) to be encoded in a standard vertically/horizontally modulated record groove. The CD-4 system uses an ultrasonic pilot signal to permit decoding of the muliplexed quad signal(s). This required phono cartridges/styli with fairly linear response out to ca. 50 kHz (!) and a very low noise background. JVC also developed a special vinyl formulation (which they called "Supervinyl") as a medium for pressing these CD-4 records.

Well, quad -- wasn't a big success, but a few years later, Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs started pressing and selling carefully made (half-speed mastered) LP records. They, at least in the early days of the half-speed mastered "Original Master Recordings" had their records pressed using JVC's Supervinyl.

NOW, the reason I told you all of this was to mention the most interesting thing about JVC Supervinyl. The records pressed with Supervinyl look like regular old black LPs, but holding one up to strong light reveals that the record is actually a very dark but translucent brownish-black color. Sort of like root beer (if memory serves).

I am going to pull out an ol' Supervinyl disk & double-check this anon.

mikeyb128

The LP I was using was the new/remastered copy of division bell. It sounds really good.

Dennis Gardner

I've never heard of random album damage happening. Radio stations played certain cuts multiple times per hour or day without causing damage.

LP albums with light tracking forces shouldn't ever cause heat buildup. 78s would be way worse.

I would swap out the cartridge and check the album again. Who knows, stranger things have happened I guess?

I read an article earlier this week that claimed measurable differences in an album took over 1000 trackings to occur. I wish I would have saved the source.

nooshinjohn

The tracking force is likely off and may be running too heavy. I would check that first. The Dynavector should track at 1.8 grams

Nightfall

I have it at 1.9g

nooshinjohn

Check it on a tracing force scale...

Nightfall

How is that possible? You can't lower the arm on this table without having the platter spin.

Nightfall

I bet I could play a different record 20 times in a row after work tonight without issue which would eliminate a setup issue and would mean it's just that particular record and it's composition.

vmaxer

mikeyb128 wrote: »

The LP I was using was the new/remastered copy of division bell. It sounds really good.

"Sounded really good "

mhardy6647

Maybe it's not.
Just looked through the service manual from vinylengine and there's no clue of a 'defeat' mode to independently assess VTF.

There is a fairly terrifying slide deck PDF @ vinylengine on cleaning and tensioning the drive belts on the arm
https://www.vinylengine.com/ve_downloads/index.php?yamaha/yamaha_px-3_transport_belt_adjustment_rev_a.pdf

Did someone rehab yours before you got it, or have you had it since it was new?


There's also this thread on some adjustments somebody made on one:
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=46477

On the bright side, there doesn't seem to be a pervasive tracking issue with these arms/tables (even at this late date). Looks like most of the old-age issues manifest themselves as not totally reliable "seeking" (transiting the arm across a disc to choose a track to play) or in audible LF "thumps" as the servo mechanism operates. The was a mention of zeroing the arm to be "tricky", though.

nooshinjohn

It was my table before I got the TriangleART. I used it for nearly seven years without any issues. Prior to that it was new in the box, having belonged to an F-15 pilot you shipped it home from Kadena and never opened it. I know anything can happen on a table of this vintage, but I would have a difficult time believing it could be something beyond a setup issue, or a crappy record. Zeroing the arm is done by moving the arm manually away from the rest position and then powering the table off without returning the arm.

Nightfall

I agree, also I would bet money the VTF is not exactly 1.9 but fairly close and the cart is square and stylus dead even with the center of the spindle.

stones89

Nightfall wrote: »

I should think about getting a test record.

A necessity for sure.

Nightfall wrote: »

I agree, also I would bet money the VTF is not exactly 1.9 but fairly close and the cart is square and stylus dead even with the center of the spindle.

i do believe damage can be done playing the same track over and over.

BlueFox

Every time you play a record it suffers microscopic damage. Maybe this record was on the verge of its end of quality life. Did you try putting it aside, and then play it later to hear if the damage was still there? Maybe you are over analyzing it.

lightman1

Colorado.....me thinks J-man is trippinbalz from the legal use of the kind. A theory proposed for your consideration.

BlueFox

Self induced stereo damage psychosis. Common ailment.