SDA 1.2TL with Sub

puunda · April 2006

Hi all,

I've posted this before, but didn't get anywhere, so thought I'd try it again.

I've got a pair a 1.2TL's. I've also got a Velodyne F1800RII 18" active servo sub. I've tried to intergrate it into my system with some success. Recently I've upgraded my AV amp (Denon 2106), which has some better/worse bass managment my old (Marantz SR8500). The 2106 allows xover from 40, 60, 80+ Hz, where as the 8500 only allows 80+ Hz. So that's the good thing. The bad thing is that the Denon ALWAYS has the sub going, no matter what mode or how you set up the speakers - I find this so strange. However, that's not my question.

My question is this. I know the 1.2TL's have a good bass response (not as good as an 18" active servo of course). How low does the PR take over? What xover freq should I set it at? I figured since they're so big, they should do 40Hz no problems, which is what I've set them to, so the sub is actually doing very little work. But I don't know the kind of rolloff a PR system has, or when it starts rolling off. Has anyone seen or measured the bass response of the 1.2TL's?

Thanks

Puunda

F1nut · April 2006

You're good at 40Hz as the 1.2TL's start to roll off at 27Hz.

puunda · April 2006

Great. Thanks.
Any idea when the PR takes over?

F1nut · April 2006

It doesn't really take over as much as it compliments below 150Hz.

JCL · April 2006

Passive Radiator Info

puunda · April 2006

Thanks for the info JCL. Interesting read. Althought after reading that, I'm a bit confused. According to the article, there is a narrow range which the PR resonates at, and either side of that it rolls off at 18dB. 150Hz seems very high dosen't it? If these things start rolling off at 27Hz? Am I not understanding something?

danger boy · April 2006

i think we sometimes think that all subwoofers have to always hit around 20Hz. to make a difference. I'm thinking that most of what we listen to, whether it be music or movies... rarely ever hits as low as 20Hz. most of it probably between 28Hz and 40Hz.

Dennis Gardner · April 2006

danger boy wrote:

i think we sometimes think that all subwoofers have to always hit around 20Hz. to make a difference. I'm thinking that most of what we listen to, whether it be music or movies... rarely ever hits as low as 20Hz. most of it probably between 28Hz and 40Hz.

Al has it right. The lowest note E1 on a bass guitar is 41.2hz. So unless someone is using a synthesizer or some electronics to lower tones by an octave, this would be about the lowest you hear in rock music. The lowest note on a standard 88 key piano (you know, those that you can barely hear since the strings are so long) is an A0 at 27.5hz.

Their are electronic organs, pipe organ, sub bass contra instruments that go lower, but not normally in recorded music.

danger boy · April 2006

Dennis Gardner wrote:

Their are electronic organs, pipe organ, sub bass contra instruments that go lower, but not normally in recorded music.

I want to hear a pipe organ in some rock music some time. :eek: Maybe Kelly Clarkson will use one in her next song.

dorokusai · April 2006

Great comments Dennis and JCL.

puunda · April 2006

danger boy wrote:

i think we sometimes think that all subwoofers have to always hit around 20Hz. to make a difference. I'm thinking that most of what we listen to, whether it be music or movies... rarely ever hits as low as 20Hz. most of it probably between 28Hz and 40Hz.

I agree that there is not much information at 20Hz when it comes to normal music. However I do like the sound of a good sub in my system. Although it may not be the 20Hz, and maybe it's because I've got it set too loud, but the 'rumble rumble' is more apparent, whereas even with the mighty 1.2's they seem lost in the background somewhere.

My problem has always been intergrating it such that it works well with both music and HT. Look like this new AV amp will do quite well.

I-SIG · April 2006

In my experience, an SVS made a huge difference with my SRS's. I had a massive canyon of like 10dB from about 70-40hz. It was very audible. As soon as I added and calibrated the SVS I got nice flat response down to about 50hz with a nice, gradual 3-5dB rise down to 25hz. I figure it doesn't get much better than that.

Wes

Dennis Gardner · April 2006

puunda wrote:

My problem has always been intergrating it such that it works well with both music and HT. Look like this new AV amp will do quite well.

Puunda,

Bear with me while I ramble some thoughts of mine about sub usage.........

I think your problem is that you bought a great 18 inch sub and expect it to work really hard because it would be a waste to not use it for everything.

A really great sub/main integrated system with mains as large as yours should rarely get the sub rocking on music, since the material simply doesn't have much of anything to reproduce. Rumbles aren't built into the recording, but your mind seems to think that this is adding to the music somehow. I used to be addicted to the loudness button, the bass and treble knobs, and ran my equalizers in that ever so familiar smiley face mode. It took months for me to wean myself from the added EQ that I thought sounded best. Once I had forced myself to listen to my system with all settings "flat" I started hearing more of the middle ranges that contained all the nuances of the voices and instruments that compliment vocalists. My sytem now doesn't even have any type of tone controls or even a balance knob to get in the way of the music, and the subs stay off with music on my SDAs.

Now put on a movie with DTS explosions and my dual Adire Shivas will rock my whole house on the wildest of scenes, but only when the soundtrack calls for it. It is all about calibration. A sub is a great addition as long as its integration is seamless.

Thanks for reading this if you got this far, and please don't take this personal, as this is simply my experience from my listening/learnings.

DG

soupbone · April 2006

Puunda
I have to agree with alot of what Dennis stated. I added a Vandersteen sub with my 1.2tl's....With music more slam really won't be obtained because the SRS's are that good. HT is another issue. With the Vandersteen sub I rolled off starting at 80hz with the their (vandersteen) crossover. It rolls off gently so the SRS's still produced bass in the 40hz region. My SRS's never sounded so good...the midrange bloomed like never before and female voices were as sweet as ever. This is because the the burden of producing the low bass freq's are taken off the midrange drivers. With the gentle crossover slope the Vandersteen worked so well that I had to get up and check to see if the sub was even on. That's when you know it was done right. The sub should never call attention to itself. I aslo tried an Energy 18" sub. It was alot harder to work into the system because the big boy really woofs....but for HT nothing punches you in the gut like a big sub. Good luck!

hoosier21 · April 2006

holy cow, soupbone is back, where you been?

whitetruk · April 2006

i could`ve not said it better myself,felt like i was typing.

puunda · April 2006

Dennis,

I hear what you're saying, and used to be me. But I've not had any tone controls for a long long time. I always listen to everything on the 'Direct' or 'Pure Direct' setting on my processor. So the signal is always flat. I've never liked tone controls, eq etc, but I am always happy to 'tune' the sound physically. Like positioning speakers, damping room, adding sub etc.

I've tried 2 other Velodyne subs, a 10" and 12", both active servo. I was simply not happy with them. They either were booming away, or not manking any difference. So I simply use them for the LFE on movies.

The reason I'm using this sub both for music and movies is because I think it sounds a lot better with the sub. Same reason people find different CD players, cables, pre amps etc make their system sound better. There is more information there when I use the sub. Is it in the sweeter midrange like soupbone? Not sure. Is it the nicer bass of an active servo sub? Not sure. What ever it is, I like it more than just the 1.2's. You'd never know there was a sub until you turn the sub off.

Currently I've got the sub xover at 40Hz, and am very happy with the setup (other than the fact that my av amp dosen't ever seem to turn the sub off. But luckily things work so well I don't want to).

The reason I posted this message originally was to ask when does the PR 'take over', so I can decide on the xover point.

schwarcw · April 2006

I've found that positioning of the SDA's is also a major factor in the bass response. If it's closer to the wall, the bass will sound large and even booming. The farther away from the wall, less bass. The bass braces will also add more low frequency. I use the sub because my 2.3's are about 14" out from the wall. I have the sub tuned so you don't even notice it's on. I just wish it wasn't so visible. An SVS isn't easy to hide!

reeltrouble1 · April 2006

I would recommend getting a true muscial pre-amp, of course I would suggest tubed, you might be suprised how much that receiver is holding back your speakers. Get one with an HT pass through.

Just a thought.

RT1

puunda · April 2006

reeltrouble1 wrote:

I would recommend getting a true muscial pre-amp, of course I would suggest tubed, you might be suprised how much that receiver is holding back your speakers. Get one with an HT pass through.

Just a thought.

RT1

I've hear this quite a few times. People tell me to use a preamp over a av amp. I'm not too sure on the reasoning.

How do I get a stereo pre amp in there so that it works with my system?

reeltrouble1 · April 2006

A pre-amp designed for music like the oh Dodd ELP lets say, just has better everything, circuit board, caps, resistors, and so on, less noise added to the signal, no sharing of circuitry, no digital signal processing its just better. The Dodd has great bandwith and digs pretty deep, there are many pre's on the market that are excellent if you prefer a different make.

The HT pass you run analog from your source into the pre then output to your amp. If you use the HT DD or DTS you input with a digital cable to your AVR then output to the Pre which outputs to an amp. You need a stand alone 2-ch amp.

This type setup just cant help but blow the AVR's away the Denon, Onk, HK, Pioneer and so on.

Besides that tubes rule, there are ss state pre's with pass through also, its really the best way to run a true 2ch inside a HT.

I am outta here for a few days, so one of you other will answer anything I missed.

RT1

F1nut · April 2006

Ted covered it very well. Only thing I can add is a pre amp has a separate power supply too.

puunda · April 2006

reeltrouble1 wrote:

The HT pass you run analog from your source into the pre then output to your amp. If you use the HT DD or DTS you input with a digital cable to your AVR then output to the Pre which outputs to an amp. You need a stand alone 2-ch amp.
RT1

Is HT pass the same as a 'Processor Loop' I've seen on some pre amps?

So for stereo, I run it into my pre amp correct? I run my digital/HT sources into my AVR (which does the decoding) and I take the front L/R into the pre amp (assuming into a special input for HT passthorugh). The remaining channels/sub goes on about their business ... If this is how I understand it, then does the HT pass bypass the volume on the preamp? If this is so, isn't this bad? I thought (one of) the weak link in the AVR is because the volume was in the digital domain, not the analog?

F1nut · April 2006

Here's a discussion you might want to look at, http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?bhome&1144327521

reeltrouble1 · April 2006

Yes, the gain control on the AVR controls the HT, the gain on the pre-amp controls 2 ch. Nothing wrong there. During HT the signal for the fronts is simply "passed through" the 2ch pre.

RT1

Fallen Kell · April 2006

If the 1.2TL's start rolling off at 27Hz as posted above, you should really look at using 60Hz as your crossover. You really want your sub(s) dealing with the majority of the signal before you actually hit your rolloff point from the speakers. The crossover in the Denon I believe is 12db per octive, so you really need that extra octive in there to get most of the signal off the mains and onto the sub(s) before the mains start rolling off and causing a valley in your frequency. By pushing it up a little higher you will smooth things out in your lower frequencies (assuming your subs can handle the frequency range, which your Velodyn should be able to do).

Get out a SPL meter and break out a frequency sweep CD and do a graph. It will only take 30 minutes or so to do a sweep with a 60Hz crossover and a 40Hz crossover even with doing a level match after the crossover change. Find which plot has a "flatter response" and go with that crossover. Heck, for kicks even try the 80Hz crossover just to be sure what you were using before wasn't truely best for your room, as your room will play a role in this due to standing waves.

mrbigbluelight · April 2006

what is a good meter to buy, and what is a good source ?

I believe Radio Schlock has SPL's, wondering if there offerings are any good.

Thanks.

gammajo · April 2006

I use a sub set at 50 and fairly low volume with my 2.3's. It handles home theatre and adds just a touch on Songs with low bass. Think of it as a spice, a little goes a long way.

puunda · April 2006

Fallen Kell wrote:

If the 1.2TL's start rolling off at 27Hz as posted above, you should really look at using 60Hz as your crossover. You really want your sub(s) dealing with the majority of the signal before you actually hit your rolloff point from the speakers. The crossover in the Denon I believe is 12db per octive, so you really need that extra octive in there to get most of the signal off the mains and onto the sub(s) before the mains start rolling off and causing a valley in your frequency. By pushing it up a little higher you will smooth things out in your lower frequencies (assuming your subs can handle the frequency range, which your Velodyn should be able to do).

I believe my Denon has a funny XO slope where the LP is 24dB and the HP is 12dB (my car amp does this also, although I have no idea why).

SDA 1.2TL with Sub

Comments