Sub and Amp question...

avelanchefan · July 2003

Looking to add a sub to my car. I want to add just one sub because i do not really want window shattering bass, just an upgrade from my current speakers that are not handling the bass.

So i was looking at the R. Fosgate 4412 12" sub, R. Fosgate 310m amp (mono), and a Q logic box.

Installed with all the wiring would run me about 445 450. Should I do it or am I getting ripped, and try to go with something else?

PoweredByDodge · July 2003

well u can do better for less -- but u're gonna have to buy online.

www.sounddomain.com

Image Dynamics IDQ 12 D2 V2 -- 200 bucks

RT 311-12 small enclosure for 1 12" sub (0.88 cubic feet) - 40 bucks

Hifonics Nemesis NX400 -- 400 x 1 bridged at 4 ohms rms -- 160 bucks on sale after instant rebate.

Lightning Audio Bolt PK8IC complete amp wiring kit (includes patch cables) -- 27 bucks.

if you have an aftermarket head unit then you'd use only what is above because you'll have pre-amp outputs on back of the aftermarket head.

if you dont... then you can get the same wiring kit, only get it without patch cables and its like 6 or 7 bucks less..

in addition you would then need (only if you dont have an aftermarket head) a Line Out Converter to turn your speaker level outputs into amp-"readable" signal. this sort of converter woudl run you like 20 bucks (and a 3 foot patch cable maybe 5 bucks at radio shack).

so all summed up you're looking at...

427 to 445 plus 10 dollars shipping = 437 to 455, but you'd be getting a sub that is 10000000000000000000000000 times better than the sub you had mentioned, and you'd be getting an amp of the same build quality but of better sound quality output -- AB two channels will sound a whole lot better than class D mono's... espeically since you are only using one sub.. you want all you can get out of it -- also -- that amp i posted puts out more power than the one you posted.

the box by RT is a better box than Q logic -- Q logic tends to be known for being "doggy doo" and not living very long... they're overpriced too... and those plastic mouth rings are aweful -- rattle rattle rattle.

its not a big job to install -- you can get it done in say an afternoon... i'd say less normally but this may be your first install - i dont know - if it is .. an afternoon shud be about all it takes u -- start at noon, done by 4.

PoweredByDodge · July 2003

... if u're an RF fan and want an RF amp - the punch 400S is about 180 bucks on sale at the same store -- for add 20 bucks to the total and then that same setup would work, but with the RF 400S isntead of the hifonics. -- personally i'd do the hifonics, but its all preferance, probably sound the same.

avelanchefan · July 2003

thanks PBD.

The problem I am running into is the install. The thought of it is scary to me. I am not very "electronically inclined", meaning I have installed a few decks and speakers but the thought of doing a sub for some reason scares me.

Is there a site you can direct me to that would shoot me in the right direction of installation of a sub. What is so great about Image dynamics subs, and hifonics amps? To tell you the truth I have never heard of either one of them.

sntnsupermen131 · July 2003

www.the12volt.com might help you out
its not that hard...same as a regular speaker...main difference...bigger wire
hifonics makes amps that are VERY clean for their price...they make good stuff
image dynamics is more of your top of the line stuff
theyre VERY good
they have subs that run 1500watt rms...and sound cleaner than my 500 watt momos...if i could afford the amp to push them...id get them myself
-Cody

PoweredByDodge · July 2003

i'll tell u what makes image dynamics so good -- they are a company that revolves around two things... 1- sound quality, and 2- durability.

they dont care about product flashyness... they dont care about they're profit margin as long as they're not losin money, and they spend every waking moment researching their speakers. they're nerds.

i've got two image IDmaxes -- the big magilla cody mentioned earlier... i run about 1300 - 1400 to each of them... and my god, they're loud... but they're ssooooooooooo CLEAN !

this may be interesting, funny, or both -- the only reason i even found out image dynamics existed is i was parousing the Car Audio chat on America Online, because i was hunting for a subwoofer that sounded very much like and handled as much power as the old polk audio DX series... i was directed to the ID stuff .. being told it sounded a little better, handled a shade less power, but all in all was a great replacement / slight upgrade...

well i ended up going with the BIG sub instead of the medium one, but point being made, its good product and will give you flashbacks to days of polk DB equipment...

in short, for 200 bucks you're getting a sub that's worth every penny if not more.

as far as hifonics goes... like cody said, super clean, good reliability, solid product for CHEAP! the RF amp i posted up there will do about the same job... and its the same build quality pretty much -- but its 20 bucks more -- hence the "cheap" part.

regarding doing your own install... dude... cake walk.

when you put your sub in your box, there will be two terminals inside the box, one marked +, one marked -, just jump your + and - terminals on the sub to those inside the box with a piece of about 1 foot (or longer/shorter depending on how deep the box is) 12 gauge sepaker wire.

for the particular sub i mentioned do not use any polyfill in that 0.88 box... it's dead on perfect.

so you just drop the sub into the hole, make sure you've got the little foam gasket on the back of the sub, and then slowly and carefully put your 8 screws into the box.

as far as the amp goes... you'll run roughly 15-ish feet of power wire from under the hood at the positive battery terminal back to the cabin area where the amp will be mounted -- the main fuse will go with one foot of the battery on that line you ran. run it all under the carpet - not a tough job, there's like 5 or 8 screws on your trim piece on the floor, u undo those and the carpet slips right up...).... mount the amp somewhere sturdy and safe -- hell you can bolt it to the side of the sub box if you want -- as long as there is room to put that box somewhere -- thats the only hardpart about installing subs -- finding out where to put them!

anyway to finish up quick here -- you'll run the RCA cable from the back of the head unit to the amp as well... in addition, a blue remote turn on wire from the head to the amp... so you've got RCA's, remote, and pwoer wire goin to the amp... then u just jump a 1 foot piece of that power wire from the ground terminal on the amp to the vehicle chassis (just cut a tiny hole in the carpet scrape away some paint, and drill a hole.. then screw the wire down.

the 12 votl is great.. what else is great is crutchfield's guide to car audio isntallation...

its downloadable from their website... its probably a 10 minute download on the phone dial up thing, but its worth the 10 minutes -- for a first timer it really gives u a nice illustrated step by step thing on how to do everything from headunits to amps and what not...

http://pix.crutchfield.com/CarGuide/CarGuide_72.pdf

there's the link... just opposite mouse button click on that and hit "save target as" -- then u can save it to your desktop or something. if u just click on it then it'll try to open up in your browser and will take like 20 minutes to frickin load... best to opposite click / save as.

its like 1.5 megs i think.. not too bad.

avelanchefan · July 2003

PBD,

Thank you for the link. I think I will be able to handle this on my own. I have a friend that is semi knowledgeable in Subs also so between the two of us I think I/we can get it done.

I have one other minor question. you wrote something about a "a blue remote turn on wire from the head to the amp" where does this go on the head unit? I could not find anything in the crutchfield manual about this. And what does it do? is it actually a remote for the amp?

All new to this so i thank you for your patience and HELP!:)

PS- Can you also tell me the difference between the Image Dynamics ID12 v.3 and the one you mentioned above? The only difference I could tell was the RMS and Watts were different. (RMS 250 vs. 350 & 500 Watts vs. 700 watts)

sntnsupermen131 · July 2003

the remote lead turns on your amp when your radio turns on...thats all
if youre using a metra harness for the radio...i BELIEVE the amp turn on is white/blue
but im not sure...dont know by heart
call crutchfield
18006530982
-Cody

PoweredByDodge · July 2003

ya basically the remote wire just tells the amp "ok the guy turned the radio on, so u can start sucking power...." or "radio turned off, so amp shut off too".

that's all it is -- if you have an aftermarket head then on th eback of it will be one or two blue wires.... if there is only one then it'll be solid blue or blue with a white stripe.

if tehre are two, then the one with the white stripe is for the amp remote turn on... the solid blue is for the power antenna turn on (wont work for the amp since it only triggers when u are on an FM station). dinky little 18 or 20 or hell even 22 gauge wire is fine for a single amp remote on -- running multiple amps, run 18 gauge then split off from there.

as far as differences between the two subs.

putting power aside, its response. i had this same discussion with another person when he was lookin to repalce a phoenix gold sub...

here... look into my magic ball...

the closely spaced dotted lines (not the dashed, not the red... just the dotted) represent the response of the speaker in a sealed box *what you'll be using* ...

top is the ID V3 , bottom is the IDQ V2

from 10 to 20 hertz they're about the same... from 20 to 30 you'll see the IDQ retains its same response while the ID starts to go downhill.

by 40 hertz, the ID has lost 3 db's or so while the IDQ has only lost 1.

by 100 herts the ID has lost 10 db's, the IDQ has only lost 5.

the moral of the story is the IDQ gives you a much FLATTER response curve... ideally if a speaker was "perfect" and the world was made of candy canes, that graph would be a straight line all the way from left to right.... like dead on 95 or 90 or whatever straight across the board... but no speaker on earth is that perfect... but the point is the closer you get to straight, the better the speaker is going to sound and perform.

so to me, its worth 40 or 50 bucks more for a sub with half the average slope over the 100 hertz range, and a little higher power handling. u may not agree, in which case, the ID V3 is the sub for you... build quality is just as good as the IDQ series... and soudn quality is still a hell of a lot better than the rockford sub you were thinkin about.

I'd still go with the IDQ tho... the last guy i talked to about this went with the IDQ and was jumping up and down for days in utter bliss over the kind of response he was gettin outa his sub.

PoweredByDodge · July 2003

and for **** and giggles, look at this -- its the idmax v2 response chart -- it was done in a 1.3 cubic foot sealed box... which over time has proven to be too small for the sub -- well not "tooooo" small, but smaller than "ideal". it loses 6 db's over the 100 hz range, which for a large **** sub is pretty darn good -- its got a similar response to a 400 watt SQ sub... hence, why its looked at as a 1500 watt "sq" sub.

if you open up the box a bit and get it up to around 1.45 - you'll see the bottom end and top end flatten out a bit and that curve gets straighter... recent tests show the max v2 losing about 4 db's in a 1.45 box, and the max v3 doing as good if not better. over 1.45 and u start to see better low end response but poorer and poorer high end... so u end up defeating the purpose...

avelanchefan · July 2003

Thanks PBD great graphs.

Ok so it looks like I am going to make this purchase. 9With the IDQ V.2

Again one "other" question. I am covering all my bases before the install, so I do not run into any "surprises". Well I may have found one....I have satellite radio. The main satellite tuner is hooked up to the batery also. Should I go ahead and hook up the sub to the battery to, or should I try a different method?

PoweredByDodge · July 2003

well u mean the sub AMP not the sub itself (i hope that's what u mean..lol)...

yes u can jump the power line (8 gauge should do ya fine -- 4 is unnecessary for under 500-ish watts) right off the battery terminal -- jsut use a ring terminal and pull the screw out of the battery clamp -- slide the ring terminal under the screw, put the screw back in - voila, you're done with that part.

and dude, i didn't make hte graphs - i stole them off www.imagedynamicsusa.com

fred keeps claiming he made them but i know damn well he didn't...lol. guy who did the analysis on most of the pre-2002 model stuff has been "relieved of duty" as he was a real "jackass". and from how he jack-screwed me with a certain thing, i'd agree with his dismissal. guy was dumb as a box of rocks.

if u have any problems with the sub or whatever, either call the customer service number and ask for Matt or Fred. if you are having trouble and getting the voice mail box, you can email fred at Image690@aol.com -- they go to lunch for like 2 frickin hours -- and never check their voice mail so u gotta call and call and call or email the dummy. good guys though

avelanchefan · July 2003

Thanks for the all the help. I really appreciate it. (Yes I meant the amp not the sub.:) )

I just wanted to make sure that hooking up the amp to the battery wiuth the satellite radio already hooked up to the battery would not cause me any problems.

PoweredByDodge · July 2003

*arnold voice* -- "no problemo"

emaze · June 2006

can anyone help me....
what amp would be good to run this and how much watt does the amp need and what amp wiring kit is use for a 500watt 10' sub?

MacLeod · June 2006

An amp that makes 500 watts would be a good choice.

emaze · June 2006

what gauge wire to you use when you have a 400 watt 2 channel amp?

MacLeod · June 2006

Depends on how big a wire the amp will accept.

exalted512 · June 2006

Yoda wrote:

Depends on how big a wire the amp will accept.

....

MacLeod · June 2006

Umm.....huh?

Sub and Amp question...

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