Benchmark DAC1 - VERY DISAPPOINTED!

Dennis Gardner · August 2005

heiney9 wrote:

I guess this is ultimately going to come down with a debate about error correction...how much is too much...can it be heard...does it affect the sound...etc.

H9

That is the point behind the different drive and isolation technics. They believe less correction relates to better sound. I don't know the answer, as I seem to find drastic differences in my system in the smallest of places, and yet swapping out of major components yields less return at times.

Back on topic, I like what my external DAC does for my system, but a cdp with good internals can produce nice results too.

Who knows?

steveinaz · August 2005

Heiney9 is dead-on balls accurate with the error correction scheme. The ONLY form of audible error correction is muting; the most drastic, such as when a disc skips or refuses to be read at all.

I can't begin to understand why different transports would sound differently, or why a Toslink connection sounds different from a coax. I think it has to be something related to the external DAC input circuitry, NOT the output used. For example, my AES/EBU output/input sounds smoother than my coax output/input (CD to DAC)., and it's not subtle. Maybe the AES/EBU input on the DAC has better circuitry? I don't know, that **** over my head...

madmax · August 2005

If that tray vibrates a lot it can cause the disc and attached mechanisms to vibrate. Each is a little piece of the puzzle. Not all manufacturers consider each piece either.

Emlyn · August 2005

steveinaz wrote:

I can't begin to understand why different transports would sound differently, or why a Toslink connection sounds different from a coax. I think it has to be something related to the external DAC input circuitry, NOT the output used. For example, my AES/EBU output/input sounds smoother than my coax output/input (CD to DAC)., and it's not subtle. Maybe the AES/EBU input on the DAC has better circuitry? I don't know, that **** over my head...

I have noticed that my CEC CD 3300 works much better as a transport using the AES/EBU output to a Parasound DAC than using its coaxial output. The Parasound DAC has a separate interface chip for the AES/EBU input though. I don't know if the Benchmark DAC is implemented the same way, but it sounds like its best performance potential is also found by utilizing its balanced input, which inherently means using a high quality transport (because that's the only type that has an AES/EBU output).

heiney9 · August 2005

Dennis Gardner wrote:

That is the point behind the different drive and isolation technics. They believe less correction relates to better sound. I don't know the answer, as I seem to find drastic differences in my system in the smallest of places, and yet swapping out of major components yields less return at times.

Back on topic, I like what my external DAC does for my system, but a cdp with good internals can produce nice results too.

Who knows?

I'm with you...I don't know the answers and sometimes I need to just stop asking questions

. There are an infinite amount of variables that can affect our perception of sound and to begin to understand what/why they are will drive you crazy. :eek: It's all about synergy/compatibility and sometimes logical changes don't give you the results you expect. I still believe the transport has the least amount of effect in a cdp. Much larger gains can be made elsewhere in the actual unit to achieve top notch results. I was just throwing out some thoughts for discussion. And am glad at the great responses I've gotten so far.

Steveinaz wrote:

Heiney9 is dead-on balls accurate with the error correction scheme. The ONLY form of audible error correction is muting; the most drastic, such as when a disc skips or refuses to be read at all.

I can't begin to understand why different transports would sound differently, or why a Toslink connection sounds different from a coax. I think it has to be something related to the external DAC input circuitry, NOT the output used. For example, my AES/EBU output/input sounds smoother than my coax output/input (CD to DAC)., and it's not subtle. Maybe the AES/EBU input on the DAC has better circuitry? I don't know, that **** over my head...

Well said and I concur....I so much of a nerd that I've actually be researching the lineage of DAC chip sets over the years to understand the improvements made from the 1986 Burr Brown PCM 54hp chipset in my Nak to the Burr Brown PCM 63 chipset in my newer Nak to the Burr Brown PCM 1702 in the Adcom Dac. It's quite facinating and at the same time over my head. Trying to understand why/how they act differently. There are newer ones yet!

Crap...I've really taken this thing way off topic

H9

heiney9 · August 2005

madmax wrote:

If that tray vibrates a lot it can cause the disc and attached mechanisms to vibrate. Each is a little piece of the puzzle. Not all manufacturers consider each piece either.

I just don't see from an engineering POV how a bit of vibration is going to alter/degrade the sound coming from the digital stream being read by the laser. There are many more detrimental things going on when the laser is tracking the disc (that have nothing to do with the transport) than a small amount of vibration and those things don't seem to have any affect because mostly they're uncontrollable and designed to be compensated for.

I do agree that it has to be the sum of the parts, but I just don't see anything in the mechanical transport that has to be military grade in order for it to perform flawlessly, let alone have audible differences between other mechanical transports. The actual transport is a very simple concept. The implementation of getting the data off the disc is the complicated/complex part of the equation. Once the disc is stable and spinning at the correct speed the transport is done doing its job. After that the optics and electronics take over.

<shruggs shoulders>

H9

steveinaz · August 2005

I'll tell you what fellers, I'm gonna hook up my cheeseball $129 panny again to my benchmark DAC via toslink for a week, in an attempt to get rid of the placebo effect (hell I'm old, I'll forget by tommorrow I switched it..LOL) and see If I detect something sounding different.

I've got a very sharp ear, when I-SIG and I were A/B'ing the Benchmark and Bel Canto DAC2 I caught a difference in sound that Wes initially didn't hear. Once I pointed it out, he agreed there was a difference, albeit very subtle. It was the "hand clapping" on Incubus "Are you in?" On the Bel Canto the hand clapping was ever so slightly higher in pitch---and I mean slight---but audible. Keep in mind Wes' ears are about 17 years "younger" than mine.

BTW, that was the ONLY difference we could hear after about 3 hrs of listening to tons of different music between the 2 DAC's.

I have noticed that treble sounds a touch more refined and smooth thru my CEC's AES/EBU connection--maybe I'm just full of ****??

This digital theory crap gives me a headache...

cfrizz · August 2005

Thank you heiney9. That was a very thorough albiet headache inducing read.

However I have one question. My Rotel 1072 has a little light that goes on with all of my burnt cd's & sometimes with some of my store redbook cd's. It says Over. What does that mean?

reeltrouble1 · August 2005

jdhdiggs wrote:

Nerd!

Good One JD!!! ROFLMFAO

Good Sense of Humor we all need it H9.

Jitter, why on the fence, a perfectly square wave for the laser to read is from everything I read not yet obtainable. So they get a bit rounded causing this "jitter" (the change from 1 to 0 ) then dither noise is added. Seems simple enough to me :eek:.

Peersall,

I can certainly understand the disappointment of a piece not meeting expectations or sounding as planned. But you have to have things, to try things. I have just bought a parasound dac to give it a try, just have to see for myself.

Believe this is definetely an example of how a collection of interdependant parts work together to form a system. Changes in any area to a part affect the system, concluding no one part of any system holds more importance over another to that system. Furthermore, each audio system is as unique as we are despite sharing supposed identical parts. ie You hear what you hear my man.

RT1

LuSh · August 2005

You should give the DAC some time to break in. When I was using a NAD 541i CD player then used a Museatex DAC, I had the Museatex hooked up for a week. All I did was listen to music in that week. Not once did I A/B. Audio memory is LONG term not short. After that week I hooked up the NAD again and heard the scope and scale of music shrink. It wasn't as natural. I could locate the sound back to the speaker again. Things like treble and bass remained the same but decay, imaging, and natural feeling were gone.

My current DAC has been sent to John Wright again, and I'm in agony. I've been using a Toshiba DVD player the last month. Oh it's so painfull. I dont listen to music nearly as much. Usually when I'm doing other things around my place. I haven't had a beer and "sat down" for over a month. DAC's will make a difference. I have not personally heard the Benchmark, I opt'd to go with the Museatex because of performance and reviews from people I trust. I can say though that the Benchmark from what I've read is a very capable DAC but like all digital upgrades takes time. Sound isn't as colored from Digital as say speakers. Upgrades take time to determine. I suggest using a week or two to figure out your next upgrade.

heiney9 · August 2005

cfrizz wrote:

Thank you heiney9. That was a very thorough albiet headache inducing read.

However I have one question. My Rotel 1072 has a little light that on sometimes with all of my burnt cd's & with some of my store redbook cd's. It says Over. What does that mean?

Actually I'm on the floor convulsing right now becasue I think a series of errant synapses fried my brain.... Seriously I have no idea what that red light might be for. Does the manual say anything? Some cdp's use a red light to let you know when the internal clock has locked in the sampling frequency. Other than that I have no idea, not familiar with Rotel models. Maybe someone else can chime in.

reeltrouble1 wrote:

Good One JD!!! ROFLMFAO

Good Sense of Humor we all need it H9.

Jitter, why on the fence, a perfectly square wave for the laser to read is from everything I read not yet obtainable. So they get a bit rounded causing this "jitter" (the change from 1 to 0 ) then dither noise is added. Seems simple enough to me

I like to think I have a good sense of humor

besides where would the world be without a little nerdiness once in a while...not admitting to anything, however

Ah ha...you thought you were going to 'reel' me on the subject of jitter...I'm not going there, we'd all be dead becasue our brains would short out after the explaination!

.

Steve, give it a good go as I might do the same with my el cheapo Pioneer DVD vs. my Nak although the Nak isn't what most would consider a high end transport...so maybe I'll nix that idea. I have them both hooked up thru the Adcom and use both pretty regularly. I don't play cdr's in the Nak becasue they give her some trouble occasionally. I play cdr's in the DVD player thru the Dac. I honestly have never been able to tell a diff. between the two when listening to reg cd's in each unit. Never really done a scientific experiment though. (btw-these aren't the same units I'm trying to repair; unsucessfully)

Lush, Good point....you don't know what an impact it has until it's gone for a while. I do that occasionally becasue sometimes I get bored with the sound. Take the Dac out for about 2 days and am amazed by the difference. I don't do that so much anymore. Also in my computer rig I am able to switch via. the reciever between the output from the Dac and the output from the sound card for comparison. There is no comparison....the sound card sounds like...well, a cheap sound card.

H9

Emlyn · August 2005

cfrizz wrote:

Thank you heiney9. That was a very thorough albiet headache inducing read.

However I have one question. My Rotel 1072 has a little light that goes on with all of my burnt cd's & sometimes with some of my store redbook cd's. It says Over. What does that mean?

Usually means the CD loaded has "over" 20 tracks on it, that won't display in the limited space on the screen.

madmax · August 2005

heiney9 wrote:

Ok...I'm going to get in trouble here but this is what I believe......I'm not completely convinced that the transport makes all that much difference in the sound quality. Sure an el cheapo player vs. a well built unit...maybe. What is it about a transport that makes everyone think they sound different?
H9

Lets forget about all the previous dribble you wrote. (even though I enjoyed it.

)

The electronics you were speaking of (making the difference) is part of the transport, not the DAC. I thought that was misleading considering this is a discussion of a DAC and how a transport may or may not make a difference.

So, saying the transport shouldn't really make a difference, its the electronics, isn't really true because a transport consists of a drive and electronics for the drive. The DAC is seperate.

madmax

steveinaz · August 2005

Emlyn wrote:

Usually means the CD loaded has "over" 20 tracks on it, that won't display in the limited space on the screen.

We have a winnah!!!! Ed Zachary.

reeltrouble1 · August 2005

Steve and Emlyn,

Thanks for the info guys on the AES/BUS, I just picked up a parasound ultra 2000 off the Gon to try out. Of course now I need a transport/player.

CFrizz,

Over 20 makes more sense than "oversampling" especially since I see the light is intermintent, except are all your burnt cd over 20 tunes?

RT1

heiney9 · August 2005

madmax wrote:

Lets forget about all the previous dribble you wrote. (even though I enjoyed it. )

The electronics you were speaking of (making the difference) is part of the transport, not the DAC. I thought that was misleading considering this is a discussion of a DAC and how a transport may or may not make a difference.

So, saying the transport shouldn't really make a difference, its the electronics, isn't really true because a transport consists of a drive and electronics for the drive. The DAC is seperate.

madmax

I guess we will get into semantics here...

My interpretation of the transport is the mechanism (mechanical part) not the associated electronics like motors, servo control, optics...etc. The same mechanical transport with better electronics might sound better.

I really am not trying to split hairs I'm trying to let you know where I'm coming from. So some may not agree becasue they feel the transport is eveything except the Dac circuit. But there are so many more area's in a well designed cdp other than the transport and dac. So if your idea of the transport is the mechanical parts plus the optic and electrical then YES, a difference might heard (although I'm not convinced). There still are only about 20 or less manufactures of the actual optics...so there isn't much variation there. Certainly some quality control issues to deal with. I also don't see anything in the design of the optics that really makes a diff sound wise. The optics ARE NOT like the difference's in cartridges for TT. The optics must operates within certain parameters in order to function and read the data.....no more no less. Cheaper transport parts may affect reliability but I'm not convinced it will affect sound quality.

H9

cfrizz · August 2005

No 20 is just about the max that I can fit on the disks that I burn. So what does oversampling mean?

steveinaz · August 2005

reeltrouble1 wrote:

Steve and Emlyn,

Thanks for the info guys on the AES/BUS, I just picked up a parasound ultra 2000 off the Gon to try out. Of course now I need a transport/player.

Now the tough part...finding an realtively inexpensive transport with aes/ebu. I got lucky with my CEC having it at only $600 bones.

steveinaz · August 2005

cfrizz wrote:

No 20 is just about the max that I can fit on the disks that I burn. So what does oversampling mean?

I CAN answer this one....I "oversampled" the baked chicken my wife made last night, and paid dearly for it. It's something like that.

madmax · August 2005

heiney9 wrote:

So some may not agree becasue they feel the transport is eveything except the Dac circuit. H9

That is pretty much the description of a transport given a two piece system, which we are talking about. My latest DAC/ transport uses a cable other than a simple RCA which is a bummer because I would love to try the dac with my old sony, luxman and of course the cream of the crop, the toshiba 3960!

So, just on the physical mechanism itself, I found significant differences after working on both the 3960 and the Theta transport. All I did was to remove the transports, take blu-tac and stuff in every avaliable location including the bottom under the tray and place a piece of dynamat under the drive. Apparently a little vibration at the wrong frequency does have an audible effect. In both units it lessoned the treble harshness which is normally attributed to jitter.

madmax

ND13 · August 2005

Emlyn wrote:

Usually means the CD loaded has "over" 20 tracks on it, that won't display in the limited space on the screen.

Cathy,

Emlyn is correct. My AMC does the same thing.

heiney9 · August 2005

cfrizz wrote:

No 20 is just about the max that I can fit on the disks that I burn. So what does oversampling mean?

Oh Cfrizz....let's save that for another day

Actually I started this whole discussion and my brain truely does hurt

But I promise if you really want an explaination I will get back to it, perhaps tomorrow. It's not complicated just time consuming to explain.

Madmaxyou make a good observation about your Theta vs. the Tosh, I have nothing to dispute it. As far as the a 2 piece system....that's an over simplification of the concept. There are still other numerous stages the data/signal pass thru that can muck it up. I have (2) Dac's one fairly cheap unit in the AMC Dac8 and a more expensive Adcom. From a design standpoint the Adcom is excellent compared to the AMC. A world of diff in sound and while they use slightly diff chipset there are many other numerious reasons the Adcom sounds better. So to me it's more complicated than just the transport and dac (being the actual chipset). But I do get your drift in the sense that those two pieces mated together make the whole. There are several other stages in the Adcom that cause it to sound so much better. Really by today's standards the Adcom is a bit outdated, not sure if that means the newer stuff is better sounding; however.

That's it... I'm going to sit outside at my favorite watering hole and enjoy a few to get ready for the weekend

Bye for now...

H9

reeltrouble1 · August 2005

H9,

I pm'd Cfrizz a response on oversampling, you know, under 500 words!!

She will get the drift but heck man have at it.

RT1

Benchmark DAC1 - VERY DISAPPOINTED!

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