Upgraded Caps Low Pass SRSII's

NJPOLKER · December 2008

I decided to use Dayton Matallized Polyproplene Capasitors. Solens would have been my first choice but wanted to try a different cap after using the Solens in my SDA2a's and Monitor 10's. I used Sonicaps for the high pass in these SRSII's I must say I was not impressed with the apperance of the Daytons. They did not have a clean even outer wrap which should not effect the performance but does not give a good first impression. The leads on the caps I received were shorter than the Solens as I remember. You would think with big cans they would supply them with longer leads. I had to make up 185 uF so decided to use 100uF ($23.43ea) and 90uF ($20.29ea) and then the 33uF ($9.63ea) for each x-over.
After removing the Passive Radiator you have about a 14" opening to work through which is great, I need all the room I can get. I carefully marked with a pencil the connections I removed from the x-overs. Two from the innerconnects and two from x-over to x-over. If you look at the pictures you'll see where they are marked. I also used masking tape to label the wires, I took the time because failure is not an option. Its critical to take the time to label everything and pictures always are good. If I had to do it over again I would have taken alot of pictures, next time I will. Also to sure to do one x-over at a time, you can always look at the other x-over if you have a concern. Remove the drivers being sure to label wires and I noted where the drivers were removed from. Using needle nosed pliers I carefully squeezed the ends of the posts holding the x-over to the, hmmmm I don't know what its called LOL, base holding the copper coil. Its like a barb you have to press in to alow the posts to release the x-over. Once the x-over is released there will be two wires between the base and the x-over, binding post to x-over, carefully lay down the x-over on the bracing bracket. You'll need a 11 mm socket, extension and ratchet to hold the nut holding the base to the inside of the cabinet and an allen wrench to unscrew the bolt located on the back of the cabinet. Then you should be able to remove the lower pass x-over. Using diagonal cutters/wire cutters I snipped the leads on the old caps and carefully removed them. You may have to use a sharp knife to remove some old adhesive. I drew a circle with vaules around the spots with a line connecting the holes where the new caps belong. To de-solder the small wires left after snipping off the old caps use the soldering iron to melt the old solder and needle nose pliers to pull out the wire once solder gives way. Be sure the small opening is open so you can stick the new caps leads thru with no problem.
The new caps are much larger then the old ones. Dry fit the caps before doing any soldering. I mounted the two 33uF's first or on the board using some foam tape between the board and caps then a bead of hot melt glue holding the caps together. They were real secure when I was finished mounting them. Now here is where it can get tricky. There is not enough distance from the back of the passive radiator to monut the 185uF combo directly above the 33uF's. Since they are run in parallel I soldered the leads of the 90uF and 100uF together. Using some solid wire I connected the solid core wire to the board then soldered that wire to the two caps run in parallel, the 90 and 100uF's. Since they have to be off to the side of the board I used plastic binding ties and hot melt glue to secure them to the x-over. I wrapped the ties around the whole x-over being careful not to put too much pressure on sensitive areas.
Now its time to put everything back. Carefully lay the x-over on the angled support bracket so it holds it close so you can put the base on the bolt. Screw the nut onto the bolt and some hot melt to make it air tight. Next remount the x-over onto the four posts. Attatch the two wires to the IC and two connecting the x-overs. Since everything was marked you'll have no problems. Send the driver wires up and make connections being sure they are connected correctly.
Damn, I think thats about it! I wish I took the time to take alot of pictures. I hope I did not miss anything but if I did please feel free to make additions/corrections. Just trying to help others here and have some fun.
Already there is a big improvement in SQ. I listened to some Fleetwood Mac and gotta say it was eerie. I heard the strumming of the guitar that was so clear and detailed it was eerie. For some reason even the highs sounded better.

Drew Crawford

NJPOLKER · December 2008

I will post pictures of the finished x-over tomorrow.
Drew

ben62670 · December 2008

I like the beer can example. Some people just don't have a solid grasp on how much bigger good caps are:)
Congrats Drew:)
Ben

Face · December 2008

ben62670 wrote: »

I like the beer can example. Some people just don't have a solid grasp on how much bigger good caps are:)
Congrats Drew:)
Ben

No canned beer in this house, but next time I'll use a bottle.
http://www.cleanandquiet.com/upload/store/Mundorf%204.jpg

ben62670 · December 2008

Never any canned beer here either. Next time I'll use a Boone's Farm bottle:D

J/K Drinking is very few and far between;)

Polksaladanni · December 2008

I will defend PE and Daytons to a point.

1) A crossover is not meant to be in a beauty contest. ;^)The parts are for function only and never meant to be seen again.

2) Your most likely right. If the outer poly tape is the only thing wrinkled, it will probably be OK. You can peel the tape back a little till you see metal and smooth it back out. The big problem according to PE is sometimes they get deformed from being in the bottm of the bin and being exposed to the summer heat in the warehouse and the dumass packers don't know any better. (I usually order 3 of each for matching purposes then send leftovers back) In my 15 years of using PE, I have had only a few like, recently a couple of Film&Foil trims caps were ovaled, but all have been just Dayton/Bennics. If you call PE and tell them it looks like crap or you have concerns, there is a 99.9% chance they will send you another one on the house N/C. They do with me anytime I've complained or you can do return/swap

3) Of all the caps I have used over the years (Dayton, Solen, Kimber, NTI and now Jansen and Clarity) The Dayton/Bennics have been the most consistent and perfectly wound caps so far, time and time. Trust me I measure them with calipers. Although this truly doesn't matter, the leads soldered to the end-caps are almost always perfecty centered. Doesn't matter but, it tells me they take pride in their work and for good reason: they are THE choice for most commercial speaker building companies for their XO boards, coils, binding posts, terminal cups and yes, caps. The Daytons are the Bennic XPP's and are classified as high-end caps on their own site.

Here's a link
http://www.bennic.com.tw/en/filmcap/index.asp

4) The leads seem shorter because the Daytons are "standard" caps. By no means standard as in "average"... Standard as in "IEC standards and ISO standard" size. They are manufactured using a slimmer and longer dimension compared to the non-standard "fast cap" dimensions of Solen, Jantzen and most likely the Sonicaps. I don't know with the Soni's because I have never measuerd one or been interested in them. I doubt there is any audible difference unless you can hear in the Mhz. Caps like these are used in many other, very high frenquency, applications where accuracy/reliability counts.

One way or the other, I bet you like them as well or more than the Soni's from what I've been informed by true speaker builders on the PE site. They hate us "casual modders" and commercial buyers to the core, but I made friends with a few spewing what's left of my EE knowledge :^)

Hope this helps and Good Luck!
Happy Jamming!
Paul

NJPOLKER · December 2008

Pictures I promised
The first two are obvious.

The next two need some explaining, first picture was taken prior to her finding out about the Belles 350a and Anthem 2L I purchased. Next one was taken just after her learning about the purchases.
Drew

zingo · December 2008

NJPOLKER wrote: »

The next two need some explaining, first picture was taken prior to her finding out about the Belles 350a and Anthem 2L I purchased. Next one was taken just after her learning about the purchases.
Drew

That's awesome.

george daniel · December 2008

You are going to love the Belles,,, you certainly have an outstanding 2ch setup going,,, and I'm sure that your wife is very understanding,,regarding your audio purchases--:)enjoy:)----george

ben62670 · December 2008

Thanks for the Pics Bro/ I always enjoy seeing who we are typing to, and fam:)
Congrats
Ben

Polksaladanni · December 2008

Funny! I hope you still live in inside.

At least on the couch.

Your son looks shamed.

Good stuff.

So. How do they sound?

Paul

F1nut · December 2008

I don't know with the Soni's because I have never measuerd one or been interested in them. I doubt there is any audible difference unless you can hear in the Mhz.

Audible difference because of the dimensions or between the different brands?

F1nut · December 2008

NJPOLKER wrote: »

Next one was taken just after her learning about the purchases.

Too funny!!!

NJPOLKER · December 2008

I should not be surprised there is little interest in the first two pictures. Low pass cross over pictures are a bore compared to pictures of a woman scorned. She'd be really pissed if she saw that I have these on-line but not as pissed if she knew about the purchases. It'll take some work on my part to ease them into the system and she won't notice much but my children will. They will say "daddy bought some more stereo stuff" and mommy will come running!!
One of the things I have learned over the years is - Its easier to get forgiveness than it is to get permission.
Drew

F1nut · December 2008

The Daytons are the Bennic XPP's and are classified as high-end caps on their own site.

That's incorrect. Only the UPP and FPP are labeled as "high end" caps. The XPP's are labeled as "professional", whatever the hell that means. It's also not true that Bennic is THE choice for most commercial speaker building companies. In fact, the only company that I can think of using Bennic caps is B&W and I can't stand the sound of their speakers.

From Bob Stout's site:

Bennic is a Taiwanese trading company (the actual manufacturer is located in China) with a line of good quality, economy capacitors.

Dayton is Parts Express' "house brand", also used for their drivers and other products. The Dayton crossover capacitors are OEM'ed by the same manufacturer who supplies Bennic. All Bennic comments apply except that Dayton only supplies values ranging from 0.10-40µF.

Face · December 2008

Cambridge uses Bennic Caps in their S line. http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=213

Thank god they don't sound anything like B&W's.

F1nut · December 2008

Thanks Mike.

Polksaladanni · December 2008

Ack!

Your right, the XPP/Dayton’s are on the “Pro” line/row. As for “professional” definition pertaining as to audio, Pro Sound meaning it can handle large amounts of power/current. One way or the other it’s still a damn fine cap.

But allow me to retort and clarify on the Bennic statement.

What I meant by “THE” leading company in the commercial speaker business is that the major (as in quantity of sales per year) mainstream companies such as Polk, JBL, Klipsch and Infinity (not your smaller boutique/high-end makers) use millions of Bennic parts. (See below) And I’m betting more manufacturers than that have been using them since 1998? We will say? Hell, P,I and J all use Peerless/Vifa/Tymphany drivers for the most part nowadays.

Only a few use the higher grade caps, because they are not “cost effective” for the mass market speakers makers in order to keep costs down and, make a little money for all their hard work. Although as you mentioned, B&W, Cambridge and also Klipsch do use the Bennic XPP line of caps on their Bennic boards, etc… The “custom boards” are designed by the engineers of the speaker companies.

Could it be the B&W’s sound crappy because of some thing other than the caps? Say bad xo engineering, cabinet design/build, or crappy drivers? Don’t simply blame it on a cap. I have always thought of B&W as an audio processor/amp/receiver company, (a damn fine one too) never even gave one thought of them as a speaker company. I guess I am enlightened to that now. It’s kind of like Sony, Onkyo or Denon, I never think of speakers from them either.

All 3 XO boards I have modded lately the RT55, RTi6 and RTi8 use the Bennic fiber phenolic boards, resistors, terminal cups, binding posts, jumpers and coils mainly, which was my point. I listed them chronologically that way also. The RT55 is circa 1998. The LSI uses their coils, boards etc. Don’t know about the caps. I believe they are TI like the 55’s had, maybe Bennic bought the company and put it under their name a few years back. I’ll post pictures of all 3 boards if you need more verification. Or just wait till I get through playing with them and I’ll post.

Bob Stout? (Who is he and why should it mean something anyone?) He stated Bennic is a “Trading Company” yep he’s right, almost all businesses in the world are trading companies, mine included. I work for the largest industrial tire manufacturer in the world. Their corporate HQ and R&D is in Belgium, they have manufacturing plants in Belgium, Canada and 4 in ShriLanka where they also own 2 rubber plantations spanning out from the plants. We have worldwide dealers/service centers like Goodyear I guess. Except tires are the only thing we trade in.

Per Funk and Wagnall’s Encyclopedic College Dictionary-292 pages-Circa 1968
Trading: 1) To exchange, barter, bargain or sell. 2) To engage in commerce or business.

Your man above is just, dead wrong. Bennic is the same deal as my company. They have an HQ in Taiwan and own both of their plants 1 in Taiwan and 1 in China. You might want to send him this link

http://www.bennic.com.tw/en/profile.asp

and tell him he should read the company profile completely. The only thing you got a little wrong is that Bennic does not make or “private label” drivers for PE or anybody else. They don’t make drivers at all, at either plant or it most likely would be listed to the left in the original link way above under products. They do private label the XPP caps for PE and their chioces are much broader then Madisounds on the Bennic. Niether can stock everything Bennic makes... Our company does it also with 2 separate names other that the mainline name-brand tire. That way we can sell it to other dealers and not have a conflict of interest or breach. It gives us a "larger market to trade in". I think BB and CC did/do this with the Denon receiver model numbers to avoid price-matching competition. I have had both caps in hand and they are exactly alike even, down to the dimensions.

Hope this helps.

PS.

Sorry about the tread highjack NJ. ALL the pics are great and it takes a split secound to see you have a beautiful, loving and most importantly, good family.

(Lay off the audio though) : ^) joking

Tells us how they sound when your let back inside the house.

Paul

F1nut · December 2008

Polksaladanni wrote: »

Could it be the B&Ws sound crappy because of some thing other than the caps? Say bad xo engineering, cabinet design/build, or crappy drivers? Dont simply blame it on a cap. I have always thought of B&W as an audio processor/amp/receiver company, (a damn fine one too) never even gave one thought of them as a speaker company. I guess I am enlightened to that now. Its kind of like Sony, Onkyo or Denon, I never think of speakers from them either.

Ummmm...you're thinking of B&K. Ack again.

Bob Stout? (Who is he and why should it mean something anyone?)

Just some bloke who knows a lot more about caps than you or I do.

Per Funk and Wagnalls Encyclopedic College Dictionary-292 pages-Circa 1968
Trading: 1) To exchange, barter, bargain or sell. 2) To engage in commerce or business.

Thanks all the same, but I don't need a lesson in word definitions.

Your man above is just, dead wrong. Bennic is the same deal as my company. They have an HQ in Taiwan and own both of their plants 1 in Taiwan and 1 in China. You might want to send him this link

http://www.bennic.com.tw/en/profile.asp

and tell him he should read the company profile completely. The only thing you got a little wrong is that Bennic does not make or private label drivers for PE or anybody else. They dont make drivers at all, at either plant or it most likely would be listed to the left in the original link way above under products. They do private label the XPP caps for PE and their chioces are much broader then Madisounds on the Bennic. Niether can stock everything Bennic makes... Hope this helps.

Ummm....no where does he say that Bennic makes drivers, which is pretty obvious if you were to re-read that original quote.

Look, you may mean well, but your batting average has tanked. So, I have to say that no, you are not helping.

NJPOLKER · December 2008

I am in good shape with the family now. I bought her a new car that will be here at 5:00 pm EST today. She wanted a black car and I allowed it so I am making some points. Now that the Anthem and Belles will ship tomorrow probably delivered here Monday I gotta be sure I am the only one home when they arrive.
My Christams came early this year thanks to ME!!! and a few guys from the forum, thanks again, you know who you are.
Drew

BIZILL · December 2008

those pics made me lol. i know the feelin' for sure!

Upgraded Caps Low Pass SRSII's

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