New to me SRS 2s

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,655
    edited November 15
    The increased damping factor massively cleaned up my bass response
    The damping factor has nothing to do with it. The performance difference between a damping factor of 50 and 1000 is laughable. In fact, to obtain a high damping factor generally requires a ton of negative feedback, which is not a good thing.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

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  • Striker2237
    Striker2237 Posts: 115
    F1nut wrote: »
    The increased damping factor massively cleaned up my bass response
    The damping factor has nothing to do with it. The performance difference between a damping factor of 50 and 1000 is laughable. In fact, to obtain a high damping factor generally requires a ton of negative feedback, which is not a good thing.

    I don't see what else it can be, there are not any other major spec changes.

    The precision of the bass greatly changed and is much tighter and I didn't replace or move anything else. I don't have resonance in the room anymore at prior trouble frequencies

    2 channel: MXN10, Anthem MRX740, Anthem MCA5, SDA1c recap/RDO, JL Fathom F112V2, Tributaries series 8A, Tara labs RSC

    Theater: Above plus Paradigm reference studio 100, Polk FX300i

    Projects: SRS1.2TL, SRS 2, M5Jr+

    Party/1st floor: iPad, Marantz SR5005, Paradigm reference S100v2, monster bulk cable

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,655
    Specs do not tell you the circuit topology, component choices or a host of other aspects that make up an amplifier.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,655
    A bit more...
    So what is damping factor? In simple terms, it’s a ratio. Specifically, it compares the impedance of a loudspeaker (usually around 4 to 8 ohms) to the output impedance of the amplifier. If the amplifier has a very low output impedance, the ratio is high, which in theory gives the amp greater ability to “damp” or control the motion of the speaker driver. That control should matter most in the bass, where large cones continue to move after the electrical signal has stopped.

    This concept leads to the assumption that higher damping factors always equal better bass. You’ll see amplifiers advertised with damping factors in the hundreds or even thousands, implying iron-fisted control over woofers. The truth, however, is more complicated. Once an amplifier reaches a damping factor of about 20 to 50, the benefits level off. Beyond that point, the resistance of the speaker’s voice coil, crossover components, and even the cables dominate the equation. Whether the amplifier’s spec says 100 or 1000, the speaker sees little difference.

    That’s why amplifiers with wildly different damping factor ratings can sound remarkably similar in terms of bass control. What matters more is the amplifier’s overall ability to deliver current cleanly into a load.

    Stability, headroom, and the quality of the power supply all play larger roles than chasing astronomical damping factor figures. A modestly rated amplifier with good design can sound tighter and more convincing than one with a sky-high damping spec but compromised execution elsewhere.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,439
    F1nut wrote: »
    The increased damping factor massively cleaned up my bass response
    The damping factor has nothing to do with it. The performance difference between a damping factor of 50 and 1000 is laughable. In fact, to obtain a high damping factor generally requires a ton of negative feedback, which is not a good thing.

    I agree, damping factor is worthless spec most of the time, power supply has more to do with the bass performance.
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  • Striker2237
    Striker2237 Posts: 115
    edited November 16
    These use the same power supplies so I'm legitimacy curious why I gained so much more control. The claimed differences are the A5 has higher grade and matched caps/board components and removes fuses from the design.

    Details and clarity on the mids/highs was expected but the specs would lead me to have expected as much so I want shocked.
    2 channel: MXN10, Anthem MRX740, Anthem MCA5, SDA1c recap/RDO, JL Fathom F112V2, Tributaries series 8A, Tara labs RSC

    Theater: Above plus Paradigm reference studio 100, Polk FX300i

    Projects: SRS1.2TL, SRS 2, M5Jr+

    Party/1st floor: iPad, Marantz SR5005, Paradigm reference S100v2, monster bulk cable

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,655
    edited November 16
    The damping factor difference between the 2 amps appears to be 60, so absolutely nothing there.

    The max power consumption of the MCA is 1200 while the A5 is 1800. So, the power supply sections are not the same and therefore at least part of reason for the difference you are hearing.

    If you don't have the A5 on a dedicated 10 gauge 20 amp line, you really should.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Striker2237
    Striker2237 Posts: 115
    It's 110 vs 360

    g0cfyjd1ce11.jpeg

    I don't know what it is but I prefer it over the MC402!
    2 channel: MXN10, Anthem MRX740, Anthem MCA5, SDA1c recap/RDO, JL Fathom F112V2, Tributaries series 8A, Tara labs RSC

    Theater: Above plus Paradigm reference studio 100, Polk FX300i

    Projects: SRS1.2TL, SRS 2, M5Jr+

    Party/1st floor: iPad, Marantz SR5005, Paradigm reference S100v2, monster bulk cable

    B&O H9 Gen3
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,655
    edited November 18
    Wait, you previously stated, "I picked up a mint Anthem A5 to swap out the MCA I was using" and your photo shows a silver faced Anthem. So, why are you now saying it's a McIntosh 402???

    BTW, the Anthem MCA 225, 325 and 525 damping factor is 300.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Striker2237
    Striker2237 Posts: 115
    edited November 18
    F1nut wrote: »
    Wait, you previously stated, "I picked up a mint Anthem A5 to swap out the MCA I was using" and your photo shows a silver faced Anthem. So, why are you now saying it's a McIntosh 402???

    BTW, the Anthem MCA 225, 325 and 525 damping factor is 300.

    Well if you looked at my pictures of my theater room setup you would see my old anthem is not an MCA XX5 series, it's a first pattern 1999.5 amp with far worse specs. The A5 has specs that are better than the current XX5 gen 2 amps and is why I selected it vs those.

    I had the MCA on my 1Cs because they didn't have any low end control with other amps I had on hand so I temporarily threw the HT amp at them, it worked/sounded/measured surprisingly well so I decided to pursue that type of amp for my SDAs in general.

    I have multiple rooms setup and I'm moving the new A5 around, downstairs I had the MCA5 that I wanted to replace with the A5 but I tried it out today on the 1.2TLs that were using the the MC402. The whole new gear wanting to try it on all the systems craze phase etc....

    The A5 in that system is a hell of a lot tighter, cleaner, faster, and more detailed than the McIntosh. The whole reason I bought it was specially because I noticed the low damping factor amps didn't play well with any of the SDA stuff I have, I will very likely get a Classe Delta for the 1.2TL system because of the results of testing.

    The 1.2s are amazingly good speakers in terms of presentation and dynamics, I was unsure if I would like it due to tweeter hight but the higher placement absolutely works for me.
    2 channel: MXN10, Anthem MRX740, Anthem MCA5, SDA1c recap/RDO, JL Fathom F112V2, Tributaries series 8A, Tara labs RSC

    Theater: Above plus Paradigm reference studio 100, Polk FX300i

    Projects: SRS1.2TL, SRS 2, M5Jr+

    Party/1st floor: iPad, Marantz SR5005, Paradigm reference S100v2, monster bulk cable

    B&O H9 Gen3
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,861
    Your difference in the damping factor with the MCA50 and the A5 are negligible and there's no way you'd be able to tell the difference. The increase in the slew rate with the A5 on the other hand would be noticable though. Bob Carver said once that he liked to design his amps to have a slew rate of at least 50.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,655
    Well if you looked at my pictures of my theater room setup you would see my old anthem is not an MCA XX5 series, it's a first pattern 1999.5 amp with far worse specs.

    I can't make out the model of your amps because they aren't clear enough in your photos and you're jumping around a lot with halfa$$ descriptions. So, do us a favor and provide the full and correct make/model of whatever it is you're referring to from now on.

    SDA speakers like high current amplification. Full stop.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Striker2237
    Striker2237 Posts: 115
    I am reminded why I don't bother posting here much
    2 channel: MXN10, Anthem MRX740, Anthem MCA5, SDA1c recap/RDO, JL Fathom F112V2, Tributaries series 8A, Tara labs RSC

    Theater: Above plus Paradigm reference studio 100, Polk FX300i

    Projects: SRS1.2TL, SRS 2, M5Jr+

    Party/1st floor: iPad, Marantz SR5005, Paradigm reference S100v2, monster bulk cable

    B&O H9 Gen3
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,655
    edited November 19
    Striker2237 wrote: »
    I am reminded why I don't bother posting here much

    Because you can't articulate your thoughts or post clear photos you're going to try and blame others, especially me!?!

    Sorry I tried to help you, it won't happen again...LISTED!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,439
    Once again it has nothing to do with the damping factor, my Krell amp has a damping factor of 120 and my old adcom has a damping factor of 900, the Krell is so much better in every way. The McIntosh has autoformers which could be the difference in sound.
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  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,045
    Damp the rhetoric, fellas. :D
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
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  • motorstereo
    motorstereo Posts: 2,317
    I agree; df is a meaningless spec. I've memorized most of the other specs on my Mac amps but never paid any attention to the df. It's only 100 (just looked it up) but there's no shortage of quality bass on the 1.2tls. As mentioned already high current is the spec you should be concerned with.
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  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,439
    Damping factor doesn't make any difference mostly because the resistance in the speaker cables, binding posts, crossover, wiring within the cabinet, and voice coils all have far more resistance.
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  • Gardenstater
    Gardenstater Posts: 4,719
    invalid wrote: »
    Damping factor doesn't make any difference mostly because the resistance in the speaker cables, binding posts, crossover, wiring within the cabinet, and voice coils all have far more resistance.

    I'm sure you aren't saying that it doesn't make ANY difference because speaker wire plays a part in effective Damping Factor. That would be an invalid argument, without quantifying the relative effects of the two (amplifier df and speaker wire resistance). There are calculators for this online. If you have a 100W amplifier with a DF of 50 and 14awg 5ft long speaker wire, the effective DF is brought down to 43.2, which is a reduction of 13.6%. If you have the same but DF of amplifier is 100, the speaker wire brings the DF down to 76, which is a reduction of 24%.
    George / NJ

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  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,439
    edited November 21
    It doesn't make a difference as long as the damping factor is at least 20. You will not hear any difference if all other things are equal.
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  • Gardenstater
    Gardenstater Posts: 4,719
    edited November 21
    invalid wrote: »
    It doesn't make a difference as long as the damping factor is at least 20. You will not hear any difference if all other things are equal.

    What about effective Damping Factor? After all you brought up how resistance is related. So, If I have a 85W amp with a damping factor of 50 and 5 ft. of 14 awg speaker wire I get effective Damping Factor of 43.2.

    If I change out the speaker wire to save money to 23.7 awg wire I will reduce the effective Damping Factor to 20.2. I wouldn't have any reduction in bass that would be noticeable because of your guidance of greater than 20 makes no difference, correct?
    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Onkyo A-8017 integrated
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
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  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,439
    edited November 21
    We are talking about damping factor of amplifiers, which don't make much if any difference after about 20. The benefits plateau once the amplifier's output impedance is much lower than the total impedance of the speaker's voice coil, crossover, and connecting wires.
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  • Gardenstater
    Gardenstater Posts: 4,719
    edited November 21
    How much lower? And what about Effective Damping Factor change due to my above example of using skinny speaker wires? That makes the amplifier's output impedance even more relatively lower than the total impedance of the speaker's voice coil, crossover, and connecting wires. That example above was for my setup. Are you telling me that I can go to approx. 24 awg speaker wires and I will not hear any sacrifice to bass quality in my system with an effective damping factor of 20 ?

    Calculator at the bottom of this page:

    https://www.bcae1.com/dampfact.htm

    PS: I don't think it is a ratio thing at all and the load is separate entity from the amplifier plus cables and is what is driven and needs tight control. The higher the output impedance the lower the damping factor of the amplifier (and vice versa). The lower the impedance of the speaker cables, the less they adversely they effect the total effective damping factor. Raising the impedance of the cables will just make it harder to control the load. Also you can see from that calculator that it is harder to control a lower impedance speaker load, ie. lowering the impedance of the load lowers the effective damping factor.
    Post edited by Gardenstater on
    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Onkyo A-8017 integrated
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
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  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,439
    I give up you just don't understand.
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  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,045
    d7wphomo5e4f.jpg
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
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  • Striker2237
    Striker2237 Posts: 115
    edited November 26
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    Got everything for these in, I'll post more pictures of the instal process later for those who care.

    Huge thanks to VR3 for the awesome work and packaging job! I'm very excited to hear the system after all the changes



    As for the conversation of damping factor I'll just go with what the research papers say and what I hear. I don't care what anyone else does in that regard but I know what amps have greater detail and how they measured in the same room with no other changes. Facts don't care about feeling or misconceptions
    2 channel: MXN10, Anthem MRX740, Anthem MCA5, SDA1c recap/RDO, JL Fathom F112V2, Tributaries series 8A, Tara labs RSC

    Theater: Above plus Paradigm reference studio 100, Polk FX300i

    Projects: SRS1.2TL, SRS 2, M5Jr+

    Party/1st floor: iPad, Marantz SR5005, Paradigm reference S100v2, monster bulk cable

    B&O H9 Gen3
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  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,439
    What research papers?
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  • Gardenstater
    Gardenstater Posts: 4,719
    edited November 27
    So called experts always disagree on this stuff. Pick your expert. I found this paper from Benchmark that makes perfect sense to me and says that frequency response variations can be heard even at total system damping factor of 100, by people with golden ears in A/B/X comparisons. In fact 0.1dB is usually the goal where you can say below that nobody will be able to hear. Even system DF of 100 can produce 0.2dB variation.

    But anyway, here ya go invalid. Have a nice Thanksgiving read, even though you know that the rest of us simply don't understand: https://device.report/m/3dd46e6d759f4e9cc23d6eb6d0e4c0842085bd90975c50853f11b41573ba1345.pdf
    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Onkyo A-8017 integrated
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
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  • skipshot12
    skipshot12 Posts: 1,772
    Reckon I'm good with my DF of 1000 PL 700 and 8' 7 gauge Monster Sigmas 😬
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  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,439
    This is what Nelson Pass had to say
    Damping factor is kind of an odd thing. It does correlate
    loosely to woofer control, but there are too many examples
    which don't support a cause and effect relationship.

    The X amps we sell have a wide range of damping factors,
    with the cheaper amps having better numbers (due to
    feedback around the output stage) and the bigger amps
    having lower DF, and yet there is no question that the
    bigger amps have more authority and control, even at
    modest power levels.
    Floyd Toole also wrote a paper on damping factor, and came to the conclusion that a damping factor of 20 is plenty.
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