PSW404 adjustments-2chan-music only

tdpofjc · June 2003

Background:Haven't purchased speakers since the Large Adents from the 70's, I know am dated myself...I still occasionally use them but have replace the woofer..I always remember being floored by the bass....

Well here goes: music ONLY setup

Hookup: ONYKO 8511-100w 2 channel Revc w/speaker wire to PSW404
PSW404 speaker wire out to two RT800i. The 404 sits in between the rt800is with 10 feet wire to each speaker. the floor is carpeted basement which of course is cement.

useing 80Hz switch to keep bass at the sub, which I believe makes the RT800i sound even better !!!

Question #1-What should the variable low pass (hz) dial be set to. The store told me it doesn't have an effect when using the 80Hz switch, but of course it does. please advice

Question #2- The phase switch 0 or 180. The store said I wouldn't be able to tell the difference, which I am not sure I can. They said to leave it at 0 ? please advice

Questions #3-It seems when listening to, yes may 70s music, steely dan, beatles, I have to turn the volume to almost 3/4. I was under the impression that since the 404 is 200watts I wouldn't get close to that volume setting? Pleae advise...
I did play my daughters, whatever you call it music, and found the bass very booming...please advise

feel free to e:mail- thanks to all for your opinions !!

ChrisDurano · June 2003

welcome to the forum.:) You have the Onkyo hooked to your sub via speaker line right? And then have the sub's speaker out goingt to your 800i's?

tdpofjc · June 2003

Yes..the hookup is from the recv to the sub w/monster speaker cable and then from the sub to each rt800i with the same wire.

thanks for the reply...I am not looking for an overly techy info but i do like to understand the features of any purchase.

TonyPTX · June 2003

Originally posted by tdpofjc
Question #1-What should the variable low pass (hz) dial be set to. The store told me it doesn't have an effect when using the 80Hz switch, but of course it does. please advice

The 80Hz switch is a manual low pass filter for the RT800s like you said. HOWEVER THE LOW PASS DIAL IS STILL IMPORTANT The dial controls at which point the subwoofer picks up the signal. Since you're running the 800's with the 80hz switch, you'll probably want to set the dial around 80Hz and adjust the knob to your bass liking.

Question #2- The phase switch 0 or 180. The store said I wouldn't be able to tell the difference, which I am not sure I can. They said to leave it at 0 ? please advice

BS Where the hell did you buy these things? You're getting really poor advice. The phase switch determines how the sub interacts with your 800's. My recomendation is to sit in your favorite listening position and listen to the bass. Then get up and flip the switch and listen again. The mode that sounds louder at your listenting position is the correct setting. You may have difficulty getting this right as it's not always clear cut which would be a good reason to get an SPL meter. Generally, if your sub is on the same wall as the 800's you'll leave it at 0, but do to the varing nature of rooms, most sub manufacters give you the ability to adjust this. The switch just controls how the sound waves affect your listening position. Either though addition or subtraction.

Questions #3-It seems when listening to, yes may 70s music, steely dan, beatles, I have to turn the volume to almost 3/4. I was under the impression that since the 404 is 200watts I wouldn't get close to that volume setting? Pleae advise...
I did play my daughters, whatever you call it music, and found the bass very booming...please advise

Once again, I think you need to adjust the other two controls before you play with the volume knob. Generally it's not a good idea to pass the 12 or 1 o'clock position on the volume knob with a sub. The lack of bass could be a factor of the above two questions or just sub placement. Lets get the first two knocked out before we start playing with sub placement.

Hope this helps,

Tony

tdpofjc · June 2003

Thank you for the reply....on question#1 I am a bit confused..why do I have a 80Hz switch if I can get the same result by setting the low pass dial to 80 ? The sub gets louder as the dial is turned passed 80 ? Am I making any sense ? as an example, what would be the result of have the 80hz switch on and the low pass dail at 100hz.

I understand your question#2 reply with the 0 ot 180 phase switch. It is difficult to tell but I'll have to experiement once I get the low pass settings correct. The setup is all on the same wall with the sub in the middle and an open floor.

Thanks again.

TonyPTX · June 2003

Originally posted by tdpofjc
Thank you for the reply....on question#1 I am a bit confused..why do I have a 80Hz switch if I can get the same result by setting the low pass dial to 80 ? The sub gets louder as the dial is turned passed 80 ? Am I making any sense ?

I have the 404 as well. If memory serves me right, the switch is labeled 80Hz and Full Range. By default, your reciever (assuming it's just a 2-channel with no digital processing or bass management) sends a full signal out of the speaker level outputs. You have those running to your sub. From the sub, you have the speaker level outs running to your 800's. If you put the switch in 80Hz mode, any signal lower than 80Hz is filtered out and is not sent to your 800's. This is usually the best configuration when you have a powered sub as it makes your mid-range sound fuller and the overall dynamics better. If you put the switch in Full Range, then the 800's get the full signal as if you were running them straight off of the receiver. SO in essence both the SUBWOOFER and the 800's are playing all the bass with the subwoofer no playing anything higher than what you have the low pass filter knob set at.

In essence, the knob controls the subwoofer cut off frequency and the switch controls the cut off frequency of what ever you have connected to the speaker level outs on the 404 (this case your 800's)

as an example, what would be the result of have the 80hz switch on and the low pass dail at 100hz.

Actually that's probably a good setup that you have right there. Based on this configuration, anything lower than 100 Hz is sent to the subwoofer with the 800's not playing anything below 80Hz.

Tony

PS. Welcome to the forum...I go so involved in the orginal response I forgot to welcome you

tdpofjc · June 2003

I think I have it now......The 80hz / full range switch determines what is sent to the 800s. The low pass dial determines how much signal or bass is played out of the sub. which explains why more bass comes out of the sub as the dial is turn toward 160hz. so in effect if the dail is set to 100HZ with the 80HZ switch set to on, then the sub plays 100HZ and below and the 800s play bass 80HZ-100hz ?

again for bass, 80-100 will come out of both the 800s and the sub... correct ?

sorry if I am making this harder than it should be...your explainations are excellent. I am not trying to split hairs with the setting, I just want to get it right..there are just so many variables for a novice who hasn't bought speakers in 25 years !!

Thanks again

GuitarheadCA · June 2003

The 80hz / full range switch determines what is sent to the 800s. The low pass dial determines how much signal or bass is played out of the sub. which explains why more bass comes out of the sub as the dial is turn toward 160hz.

B-I-N-G-O My friend, you got it.

And your also right that if you have the low pass set to 100, then from 80-100 they overlap.

By The Way, I'm a big fan of Onkyo and Polk together- congrats on your new purchase!

tdpofjc · June 2003

Thank you.. Thank you....There is nothing better than some reassurance that you know what your doing with any significate purchase...I think Tony and GuitarHead should rewrite the sub manual !!!

Guitarhead: do you have anything to add to Tony's replay to my original question#2 on how to set the phase switch to either 0 or 180. ?

Frank C.

TonyPTX · June 2003

Originally posted by tdpofjc
I think I have it now......The 80hz / full range switch determines what is sent to the 800s. The low pass dial determines how much signal or bass is played out of the sub. which explains why more bass comes out of the sub as the dial is turn toward 160hz. so in effect if the dail is set to 100HZ with the 80HZ switch set to on, then the sub plays 100HZ and below and the 800s play bass 80HZ-100hz ?

again for bass, 80-100 will come out of both the 800s and the sub... correct ?

ROGER THAT HOUSTON. WE HAVE LIFTOFF....!! As a note, the 800's play everything OVER 80Hz (i.e. 80Hz to 20kHz) so in consideration you have a bit of narrow band of overlap between the 404 and the 800's two which is OK.

sorry if I am making this harder than it should be...your explainations are excellent. I am not trying to split hairs with the setting, I just want to get it right..there are just so many variables for a novice who hasn't bought speakers in 25 years !!

No problem. Stick around. Now that you know how the x-over on subs work, be sure to pass the knowledge on to the other new folks!

As for splitting hairs on the sub setting, it's all based on what your ears like and no one elses. If you really want to be in audio nirvana, play around with that sub low pass x-over knob until you get a seamless blending of bass between the 800's and the 404 so that you can not distinguish where the bass is coming from and if you didn't know any better, you'd think it was coming from the 800's.

GuitarheadCA · June 2003

Yeah, I can add to the phase description.
Phase basically determines which way your speaker is moving at certain instant. So say your sub plays a note at 40 hz. the speaker will be moving in and out 40 times a second regardless of the phase. However what the phase changes is whether the speaker moves in-out-in, or out-in-out. So if you listened to the sub without any other speakers (and no wall interference), you wouldn't hear any difference between 0 and 180. But say your speakers are all moving out first on a certain note, you want your sub to match. So that's why they give you a switch. So in your listening positon, you want to adjust the switch so you hear the fullest sound. That means the drivers in the speakers and the driver in the sub are all Jiving. At first it would seem that either 0 or 180 would work for everyone, but it becomes neccesary when you want to point the sub away from the speakers, or move it in front or behind your main speakers to have a switch, so it can all jive in whatever circumstances.

tdpofjc · June 2003

I believe the store where I purchased the sub mentioned its the way the driver moves in and out...but when I looked puzzled he said that based on my setup, all speakers on the same wall with the sub in the middle faceing the same direction as the 800s, I should just leave it at 0.

Based on my music only setup would you tend to agree ?

TonyPTX · June 2003

Yeah I like what GuitarheadCA had to say. That's the mechanics behind it. As he stated, it has a lot to do with where your sub is placed in the room and what the delay is from the point that the sound wave eminating from the sub reachs you in combination with the soundwaves eminating from your 800's. Think of it as a big wave with a crest (high point) and a valley (low point) of the wave (ie. phase). You want the two waves (from the 800's and the 404) to reach your listening position such that both waves are at crests or both waves are at valley's (i.e. in phase with each other). SOMETIMES, you need to put that subwoofer in an odd place or a few feet further from the other speakers in your living room or home theater room. The difference in distance can add or remove the wave delay so that you might get a crest and a valley at the same time at your listening position (NOT a GOOD THING because the sound may cancel itself out making it sound thin or weak). So to fix it, you just flip the switch on the subwoofer so that it inverts itself and you get crests with crests and valleys with valleys (i.e. in Phase).

If you really absolutely want to be positive which is the right one, I once again seriously think you should consider purchasing a SPL meter. You can get one fairly cheap from RadioShack and use the meter readings to tell you which is louder.

Tony

PS. Stick with the analog meter as it tends to be a bit less jumpy than the digital one.

burdette · June 2003

There is a very good chance things would be fine if all the speakers were on the same wall facing the same way and you left the switch to 0. But switching it over to 180 may sound better to you, who knows. *IF* the salesman is knowledgable, perhaps he is used to *trying* to explain things to average people who just don't get it, so he's developed a 'minimum amount of information or they get confused" philosophy. Still no excuse for sending you home with incomplete information.

As for your question on the older music... Are you using the same source (i.e. is all the music on CD and you use the same player?) In general I think older music has less "slam" impact with bass.. perhaps because the bass was a good old bass drum and a bass guitar. Nowadays, synthetic bass can go as low as you want to go. Back in the 70s, Styx used a large church organ (in Chicago, I think) to get some really low bass on a track (Queen of Spades, I think). Today, no need to do that.

Don't compare your old music to newer stuff. Just listen to your old standbys and see if they sound as you remember they should. If the receiver and speakers are set up correctly, and if you're using the same player for old and new, and if the music/bass sounds fine on new music... then I can't imagine you're not getting everything with the old stuff.

PSW404 adjustments-2chan-music only

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