Question about my breaker panel for adding a dedicated line

tcrossma · January 2009

I want to add a new dedicated outlet or two for my system, so I popped off the cover to the breaker panel to see what was available in there.

At the top of the right leg is the 100amp "main" breaker. Directly across from that on the left leg is two empty spaces. The rest of the panel is full.

Can I use those two empty spaces? It just seemed odd to me that they weren't already being used and given that they are directly across from the main breaker at the top I figured maybe they couldn't be used for some reason?

Anybody know? I could take a picture if necessary.

Thanks.

mmadden28 · January 2009

A pic would be good.
You can also replace an existing breaker with a double slim (not sure what they're called) but it puts two breakers in the same space as one.

mmadden28 · January 2009

Like this-replace one of these

with one of these (two poles but they're not tied together like in a 220V dbl pole breaker)

Of course you would only use like brands and the proper replacement for your panel (those are the only images I could quickly find.
You'll also need to ensure that you're panel isn't already maxed out (i.e. talk to an electrician)

tcrossma · January 2009

Thanks, I'll try and post a picture later. I'd like to just use the open slots if possible.

TNRabbit · January 2009

This all depends on how many amps you are currently running on the entire panel. "just because there are checks in the checkbook doesn't mean there is money in the bank account"....hehehe

tcrossma · January 2009

TNRabbit wrote: »

This all depends on how many amps you are currently running on the entire panel. "just because there are checks in the checkbook doesn't mean there is money in the bank account"....hehehe

Yeah, but just because the speedometer in my car goes to 125 doesn't mean I'll get a ticket for going 25 either.

Of course if I add up all breakers the total far exceeds 100 amps, but I don't think my normal house draw exceeds the limit. Nor have I ever tripped the main breaker. And I've been running my audio gear on the exist lines and haven't even tripped the breaker it's currently on. I'll not really be adding any additional load to my house, I just want to ensure good, clean power to my equipment.

unc2701 · January 2009

Sounds like it might be a subpanel-type setup. Is there an outside breaker at the box w/ some breakers for things like AC and the stove?

Anyhow, put up a pic, but you're probably fine. As for the breaker values exceeding the main value, that's not a problem.

BlueFox · January 2009

tcrossma wrote: »

I want to add a new dedicated outlet or two for my system, so I popped off the cover to the breaker panel to see what was available in there.

At the top of the right leg is the 100amp "main" breaker. Directly across from that on the left leg is two empty spaces. The rest of the panel is full.

Another option is upgrading to a 200amp panel. I did that over the summer, and it really stabilzed the power. Now the voltmeter on the power conditioner stays at a solid 124 volts, while before it would fluctuate. Other obvious improvements are the kitchen lights do not slightly dim when the coffee pot heater kicks on.

With the upgrade, and the half-size breakers, there is more than enough room to add seperate circuits for every wall outlet in the house. Like you, at some point I would like to add a dedicated line for the HT equipment, and a line for the living room system.

johnny42 · January 2009

Good idea replace an existing breaker with a slim line breaker or breakers. I would pop out a breaker and take it to HD or an electrical supply to match it up to your panel. As for the load your system is drawing off the panel now, adding a dedicated line, it's still drawing of the same panel. A dedicated line also means a dedicated neutral. Your system won't be mixed in with other stuff ( noise ) returning to the panel on the neutral.

gdb · January 2009

100amps is a very low amperage service for todays homes, is yours an old house? The norm nowadays is 200amps or more, if you've got two spaces in your panel, you should be able to install two separate 15 or 20amp breakers without having to use the more expensive "piggyback" type. While it's a bit of a pain in the a$$ to work with, I'd recommend using MC (metal clad) cable because the cladding provides a shield against radio frequencies etc. and is ground linked to the panel and connected ground rod. If you've got a lot of heavy draw appliances-AC,furnace,water heater,elect. stove or others, you might want to consider a "heavy up" and go to a 200amp service and panel, I prefer Cutler Hammer myself but Square D is good too as long as you don't get their cheapie Home Line stuff. BE CAREFUL and good luck!!:)

disneyjoe7 · January 2009

mmadden28 wrote: »

Like this-replace one of these

with one of these (two poles but they're not tied together like in a 220V dbl pole breaker)

Of course you would only use like brands and the proper replacement for your panel (those are the only images I could quickly find.
You'll also need to ensure that you're panel isn't already maxed out (i.e. talk to an electrician)

Caution of using double breakers like that above, breaker in which you are splitting one leg of AC. Using a breaker like this you need to run 2 wire runs 1 for each outlet. Using a 12/3 cable where you can share the neutral would overload the neutral as you have the same phase on each feed doubling the current on that wire. A quad breaker would be a better choice where you're replacing 2 single breaks with 1 quad double breaker this allows 2 phases on wiring splitting the neutral current. A breaker like this would allow the 12/3 wire to be used.

mmadden28 · January 2009

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Caution of using double breakers like that above, breaker in which you are splitting one leg of AC. Using a breaker like this you need to run 2 wire runs 1 for each outlet. Using a 12/3 cable where you can share the neutral would overload the neutral as you have the same phase on each feed doubling the current on that wire. A quad breaker would be a better choice where you're replacing 2 single breaks with 1 quad double breaker this allows 2 phases on wiring splitting the neutral current. A breaker like this would allow the 12/3 wire to be used.

Good point. DJ. I remember I was considering doing that-just using a slim dbl. Just don't put both of the hots of the 12/3 on the same dbl slim/phase breaker. Actualy, when I ran my 2 dedicated circuits with 10/3, I used a regular dbl pole breaker (usu for 220v) which put each circuit on separate legs. And in that case the neutral overload DJ mentioned above would not be an issue.
I used dbl slims in my setup to simply free up space on my panel (replacing other separate circuits) so I could fit the reg dbl pole somewhere. I did not use the dbl slims for my new dedicated circuits that were on the same 12/3 run.

tcrossma · January 2009

gdb wrote: »

100amps is a very low amperage service for todays homes, is yours an old house? The norm nowadays is 200amps or more, if you've got two spaces in your panel, you should be able to install two separate 15 or 20amp breakers without having to use the more expensive "piggyback" type. While it's a bit of a pain in the a$$ to work with, I'd recommend using MC (metal clad) cable because the cladding provides a shield against radio frequencies etc. and is ground linked to the panel and connected ground rod. If you've got a lot of heavy draw appliances-AC,furnace,water heater,elect. stove or others, you might want to consider a "heavy up" and go to a 200amp service and panel, I prefer Cutler Hammer myself but Square D is good too as long as you don't get their cheapie Home Line stuff. BE CAREFUL and good luck!!:)

House was built in '85. 100 amp service seems pretty common around here for some reason. I do have A/C, but we have a gas furnace, water heater, dryer and cooktop.

I would love 200 amp service just for the piece of mind, but I *think* 100 amp is adequate for the house.

Thanks for all the help guys. I still have to get that picture taken and uploaded to make sure those free spaces can be used, and I'll do that later today.

tcrossma · January 2009

Here's a couple pics of the panel. Main question is whether those two empty spots to the left of the main 100a breaker can be used. I think they can, but it just struck me as odd that they were left blank in the first place...

Thanks!

disneyjoe7 · January 2009

I take it that is a sub panel of a main panel. The main panel maybe where your meter is there properly a main breaker also over there. If not that panel isn't wired right IMHO. But I think those 2 open breakers are ok to use. A normal main panel should been using the large screws terminal for the feed, yours is feed like a breaker.

tcrossma · January 2009

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

I take it that is a sub panel of a main panel. The main panel maybe where your meter is there properly a main breaker also over there. If not that panel isn't wired right IMHO. But I think those 2 open breakers are ok to use. A normal main panel should been using the large screws terminal for the feed, yours is feed like a breaker.

This is my one and only main panel. Those 2 big wires coming into the 100amp breaker at the top are coming right in from the outside -- directly above this panel.

disneyjoe7 · January 2009

Ok I don't see a problem using those 2 open spaces, but if you're uncomfortable about those 2 spaces you could go with a quad breaker. Removing 2 breakers below the main 100 amp breaker to add a quad or 4 breakers there. The 2 20 amp breaker just below the main breaker that’s where you could add a quad 4 20 amp breaker. Doing it this way wire the 2 new 20's in the middle of the quad. Never the top 2 or the bottom 2 breakers using the same neutral. If metered the voltage to the outlets are 120vac but 240vac if messured by the 2 hot leads.

mmadden28 · January 2009

DJ, is that a quad 15 at the bottom right of his panel?

disneyjoe7 · January 2009

mmadden28 wrote: »

DJ, is that a quad 15 at the bottom right of his panel?

Yes it is, and I question the way its wired as it looks as the black and white is used for feeds so the neutral must be ground. But more important that the both blacks look like they are using the upper 2 where the lower white are using the lower 2. Not sure what this is powering but for sure you shouldn't do a 12/3 or 10/3 cable like that, where you need to outer 2 or the middle 2 for proper load on the neutral. As 2 20 amps draw would add to 40 amp on neutral if on the same phase, but cancel each other if on phase A and phase B*.

BTW I question now why they put a quad in where they seem to be able to add 2 singles next to the main breaker for less money. As quad breaker are a bit pricey, over doubles or single breakers. Perhaps you need to do a quad also.

* Not really phases I know but to clarify this message.

tcrossma · January 2009

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Yes it is, and I question the way its wired as it looks as the black and white is used for feeds so the neutral must be ground. But more important that the both blacks look like they are using the upper 2 where the lower white are using the lower 2. Not sure what this is powering but for sure you shouldn't do a 12/3 or 10/3 cable like that, where you need to outer 2 or the middle 2 for proper load on the neutral. As 2 20 amps draw would add to 40 amp on neutral if on the same phase, but cancel each other if on phase A and phase B*.

BTW I question now why they put a quad in where they seem to be able to add 2 singles next to the main breaker for less money. As quad breaker are a bit pricey, over doubles or single breakers. Perhaps you need to do a quad also.

* Not really phases I know but to clarify this message.

I believe this is for my central air system. It was installed maybe 10 years ago (well after the house was built). I bought the house a couple years ago, so none of this is my doing...

disneyjoe7 · January 2009

I didn't think you did it, but its the first time I seen a panel and questioned it.

I going to take a guess here the 50 double is for the compressor outside where one of those 15 double of quad is for the fan inside. The other 50 amp for a stove or clothes dryer, the 30 amp double for Hot Water?

tcrossma · January 2009

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

I didn't think you did it, but its the first time I seen a panel and questioned it.

I going to take a guess here the 50 double is for the compressor outside where one of those 15 double of quad is for the fan inside. The other 50 amp for a stove or clothes dryer, the 30 amp double for Hot Water?

We have:

- double wall oven
- built-in refrigerator
- central A/C
- gas water heater
- gas furnace
- gas dryer
- washing machine

These are the only big items that I can think of in the house.

disneyjoe7 · January 2009

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Yes it is, and I question the way its wired as it looks as the black and white is used for feeds so the neutral must be ground. But more important that the both blacks look like they are using the upper 2 where the lower white are using the lower 2. Not sure what this is powering but for sure you shouldn't do a 12/3 or 10/3 cable like that, where you need to outer 2 or the middle 2 for proper load on the neutral. As 2 20 amps draw would add to 40 amp on neutral if on the same phase, but cancel each other if on phase A and phase B*.

BTW I question now why they put a quad in where they seem to be able to add 2 singles next to the main breaker for less money. As quad breaker are a bit pricey, over doubles or single breakers. Perhaps you need to do a quad also.

* Not really phases I know but to clarify this message.

OK 15 Min's later and I wish I could edit this message, because I FU*KING WRONG I'M THE IDIOT :rolleyes:

The whites together with the black together is right, I'm wrong. Back at the equipment where ever it goes the Black and White have 240vac on them. Look at what I posted where the outer 2 wires are different the middle 2 are different (that's right, but a quick look by me I think different) Mind is just about 20 Min's behind fingers nice I like the no edit thing on this forum, love the people hate the politics.

tcrossma · January 2009

Thanks for all the help, I'm going to try using those 2 empty spots for my new dedicated lines. If that fails for any reason, I'll do a quad breaker or something.

Thanks again.

djseafood · January 2009

I agree that it looks like the two spots opposite the 100 amp main should work fine. As you can see, each phase of the main breaker is split so one feeds the right side of the panel and the other the left.

Not sure of your experience level in this realm, so I just have to say be very careful in there! And remember that even when you turn the main 100 amp breaker off those two big wires feeding into it will still be hot unless you have your power company come by and disconnect your meter!

Since you're going to the trouble, I'd run 12 gauge 20 amp circuits. If you ever upgrade your panel you'll have all the juice you need. It seems like everything in your house runs fine on your 100 amp service even with your equipment. Just like a power strip, you can plug in as many devices as you want or put as many breakers in as you want, but you just can't run them all at the same time.

You may have trouble finding those old Gould breakers though.

tcrossma · January 2009

djseafood wrote: »

Not sure of your experience level in this realm, so I just have to say be very careful in there! And remember that even when you turn the main 100 amp breaker off those two big wires feeding into it will still be hot unless you have your power company come by and disconnect your meter!

My experience is such that I know enough not to do work in the panel. I'll run the lines and install the plugs and then have a friend of mine do the panel work.

Since you're going to the trouble, I'd run 12 gauge 20 amp circuits. If you ever upgrade your panel you'll have all the juice you need. It seems like everything in your house runs fine on your 100 amp service even with your equipment. Just like a power strip, you can plug in as many devices as you want or put as many breakers in as you want, but you just can't run them all at the same time.

Yeah, I was planning to do two 20 amp's with 12/2

You may have trouble finding those old Gould breakers though.

Yeah, I was just starting to research that today. It looks like most of the existing breakers are ITE (who acquired Gould I believe). And now Siemens has acquired ITE. Do you have any tips on where or how to go about getting the breakers? I've never purchased any before...

Thanks for the help!

Question about my breaker panel for adding a dedicated line

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