Nuforce vs Rotel?

skykeys · April 2008

Hello all. I recently heard about the Nuforce company and their compact design for amplifiers. www.nuforce.com

From the research I did, (reading reviews and people's comments and such), it looks to be really good stuff, with a very compact footprint; the footprint is what I'm most interested in. I'm wondering if anyone here has a Nuforce component and could comment on your experience with it first hand?

I see that Rotel's relatively new line of amps also have a sleek design. I would like to compare the Rotel RMB-1085 to the Nuforce MCH-2-C5. Both are five channel amps and take up less than 16 inches of depth. 15" depth is the limit in the cabinet I have for hi-fi components, and that is not going to change. So something around 15" or less would be ideal, but I've had a difficult time finding any of the better amplifiers with less than 16" depth; most are around 18" or more. The two aforementioned amps will fit in my cabinet.

I'd be much obliged if those in the know can offer information and opinions about which amplifier might be a better value. (I think it's safe to assume they are both high-end pieces of equipment in their own right).

Background info: I have LC265i fronts, LC-RTS-C center, and LC80i rears, in my five speaker system (plus DSW500 Sub), currently being pushed with a Yamaha RX-V620 amp (which was leftover from my previous system). The receiver works well, and my new speakers sound really good, so I have no qualms with that unit. However, I do realize that separate components would be better, and when I am in a position to upgrade, I will seriously look at biting the financial bullet and get higher-end separate components. I will still also consider sticking with a receiver - most likely the Yamaha RX-V863.

Thank you in advance for your comments.

Regards.

Gaara · April 2008

Good luck finding anyone who has compared the two, I haven't read any reviews yet on the Nuforce, and the Rotel I have only read impressions from a few of people. Neither seems to popular around here, all though Icepower is catching on. Any budget for your new purchase and any other requirements beyond compact size?

If you would like I can throw down my opinion on the two, I have no experience with the models stated but do have experience with icepower amps vs nuforce w/LSis.

dorokusai · April 2008

I had some NuForce monoblocks on loan and didn't like them overall. I was pleasantly suprised at how good they DID sound since my last experience was with some garbage ICE power amplifiers. The bass transients are VERY fast but sounded sterile and lifeless in the midrange, with no weight or presence. I also heard the Jeff Rowland Model 102 vs the NuForce and again they sounded much different when run on Sonus Faber Ellipsa. The Rowland was much warmer and a better match in soundstage. Neither amplifier ran out of steam and it at really perked my head up about these ICEpower amplifiers.

mightymouse · April 2008

Thanks Doro for your take on the icepower amps.

So Gaara, what's your take on these icepower amps and the LSi's?

Yamaha also makes a switching amp, the MX-D1.
http://www.yamaha.com/yec/separate/poweramp.html?CTID=5002400

Stereophile did a review on this amp a few years ago. The review was favorable overall, except that they noted the amp has a flat soundstage. How does the Yamaha stack up to these icepower amps?

Gaara wrote: »

If you would like I can throw down my opinion on the two, I have no experience with the models stated but do have experience with icepower amps vs nuforce w/LSis.

Gaara · April 2008

Mine is kinda similar to Doro's. I had a little amp shootout over a few months and during that time I did the compare a pair of Red Dragon Amp-1 icepower amps vs. a pair of Nuforce 8.02 amps on my LSi7s.

Both the Nuforce and Red Dragons had very impressive bass, they dug deep and was very quick. Mids were better on the Red Dragon, but nothing spectacular from either. The highs I preferred the Red Dragons, they were a little laid back and IMO a better match for the LSis. Sound stage and spatial cues seemed to be better with the Red Dragons, especially echo, but it was close. Other things to note, the Nuforce ran surprisingly warm for a switching amp and also has much more background noise when there is nothing playing, but it seems to go away once the music starts.

Overall I preferred the Red Dragons which sold new for less then I sold the Nuforce amps for used. I am sure their multi channel amp is nice, but if they sound similar to the 8.02s i don't think it will be worth it for the $3k asking price.

mightymouse · April 2008

Thanks Gaara for the comparison.

So how do the icepower amps stack up against traditional class A/B amps?

skykeys · April 2008

Hey guys. Thanks to everyone for your insightful responses. I am going to do some research on this "ICEpower" amps to understand them better; how they differ from traditional amps. I'll post back with more intelligent questions after I bone up on the topic.

Based on your comments, I'm particularly curious about why/how these ICE amps affect the sound stage and make the mids "sterile". Compared to what?

One question specific to Gaara: When you say Nuforce 8.02s, to what are you referring? I see no reference to "8.02" on the Nuforce website. Perhaps that is their older product line? I do see references to 8.5 and 9 mono blocks, along with a "V2" for their current technology base.

I'll also look into the other products you guys mentioned: Red Dragon and Jeff Rowland.

I have always been of the opinion, in part based on feedback from some audio people I've worked with in the past, and in part based on limited experience, that there isn't a significant difference in the sound you'll hear from amp to amp, everything else being equal. I never even thought there was a huge difference between using a receiver vs separate components. I can believe there is some difference, but not a lot. I think my system sounds pretty darn good now using a receiver. But I have to admit, I have never had one of these high end amps or separate component systems, so I can't say I've ever spent lot of time listening to one.

In this and other forums, people swear that they hear a big difference between amps. I care about the quality of my listening experience, so that's why I am determined to figure this out and improve my system - within the limitations I have, which is of course budget, but even more so - limited space in my cabinet.

Regards.

Gaara · April 2008

mightymouse wrote: »

Thanks Gaara for the comparison.

So how do the icepower amps stack up against traditional class A/B amps?

That depends on the traditional amp, I haven't tried many of what most would consider traditional amps. I preferred my Cinenova (A/AB) to a variety of amps from brands like Rotel, Parasound, Sunfire, Adcom and B&K. I liked the Cinenova more then the Red Dragons, but not more them my current EVS icepower amps. I liked the Red Dragons to a few Rotels and a Sunfire Cinema Grand but thats class H I think. I can go into detail if you like, as I spent weeks comparing various amps.

You should take into consideration that not all icepower is created equal. From my experience icepower amps can have different sonic signatures, my EVS ones have captivating mids, the Red Dragon and PS Audio amps I had didn't.

skykeys wrote: »

One question specific to Gaara: When you say Nuforce 8.02s, to what are you referring? I see no reference to "8.02" on the Nuforce website. Perhaps that is their older product line? I do see references to 8.5 and 9 mono blocks, along with a "V2" for their current technology base.

I'll also look into the other products you guys mentioned: Red Dragon and Jeff Rowland.

Before the 8.5 there was the 8s. The 8 had some updates and the 8.02 was the must up to date model before the 8.5 came out. I am unsure on the differences.

As for the Red Dragons, they are no longer available. I would recommend you look into D-Sonic and Wyred4Sound as well as Rotel for multichannel Icepower amps.

skykeys wrote: »

I have always been of the opinion, in part based on feedback from some audio people I've worked with in the past, and in part based on limited experience, that there isn't a significant difference in the sound your hear from amp to amp, everything else being equal.

From my experience the difference between some amps was large, and some was small...surprisingly small in some cases. It partially depends on synergy, I currently have my LSi7s being run of a $160 amp that I preferred to many others, some costing over 5x the price.

In your situation with in wall speakers I don't think the small differences between the amps you are looking at can justify the price increase. The difference between where you sit in the room will probably be more profound then the difference between the amps.

mightymouse · April 2008

Thanks Gaara for your comparisons. Really appreciate it.

skykeys · April 2008

Gaara, thanks for your very helpful reply.

As I look at the companies you mentioned, I'm finding that there are a lot of choices out there, (a review will mention yet another product, and so on) so it's going to take me some time to sift through all of the information and separate hype from truth. Opinions are all over the place on these things.

I've read good things about Bel Canto. http://www.10audio.com/cary_sli80_belcanto_s300i.htm

Nuforce gets a great review here: http://www.hiaudio.co.uk/NF/Ref9.htm

But here is something very interesting. All EVS ICEpowered amps are discontinued. Why is that? http://www.tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/Amp_page.html

One thing I noticed about the D-Sonic ICEpower multichannel amps is that they are larger and much heavier than comparable Nuforce products.

I'm not going to make any decisions for at least a year, so I have plenty of time to see how the market develops, and hopefully see more reviews on these newer products.

skykeys · April 2008

Just to update this thread, I have been reading a very interesting thread regarding NHT ICEpower amps. They are getting very good reviews from a lot of "everyday" folks (like us). The thread also contains some good technical information. All in all, one of the more useful threads I've seen regarding this particular topic.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1006934&page=10

The product would not work for me because it has too big of a foot print, but it certainly sounds appealing.

Regards.

mightymouse · April 2008

If you want those NHT amps, you'd better hurry up. NHT has discontinued that line, and once the remaining stock has been sold out, that's the end of those amps.

Gaara · April 2008

If you want good multichannel icepower I would focus on Rotel, Wyred4Sound, and D-Sonic. I don't know any others that make ones that are reasonably priced and fit your depth requirement.

The Bel Canto gets very good reviews but IMO is overpriced. The amp uses the same modules as the Red Dragons I spoke off, but those sold for $500/pr.

As for the nuforce your talking a whole new ballgame, are you really prepared to drop nearly $9k for 5 amps? You really need to figure a budget first, its not really fair to compare a $1199 5ch amp to $1750 mono blocks.

On EVS, thats Rics MO, before icepower it was Hypex for a year or so. He jumps around alot, likes to try new things, just like his mods. He apparently found some new amazing type of A/AB amp, but is somewhat hush hush on it.

As for the NHT, I didn't mention it because it is to deep for your situation. The power5 should be superior to the Rotels and comparable to the 250wpc icepower/wyred4sound amps. I had a WTB Add up a week ago for one. There are a few on Agon but it looks like they are price gouging. Listenup may have some in next week, if so I will be buying one. All dealers that I know of ran out of stock last week.

mightymouse · April 2008

Why are these switching amps so expensive, in the 2K or even 3K range?

I thought the whole point of switching amps is that they can be manufactured very cheap and have comparable sound quality to traditional amps.

Midnite Mick · April 2008

As a previous owner of both the Nuforce ref 8.02's and 9'02's I found a very large difference between the 2. The 9.02's were a lot more bodied and had better bass. The 8.02's sounded thin in comparison. These amps are extremely fast and after I sold them I really missed them for HT. I think in this application they really excel. I would love to own one of their multichannel v2 amps for HT. For me it would have to be v2 as the RFI problems have been eliminated. For music though they lacked the midrange emotion for me.

Have not heard any of the others to make any kind of comparison however.

Mike

skykeys · April 2008

Gaara, thanks again for the info. Yes, I realize now that the NHT amps are too large. (I couldn't initially find the size specs for them).

I found a thread in the AVS forum on this general topic, which among other things, contained a link to an interesting analysis of a Bel Canto ICEamp.

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/amplifiers/belcanto_eone_ref1000/

If you have a couple of minutes, could you look at that report and let me your thoughts about the distortion levels measured on that amp? If you have any other information regarding measurements of ICEamps, I'll be much obliged if you post it.

Thanks.

skykeys · April 2008

Midnite Mick wrote: »

As a previous owner of both the Nuforce ref 8.02's and 9'02's I found a very large difference between the 2. The 9.02's were a lot more bodied and had better bass. . . . For music though they lacked the midrange emotion for me. Mike

Hi Mike, thanks for your comment. Can you elaborate on what you mean by "lacked midrange emotion" ? Does that mean they are thin in the mid / lower mid frequencies? I know it's a subjective call to some extent, but I will factor in people's opinions here because we all care about quality of sound to a greater extent than the general public. I trust opinions here.

Thanks.

Gaara · April 2008

skykeys, I am not a big fan of reading measurements, I learned a while back they don't mean a whole lot in real life. I don't see anything out of the ordinary with the distortion spec, it stays below .1% with a 4/8ohm load with 500/1000wpc respectively. My EVS amps use the same module as the Bel Cantos, Ric just modified them and sold them for 1/2 the price. With no music playing there is no noise at all coming from the speakers. If you want more tech info just check B&Os site, they have all the info you could ever want on the modules there.

mightymouse wrote: »

Why are these switching amps so expensive, in the 2K or even 3K range?

I thought the whole point of switching amps is that they can be manufactured very cheap and have comparable sound quality to traditional amps.

Supply and demand, if someone is willing to pay 2k why not sell it for that price? I have heard of some people replacing $10k+ amps with icepower amps like the Bel Canto Ref1000s mentioned above that retail for $4k. From that perspective then yes they are cheap and have comparable sound quality to traditional amps.

It depends on what you want to spend, and how important a brand name is for you. My EVS amps retailed for $2k and used the same modules as the aforementioned Bel Cantos, but Ric modified them for better sound. They didn't sell that well even though they reportedly sounded better then the Bel Cantos for 1/2 the price.

Midnite Mick · April 2008

Simply put they lack the harmonics that to me convey emotion. Listen to a tube amp you will understand what I mean. It is just a certain beauty that maybe others can explain better than me.

I know with the Nuforces for whatever reason speaker synergy played a pretty big roll. At shows the Nuforces are often displayed on Usher speakers (and vice versa) because they do seem to match well...for whatever reason. Now add yourself a tubey sounding preamp and I think you will have something there. I used a Modwright which isn't a very tubey sound so I think that there are better options if you are going to use these amps. I think that this may be true for most of these types of amps. However, the speed and dynamics of these things are out of this world......which is why I think that they are ideal for HT.

Mike

mightymouse · April 2008

The only switching amp I have heard is a JVC shelf system that uses a switching amp. You guys are right, the bass control was really amazing. I was stunned that such a small system could exert this kind of bass control.

But at 2K and over, it is kind of hard to swallow, when you realize that all the parts probably cost less than $50. Supply and demand. Oh well, I guess I will be holding out my part of the overall demand curve until the supply really catches up.

Gaara · April 2008

mightymouse wrote: »

But at 2K and over, it is kind of hard to swallow, when you realize that all the parts probably cost less than $50.

I would love to know where you got the $50 in parts number for these amps.

mightymouse · April 2008

I don't have any real figures. $50 is only my guess.

The only significant cost inside an icepower switching amp is the icepower module. B&O is the only one making them, and is probably charging an arm and a leg for these icepower modules. So the question is, how much does an icepower module actually cost?

Is an icepower module more complicated to manufacture than a computer motherboard? How much does a motherboard cost?

SlowcarIX · April 2008

mightymouse wrote: »

I don't have any real figures. $50 is only my guess.

The only significant cost inside an icepower switching amp is the icepower module. B&O is the only one making them, and is probably charging an arm and a leg for these icepower modules. So the question is, how much does an icepower module actually cost?

Is an icepower module more complicated to manufacture than a computer motherboard? How much does a motherboard cost?

i remember reading somewhere they are ~$200 to $250ea

i got a 7ch d-sonic amp coming in with 3 x 1000ASP modules + 4 x 500ASP module for $2975

mightymouse · April 2008

Thanks for the figures showcarix.

skykeys · April 2008

SlowcarIX wrote: »

. . . . I got a 7ch d-sonic amp coming in with 3 x 1000ASP modules + 4 x 500ASP module for $2975

Hi SlowcarIX,

Please let us know how you like your D-Sonic amp when you get it set up. What preamp and/or AV processor will you be using? Speakers?

Thanks.

Gaara · April 2008

mightymouse wrote: »

I don't have any real figures. $50 is only my guess.

The only significant cost inside an icepower switching amp is the icepower module. B&O is the only one making them, and is probably charging an arm and a leg for these icepower modules. So the question is, how much does an icepower module actually cost?

$500/pr is a far cry from $50. Your guess was also assuming that they use the ASP modules with built in power supply. Many of these amps don't, adding a decent transformer alone will cost more then $50. I agree that some are very overpriced, the Red Dragon Amp-1s I mentioned sold for $499/pr while the almost identical Bel Canto M300s sell for $2k/pr. There are also many other Class D amps out there besides icepower.

The only amps I know with the kind of mark up you mention are the Gaincards. $100 or so in parts yet they sold for $3k+. You can get a Gainclone for <$200, I have one running my LSi7s right now that cost me $170 shipped.

skykeys, read below his sig he has LSis and soon to be Onkyo pre.

SlowcarIX · April 2008

skykeys wrote: »

Hi SlowcarIX,

Please let us know how you like your D-Sonic amp when you get it set up. What preamp and/or AV processor will you be using? Speakers?

Thanks.

i was using the d-sonic m500s w/ 2x500ASP with the LSi15 and then LSi9 for a few days and decided to send the amp back to dennis@d-sonic to upgrade to a 7ch amp. I really like them, never sound strained or harsh with everything i throw at them...

the av processer is onkyo: http://www.onkyopro.com/model.cfm?m=PR-SC885P&class=Preamplifier&p=i

LSi9/LSiC + FXiA4/RTi4 for surrounds

Hawkeye · April 2008

I've been reading this thread and have to ask this question. Please keep in mind I have no intention of belittling any equipment owned by anyone.

The prices on these pieces are all over the place and have no experience with any of them.

My question is: Will any of these amps high dollar or not, provide any benefit to an in-wall or ceiling mounted speaker?

Gaara · April 2008

Hawkeye wrote: »

My question is: Will any of these amps high dollar or not, provide any benefit to an in-wall or ceiling mounted speaker?

IMO yes, but with severe diminishing returns. Even though the speakers are inwall they can still benefit from a separate amp, albeit not as much as standard speakers would. For that reason I would recommend something like the Rotel RMB-1085 for $1199 to the OP, anything past that is getting into diminishing returns.

Systems · April 2008

Gaara wrote: »

The only amps I know with the kind of mark up you mention are the Gaincards. $100 or so in parts yet they sold for $3k+.

Yep their making a bit of coin on those things to be sure.:D

skykeys · April 2008

Hawkeye wrote: »

. . . . My question is: Will any of these amps high dollar or not, provide any benefit to an in-wall or ceiling mounted speaker?

Hi Hawkeye,

You probably noticed from my first note on this thread, that I have an in-wall and in-ceiling surround speaker setup, and that is exactly my question as well.

I am very happy with my speakers. Right now I'm powering them with a Yamaha RX-V620 receiver, and I think it sounds very good. But the idea of having more power is intriguing to me. My speakers are rated at 4 ohms, and I'd like to hear their potential at higher volumes realized with cleaner power from a larger amplifier.

In planning my upgrade (probably in a year), I'm debating on whether I should stick with a receiver or go with separate components. Besides budget - most everyone's constraint, my primary limitation is space. I'm not sure if the Yamaha RX-V863, which is the receiver I'm considering, will fit in my cabinet space. The smaller footprint of these ICEpowered Class D amps fits my needs. (they also happen to be way more efficient than "traditional" amps). Of course if I go with separates, then I need more components, thus having a different space problem to figure out - like whether the preamp and surround sound processor will fit.

Gaara makes a lot of sense when he says that we'd probably hear diminishing returns on a more expensive high end amp. I'm focusing on the 5-channel amps from D-Sonic, Rotel and Nuforce. Nuforce is a bit more expensive than the other two, but their stuff is interesting to me and I'm going to include them in the mix. I have been reading the comments about D-Sonic on the AVS forum. It gets good reviews. I've only seen a couple of reviews on the newer Rotel RMB 1085 ICEpowered amp yet, and they are good as well. I expect that in six months time, there will be more feedback available on Rotel and the others, and probably some newer products to consider as well.

Please keep us updated on any information you find out.

Regards.

Nuforce vs Rotel?

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