Ye Ol' Solid State vs. Tube Debate

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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited January 2008
    Thanks for the reads. Very educational and fun.
    Jake
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  • ShinAce
    ShinAce Posts: 1,194
    edited January 2008
    Some technologies just can't get a break.

    Earlier someone said that class A runs at almost full power. Actually, it always runs at full power, this type of biasing is what makes it class A.

    Another point with integration. For the input stage, the current source and basic design will affect the response the most. By integrating a good differential input stage with a good current mirror, you can have an almost universal input stage to use elsewhere, for pennies. This is a HUGE factor for big companies.
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  • rskarvan
    rskarvan Posts: 2,374
    edited January 2008
    No problem Joe, life is good.
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited January 2008
    Geez -- what the hell are you guys arguing about?

    In reality, you shouldn't be able to distinguish a great tube amp from a great SS amp because neither one should have a "sonic signature." My last SS amp sounded more "tube-like" (i.e., lush midrange, etc.) than the tube amp it replaced. So to speak of a "tube sound" or a "SS sound" is virtually meaningless.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited January 2008
    Early B. wrote: »
    Geez -- what the hell are you guys arguing about?

    In reality, you shouldn't be able to distinguish a great tube amp from a great SS amp because neither one should have a "sonic signature." My last SS amp sounded more "tube-like" (i.e., lush midrange, etc.) than the tube amp it replaced. So to speak of a "tube sound" or a "SS sound" is virtually meaningless.

    I'm not too sure about that EB. Has there ever been an amp so sonically neutral that all you hear is the music and just any coloration coming off the pre?

    I think the Tri Vista with its hybrid set-up, tubed pre, sand amp produces what I have found to be tonally accurate now of course this is all dependent on how true the source material and the source itself is to sonics of the instruments.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,396
    edited January 2008
    treitz3 wrote: »
    ***yawn***

    I'll raise you one ***yawn***
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 34,913
    edited January 2008
    reading about audio is sort of like reading about sex...
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,396
    edited January 2008
    rskarvan wrote: »
    Both Thiel and Polk use very sophisticated measurement devices to test their speakers. I believe that Thiel adjusts their custom-engineered drivers and very sophisticated cross-overs to more exacting test parameters than Polk does with their relatively simple cross-over and much more conventional drivers. Different markets.

    However, that isn't the issue. Has anyone in the industry done any test measurements to define a break-in period for electronic components (scientifically)? And, have these measurements been confirmed with ABX (blind) testing methodologies?

    Seems to me that if it were real, there would be some published DATA somewhere. Not recommendations. But, hard facts. Repeatable data.

    I do understand that Tubes may have some break-in characteristics due to their very finite life-cycle. But, solid state electronics is something different entirely.

    You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. Read one of Nelson Pass's owners manuals and you will see that capacitors and transistors do have a finite life cycle and change over time.

    You expound on this stuff when it's simply your opinion and it's not even a well researched opinion and has no basis in fact.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,636
    edited January 2008
    hearingimpared wrote: »
    Has there ever been an amp so sonically neutral that all you hear is the music and just any coloration coming off the pre?

    Yes. Belles 350A Reference.
    _________________________________________________
    ***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***

    2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
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    Thank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman
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  • rskarvan
    rskarvan Posts: 2,374
    edited January 2008
    heiney9 wrote: »
    You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. Read one of Nelson Pass's owners manuals and you will see that capacitors and transistors do have a finite life cycle and change over time.

    You expound on this stuff when it's simply your opinion and it's not even a well researched opinion and has no basis in fact.

    I'm glad that your ears are attuned to the very subtle changes that occur in electronics over VERY LONG TIMES (10+ years) in the first few hours of alleged "break-in". I may have silver ears... but, you must have PLATINUM EARS with a PLUTONIUM EAR DRUM.

    Either that, or you are just full of it. I'm guessing...your ears just aren't that precious.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,396
    edited January 2008
    hearingimpared wrote: »
    I'm not too sure about that EB. Has there ever been an amp so sonically neutral that all you hear is the music and just any coloration coming off the pre?


    This IS one of Nelson Pass's design philosophies and all of his designs try to limit coloration. The Aleph series has just 3 gain stages (a NP trademark) for the sole reason of having the fewest components in the signal path. Simplified of course, but you get the idea. There are many higher end designers and designs that have the same goal.

    This isn't always a good thing. Really depends on the rest of your system and I hate to say it, but what type of music you listen to, as well as the speakers you plan to use. Neutral amps (components) aren't everyones bag even though we all say it is.

    Listen to a passive pre-amp in ones system compared to an active pre-amp in the same system. For me personally it's a love/hate thing and not all passives sound good in all systems. I thing we would all agree having a passive pre is a cleaner, simpler, more neutral component.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • rskarvan
    rskarvan Posts: 2,374
    edited January 2008
    heiney9 wrote: »
    I thing we would all agree having a passive pre is a cleaner, simpler, more neutral component.

    H9


    Sure...until, you want to TURN UP THE VOLUME. Then, a passive preamp stinks.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,396
    edited January 2008
    rskarvan wrote: »
    Sure...until, you want to TURN UP THE VOLUME. Then, a passive preamp stinks.

    Then it's not matched to the amp properly, really that's what it comes down to. I know that as the vol increases on a passive pre bad things happen compared to an active pre.

    I have an integrated amp and the there is no active pre-amp stage it's a passive controller with a high gain amplifier and it works just fine. But I have heard passive pre-amps that have the issue you describe.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited January 2008
    hearingimpared wrote: »
    I'm not too sure about that EB. Has there ever been an amp so sonically neutral that all you hear is the music and just any coloration coming off the pre?

    Of course not, but that's my point. It doesn't matter whether an amp is tubed or SS, the design goal is the same -- to amplify the signal without **** it up.

    Solid state still has the stigma of being bright, and analytical, with a tendency to distort at higher volumes. I'm guessing today's SS amps generally sound better than they did 20 years ago. As a result of this stigma, the terms, "tube sound" and "solid state sound" drew a distinction between the two types of amps. Today, I think this distinction has been greatly diminished and such terms are relics of the past.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited January 2008
    heiney9 wrote: »
    This IS one of Nelson Pass's design philosophies and all of his designs try to limit coloration. The Aleph series has just 3 gain stages (a NP trademark) for the sole reason of having the fewest components in the signal path. Simplified of course, but you get the idea. There are many higher end designers and designs that have the same goal.

    This isn't always a good thing. Really depends on the rest of your system and I hate to say it, but what type of music you listen to, as well as the speakers you plan to use. Neutral amps (components) aren't everyones bag even though we all say it is.

    Listen to a passive pre-amp in ones system compared to an active pre-amp in the same system. For me personally it's a love/hate thing and not all passives sound good in all systems. I thing we would all agree having a passive pre is a cleaner, simpler, more neutral component.

    H9

    Ric and Brock, I guess I never really heard a truly neutral amp. The thing is that I've found something that produces the tonal character that I'm used to hearing with certain instruments.

    It seems the combo of tubed pre and sand amp gives me that tone. I've heard on several different systems and I get that chill.

    I dont' think I would like an amp that is neutral, Blasphamy!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,396
    edited January 2008
    hearingimpared wrote: »
    Ric and Brock, I guess I never really heard a truly neutral amp. The thing is that I've found something that produces the tonal character that I'm used to hearing with certain instruments.

    It seems the combo of tubed pre and sand amp gives me that tone. I've heard on several different systems and I get that chill.

    I dont' think I would like an amp that is neutral, Blasphamy!

    No problem there as I think each one of us would define neutrality in a different way. Always go with what you and your ears prefer. Adjectives just offer loose guidelines and there is no substitute for hearing gear in your own familiar environment. What works for me may not nec work for you and visa versa. That's why I love our local get togethers. Bouncing ideas around listening to new and familiar music and different gear. Can't wait for PF '08 ;)

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited January 2008
    How's this for an adjective; My analog rig sounds absolutely friggin AWESOME tonight.
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited January 2008
    hearingimpared wrote: »
    How's this for an adjective; My analog rig sounds absolutely friggin AWESOME tonight.

    There is some kinda rig that isn't analog? ;)
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited January 2008
    will it ever be possible to have a rig without speakers??

    RT1
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,545
    edited January 2008
    That Audio critic "10 lies" article is about the biggest collection **** I think I've ever read. He must be an "electrical engineer."
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Source: Rotel CD14MkII CD Player - Speakers: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited January 2008
    steveinaz wrote: »
    That Audio critic "10 lies" article is about the biggest collection **** I think I've ever read. He must be an "electrical engineer."

    I totally agree. The "10 Lies" is really the #1 lie. I used to follow that magazine before I had any money for audio. "50 cents worth of wire is the same as a $1000 set of speaker cables and here is the proof with graphs of the measurements" and "this pro amp delivers everything the Boulder whatever amp does for pennies on the dollar" etc. One by one I dispelled the hype. Even as a newbie audio person it was quite obvious after a few experiences that the magazine was total BS.

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited January 2008
    steveinaz wrote: »
    That Audio critic "10 lies" article is about the biggest collection **** I think I've ever read. He must be an "electrical engineer."

    I've read that too, what a crock of ****!
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  • BrettT1
    BrettT1 Posts: 560
    edited January 2008
    For me, personally, the 10 lies article might as well be completely true. I can't afford $1000 speaker wire or $50000 amplifiers.:(
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited January 2008
    BrettT1 wrote: »
    For me, personally, the 10 lies article might as well be completely true. I can't afford $1000 speaker wire or $50000 amplifiers.:(

    Just buy the speaker wire one inch at a time. :D
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • BrettT1
    BrettT1 Posts: 560
    edited January 2008
    That's a great idea Max!:eek: Why didn't I think of that?:confused: lol
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited January 2008
    I still remember "you can make any wire sound like any other wire by adding a capacitance, resistance and inductance to it". Hmmm... so lets say you want to eliminate some capacitance, resistance and inductance which is normally what makes for a really good expensive run of cable. What a dumbshit.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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