Raising sub woofer level.....

treitz3treitz3 Posts: 12,206
No, I'm not talking about the volume. I'm talking about raising the actual height of the sub itself to where the woofer is at or near the same height as the listening level.

I know subs are supposed to be non-directional and I know for probably 98%+ [from experience] of the sub users out there, that's a load of horse dung. While I haven't hooked up the SMS-1 to the [new to me] Tyler subs, I was listening and thinking today that it would probably sound better if the subs were raised to the point that is at or near ear level. Making an improvement in sound and feel at this point couldn't hurt, right?

I could be full of the horse dung, but it makes sense to me right now. I can tell exactly where the sub is.....right below the sound stage. Don't get me wrong, I know what I need to do with the gear I have. I have achieved near spot on sonic perfection that didn't have the right to sound as good as it did, I'm just pondering if [before] I do the same thing again.....would it help to raise the level of the sub to the tweeter level [height wise]?

I'm thinking that since I have a front firing woofer(s), the sound pressure that hits my chest will arrive at the same time [in theory]. In other words, instead of a millisecond delay of the mains thumping my chest, followed by the sub [which by measurement is lower, therefore further away]....wouldn't it make more sense to have all of the drivers as close to the listening level [height] as possible and equidistant apart?

In theory, all the lower register sound waves will hit at the same time to your body and ears even though the sound waves vary with frequencies. In other words it should [again in theory] be tighter, more accurate and engaging.

Has anybody ever tried it? Thoughts about the theory?
In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.
Post edited by treitz3 on
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Comments

  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited December 2010
    It is horse dung. I like front firing, with front or bottom port/passive radiator, or none at all. I've always run into issues with rear ported subs getting them 'just right' for music.

    In my modest home theater, I did just that. I had two large amplifier stands that were collecting dust. I put my PSW125's on top of them and it made an instant difference. Now, I think it's two fold, because they are bottom ported, and the port is now interacting with a flat surface vs carpet - but it seems a lot more tuneful, and I lost some of the nodes I was experiencing walking around the room.

    They are maybe 5 inches off the ground now, and my RT7's are on top of each, with vibrapods in between, and lead shot on top. Yes, I just run stereo in HT, dual PSW125's with RT7's. I may add a wireless f/x once they hit the stores to check it out.

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • treitz3treitz3 Posts: 12,206
    edited December 2010
    I'd like to give it a whirl, just for the hell of it. What have I got to lose?

    I'm experiencing a major brain **** as to what to set them on top of though. They weigh in at about 120lbs or so a pop and since I have a 1 year old running around, they have to be stable enough to support such weight. Then there is the fact that whatever they sit on must have some type of acoustical affect that will change the outcome. In other words, a hollow box may resonate and possibly make more boom at the bottom which I can't stand. Milk crates [temporarily] would put the drivers too low or too high and right now I can't think of anything else.

    Anybody got any ideas? Lookin' for about a foot and 3/4 rise.....
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.
  • FaceFace Posts: 14,712
    edited December 2010
    The biggest issue with sub placement is room nodes, not specifically the height of the driver in relation to you or your mains.

    http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Technologyleadership/Documents/Scientific%20Publications/13680.pdf

    If you feel that there is a delay issue, that's something else altogether. Why not try the SMS-1 already?

    And for some nice sub stands: http://www.soundanchors.com/
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
  • thsmiththsmith Posts: 6,080
    edited December 2010
    subdude will raise it an inch or 2.
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
  • treitz3treitz3 Posts: 12,206
    edited December 2010
    Face wrote: »
    Why not try the SMS-1 already?
    Well, right now I have stereo subs and only one SMS-1. That said, I will either have to go mono or purchase another SMS-1.

    I was just wondering last night a "what if" scenario. I know that with the VMPS and the SMS-1, the sub completely disappeared. There was no way that anybody could tell where it was, loud or soft. Without the SMS-1 and with the new subs, I can tell that the subs are at a lower point on the sound stage than the rest of the music. I am in no hurry whatsoever. It already sounds fantastic and without doing any measurements, I do not believe that I have any annoying room nodes or spikes.

    I'm kinda thinking that if I can perfect things as much as I can before reintroducing the SMS-1, the end result will be nothing short of incredible. BTW Face, that one stand [1st set of pic's, top R hand side] looks like it would be right up my alley if this little experiment works out to the good.
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.
  • FaceFace Posts: 14,712
    edited December 2010
    If I'm not mistaken, but isn't most mixing under 80hz done in mono anyway, making stereo subs redundant?
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
  • treitz3treitz3 Posts: 12,206
    edited December 2010
    Hmmm, damn good question. I had never thought about that. Gonna have to find that out.
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.
  • Ern DogErn Dog Posts: 2,239
    edited December 2010
    I thought the SMS-1 allows up to 3 subs.

    Me, I'd start in the other direction first and maximize the subs performance with placement then using the sms to dial it in. Lastly, I would experiment with the height.
  • treitz3treitz3 Posts: 12,206
    edited December 2010
    Hello Ern Dog! You are correct in that the SMS-1 does do up to 3 subs without splitting any output signals. However, all subs will be adjusted together and not independently and they would also all be in mono. The location of the subs have already been solidified. The height is the only thing I'm pondering and I guess you could say that I am considering the height of the subs as part of the location, if you will.

    Face, from what I have read up on since your last post is that while it used to be true for the most part, things have changed. Apparently, back in the days when vinyl was king, this was a common practice. It used to have something to do with the needle jumping out of the groove, from what I have read so far. Not so much anymore with the digital formats. They can pretty much place it where they want it.

    There's another thing. With the TV and new Blu-Ray player being reintroduced into the rig, I have really enjoyed having the subs in stereo....think the scene in the movie "Wyatt Earp" where in the middle of a big field, a train goes from the L side of the screen to the R side of the screen. While watching that scene, you'd swear that the train just passed through my living room. That effect would be severely compromised if both subs were back in mono.

    That has been my only complaint that I have had with the SMS-1, is that it doesn't do it in stereo. You have to go purchase another unit. Grrrr.
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.
  • FaceFace Posts: 14,712
    edited December 2010
    treitz3 wrote: »
    There's another thing. With the TV and new Blu-Ray player being reintroduced into the rig, I have really enjoyed having the subs in stereo....think the scene in the movie "Wyatt Earp" where in the middle of a big field, a train goes from the L side of the screen to the R side of the screen. While watching that scene, you'd swear that the train just passed through my living room. That effect would be severely compromised if both subs were back in mono.
    Do you have your subs hooked up to your mains or LFE? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're running your mains on full range but have LFE disabled, your player is downmixing the audio track and you're not taking advantage of the BD high res audio tracks.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
  • treitz3treitz3 Posts: 12,206
    edited December 2010
    I have dual outputs on the Dodd Audio pre. One set goes to the amp>mains. The other set [since one of my Anthem amps is down right now] currently has the L output going into the L sub, same with the R output. The LFE input on the subs are not used.
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.
  • thsmiththsmith Posts: 6,080
    edited December 2010
    What is the story on your Anthem ?

    Personally I found REW to be the best tool for sub placement and cutting the peaks. SInce the BFD is 2 channel you could independantly adjust each sub's filters.

    I did this with my HSUs when I had them and a friend of mine still does with his Outlaws.

    Since the PB13 has one on board filter and all is need is one to tame 30-40hz range that is all I use now but REW is what allowed me to figure out the settings required on the SVS.
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
  • treitz3treitz3 Posts: 12,206
    edited December 2010
    Hello thsmith! Not familiar with REW at all. Is it another unit or computer based?

    The Anthem most likely fried a variable resistor or a bias resistor. I have the schem's you sent me but I have yet to find the time to dive into it. With the rig sounding great as it is, I'm not really pressured to get it back up and running at this moment in time.
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.
  • thsmiththsmith Posts: 6,080
    edited December 2010
    Room EQ Wizard over at Hometheatershack.com

    COmputer based, requires an SC that can handle the inputs from SPL meter and output to PREAMP or what ever.

    It is free and a has a learning curve but for manual tuning I think it is the best unless you want something to auto do it for you.

    The BFD 1124 (I think is the model) can be bought at Guitar Center and is pretty slick. The unit has meters that are purdy if you are into that sort of thing. I think they can also be turned off.

    Very fleible setup and you will learn alot about sub placement and filtering.

    Hope you get the AMP 1 back up soon. My repair guy is doing some tweaks on mine since the Wright is in place.
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
  • newrivalnewrival Posts: 2,016
    edited December 2010
    Face wrote: »
    If I'm not mistaken, but isn't most mixing under 80hz done in mono anyway, making stereo subs redundant?

    stereo subs are not redundant if you run the the respective channels to the sub first then to the mains, thereby utilizing the subwoofer's x-over.

    Using this scenario in an HT setup should utilize at least a third sub for LFE run from the LFE or sub pre-out on the AVR.
    design is where science and art break even.
  • treitz3treitz3 Posts: 12,206
    edited December 2010
    Hello newrival. There is no LFE on my rig. It is a 2-channel only rig that just so happens to be connected to the TV/BRP. The subs will not be utilizing the crossover as that is the job for the SMS-1, which is basically an active crossover for both the mains and the subs together. At least for the lower frequencies, that is.

    Tracy, I don't know if that will work for me. Part of the magic of the SMS-1 is that it blends both the mains and the sub together as one. Then, it takes both of them and blends the entire rig to the room. I'll still look at it but I already know what the SMS-1 is capable of and I am twitterpated with the end result.

    Anyhoo, we seem to have gotten off track here. Where I'm at right now is I'm trying to think of something that will raise the height of 2-120lb subs off the floor about a foot and 3/4 for an experiment I want to try.

    Does anybody have an idea of what I can temporarily use for this experiment?
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.
  • Erik TracyErik Tracy Posts: 4,691
    edited December 2010
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Hello newrival. There is no LFE on my rig. It is a 2-channel only rig that just so happens to be connected to the TV/BRP. The subs will not be utilizing the crossover as that is the job for the SMS-1, which is basically an active crossover for both the mains and the subs together. At least for the lower frequencies, that is.

    Tracy, I don't know if that will work for me. Part of the magic of the SMS-1 is that it blends both the mains and the sub together as one. Then, it takes both of them and blends the entire rig to the room. I'll still look at it but I already know what the SMS-1 is capable of and I am twitterpated with the end result.

    Anyhoo, we seem to have gotten off track here. Where I'm at right now is I'm trying to think of something that will raise the height of 2-120lb subs off the floor about a foot and 3/4 for an experiment I want to try.

    Does anybody have an idea of what I can temporarily use for this experiment?

    Got any milk crates stashed away someplace? Every guy has some of those someplace:tongue:

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.
  • EndersShadowEndersShadow Posts: 14,815
    edited December 2010
    Maybe go buy some cinder blocks at loews or something...those should carry the load with no problem...

    Like in college when you had a cinder block w/ 2x4 entertainment center lol....
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
  • treitz3treitz3 Posts: 12,206
    edited December 2010
    Bingo! I could kick myself for not thinking of that. DOH!

    Thank you, that should work fine for this.
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.
  • AudioGenicsAudioGenics Posts: 2,586
    edited December 2010
    editing your statement
    "..... the sound pressure that hits my chest ....thumping my chest..."

    just mentioning.

    Tactile Transducers
  • greyford1979greyford1979 Posts: 763
    edited December 2010
    Maybe go buy some cinder blocks at loews or something...those should carry the load with no problem...

    Like in college when you had a cinder block w/ 2x4 entertainment center lol....

    If you go this route, I've seen some guys that have painted the blocks or draped them with fabric to make them look better and match the room decor:biggrin:
    I love animals, they're delicious!
  • treitz3treitz3 Posts: 12,206
    edited December 2010
    Eh, this is just a temporary gig to see if my theory works out or not. Trust me, this will not be permanent.

    AudioGenics, I'm still trying to decipher your post but I will look into tactile transducers in the meantime. Not really familiar with those either. Thanks.
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.
  • EndersShadowEndersShadow Posts: 14,815
    edited December 2010
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Eh, this is just a temporary gig to see if my theory works out or not. Trust me, this will not be permanent.

    AudioGenics, I'm still trying to decipher your post but I will look into tactile transducers in the meantime. Not really familiar with those either. Thanks.

    I think he's referencing something like buttkickers that move the furniture your sitting on so you "feel" the bass as well as hear it...Most use them in addition to a regular sub
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
  • treitz3treitz3 Posts: 12,206
    edited December 2010
    Um, no thanks. I just looked up tactile transducers...here's what it said...

    "A bass-shaker is meant to be firmly attached to some surface such as a seat, couch or floor."


    I have absolutely no issue with feeling the bass at all. That's not the issue. Really, there is no issue, I'm just anal when it comes to music and its reproduction. Right now as of this very moment, the lower registers are at a "lower height" than the rest of the sound stage. It doesn't represent an accurate reproduction of the actual sound stage. I'd like to improve on that before I go and do what I have done in the past to make the sub disappear. There has got to be some benefit [in theory] to doing so....or at least that's where my mindset is at right now.

    Besides, like I said, what have I got to lose? I go and buy 16 cinder blocks. I listen. I either approve or disapprove of the end result. If I don't like it? I return the cinder blocks. No harm, no foul. I'm just curious.
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.
  • AudioGenicsAudioGenics Posts: 2,586
    edited December 2010
    sorry about the tactile transducers.
  • treitz3treitz3 Posts: 12,206
    edited December 2010
    It's all good. I appreciate any and all input. :wink:
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 21,818
    edited December 2010
    Tom

    You are crazy.

    Im going to kick you in the shins in the morning you lil ****.

    Hugs and kisses
    Vr3Mods.com ///// Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • Ern DogErn Dog Posts: 2,239
    edited December 2010
    Tom-

    I stumbled across this thread about raising the sub.

    http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=82775.0
  • EndersShadowEndersShadow Posts: 14,815
    edited December 2010
    Ern Dog wrote: »
    Tom-

    I stumbled across this thread about raising the sub.

    http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=82775.0

    That was definitely an interesting read.....gave me some ideas to try when the wife is @ work :biggrin:

    Now to find a way to have my Dad sneak in some cinder blocks (since I can't lift anything that heavy yet) when the wife isnt looking.....
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
  • treitz3treitz3 Posts: 12,206
    edited December 2010
    Thanks Ern Dog. I will most likely go to Home Depot today and purchase some cinder blocks and try it out. It will be interesting to me to find out whether the end result has any attributes.
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.
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