David Chesky on "ringing"

Here is a quote I found on the 'GoN that I found to be very interesting.
The World is a Bell, and it wants to RING!

Walk up to a piano, strike a single key, and listen closely. What you hear is not just a note — it’s a sympathetic vibration, a resonance that arises because the string naturally wants to vibrate at its fundamental frequency. The same happens with a guitar, a drum, a wine glass, or even a sheet of metal. Everything in our physical world has a resonant frequency, a natural mode of vibration, a note it wants to sing. The universe is, quite literally, a concert of ringing.

Audio reproduction is no different.

Your loudspeaker box is the most obvious example — a large resonant cavity with panels that flex and radiate sound in unintended ways. But it's not just the box. Your amplifier chassis, your cables, your digital-to-analog converter (DAC), even the circuit boards and power transformers — everything vibrates, and thus everything rings.

This became viscerally apparent to me recently in the studio while comparing linear-phase equalizers to minimum-phase EQs. Set to identical filter shapes, the sonic difference was striking. Linear-phase filters preserve phase relationships across the spectrum but introduce pre-ringing artifacts — a kind of temporal smear that occurs before the transient. Minimum-phase filters, by contrast, do all their damage after the transient, creating post-ringing that, while technically less "accurate," can feel more musically natural to the ear.

The ear can hear this ringing — not as an overt tone, but as a kind of blur, a clouding of the leading edge of a note, an inability to localize or feel immediacy. And this is just from a software filter. Now imagine the cumulative effect of every physical object in the playback chain doing its own version of ringing, from capacitors to cables, from enclosures to air gaps.

This may also explain why people still love vinyl. LP playback is, from a technical standpoint, riddled with flaws — mechanical noise, surface wear, channel crosstalk, limited dynamic range. And yet, it's emotionally engaging. Why?

Because analog never stops ringing. The cartridge, the stylus, the cantilever, the headshell, and the tonearm are all mechanical resonators that don't just start and stop. They sing along with the music. They fill in the gaps — not with data, but with sympathetic overtones and a kind of musical sugar that pleases the brain. There's a reason maple syrup and salt taste good together in the morning: we crave harmonic density. LPs, in a sense, continue the sound beyond the note — a sonic metaphor for warmth, continuity, and presence.

So what is accurate?

That’s the philosophical core of this discussion. You can measure a flat frequency response, perfect impulse behavior, or total harmonic distortion below 0.0001%. But no measurement can capture the cumulative psychoacoustic impact of all the materials, mechanics, and algorithms in your playback chain. The ringing, the resonance, the interactions — they are systemic and emergent, not linear or isolated.

The signal is not the music. The music is what happens after the signal passes through your chain of resonating objects and arrives in your emotionally perceptive brain.

So the question is not merely what is accurate, but rather:
What is beautiful? What is meaningful? What moves you?
Because in the end, the world is a bell — and it wants to ring.

- David Chesky

Every once in a while, the 'GoN will have something that actually interests me and this particular post that was presented by someone else, included this quote from Chesky. I found it intriguing. It is kind of hard to put your finger on why vinyl has a different, pleasing sound to it over other sources (besides maybe RTR). It's kind of hard to describe why I like that "bell", as you all call it, sitting right in front of my rig.

What he says here, might just touch on why. This is an open ended discussion and going off topic, while staying somewhat on topic is welcome. He hits on many different points here.

Joshua, at JMW Acoustics kinda has the same philosophy. While Magico goes to one end of the spectrum to reduce or eliminate all ringing in their speakers, Josh is the exact opposite. He wants to hear the ringing. He wants to tune his speakers to the drivers, to include the ringing....and that's how he designs and voices his speakers. Maybe this is why those who listen to his speakers like them so much. They are not fatiguing at all, even at loud volumes, after hours and hours of listening.

What are your thoughts?

Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~

Comments

  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,655
    There's no end to the audiophile insanity.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • CoolJazz
    CoolJazz Posts: 572
    So Tom, look at it from the other end of the system too.

    What about those that seek the highest dampening numbers. And drivers that have stiff suspensions. A lot of people seem to think that you should like the very abbreviated sound of a woofer that goes 'thwak' on a drum hit and stop dead. Ever listen to big drum when it gets a quick, hard strike?

    Wouldn't the natural ring of a piano or guitar string and it's natural resonances that follow the main note have a tendency to get cutoff if your amplifier and driver arrangement unnaturally curtail the ringing that follows in the original environment?

    And note that changing even the speaker cable length could play into the final resonance, or not, of what we get on playback. I suspect far more goes on at that end of the chain with greater variance between our various systems than we know. So much more to great playback than just S/N and flatness of response!

    I've spent years with those thoughts about the end of the playback chain results and how it plays into the naturalness of the most correct playback. It may well be why we tend to seek out those better recordings, like the Chesky's, that have the sense to pay attention to and include the natural reverberate field of the original instruments.

    CJ

    PS...Jesse, leave the insanity wing for those of us that qualify to live in that area. B)
    A so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."

    More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping."
  • newbie308
    newbie308 Posts: 800
    I remember, not too long ago, we were all wrapping our driver baskets with Dynamat in order to diminish the ringing, and touting the improvement in clarity and separation of instruments. I guess I lean towards the Magico philosophy of minimizing resonance.
    Enjoying the journey while never attaining the destination.
  • daddyjt
    daddyjt Posts: 3,028
    CoolJazz wrote: »
    So Tom, look at it from the other end of the system too.

    What about those that seek the highest dampening numbers. And drivers that have stiff suspensions. A lot of people seem to think that you should like the very abbreviated sound of a woofer that goes 'thwak' on a drum hit and stop dead. Ever listen to big drum when it gets a quick, hard strike?

    You don’t want the woofer cone mimicking the drum skin in the manner you describe, because the woofer is being supplied the signal to play the decaying movement of the drum skin by the signal chain. If the woofer mimics that on its own, that will result in substantial distortion as it also receives the signal.
    “Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free.”
    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,942
    CoolJazz wrote: »
    Wouldn't the natural ring of a piano or guitar string and it's natural resonances that follow the main note have a tendency to get cutoff if your amplifier and driver arrangement unnaturally curtail the ringing that follows in the original environment?

    I would assume so. Throughout my audio journey, gear or speakers that do this has always come and gone quickly. I've posted about this since I became a member of online forums. I don't ever want to hear the "tst, tst, tst" of a cymbal. That's not natural or enjoyable at all, even though many systems I have heard in my travels do just this. I want to hear the initial strike, with all of the natural roll off that comes with it, no matter how long that roll off is.

    Same with a guitar. I not only want to hear the strike of the cord, but also the reverb of said cord as it resounds within the body of the guitar, and the natural echo that comes with it. It's aura. In other words, I want to not only hear the strike, I want to hear the body of the guitar as well. With all of it's natural beauty.
    CoolJazz wrote: »
    What about those that seek the highest dampening numbers. And drivers that have stiff suspensions. A lot of people seem to think that you should like the very abbreviated sound of a woofer that goes 'thwak' on a drum hit and stop dead. Ever listen to big drum when it gets a quick, hard strike?

    Same philosophy here. A quick whack or thud isn't musical. When this happens, it kills the dynamics of the strike and sounds rather dull. While no stereo system will ever sound exactly like a drum, there are differing sounds after said initial strike.

    What should be discernible is the initial attack followed by the tone of the drum itself. This can change whether the drum is hit in the center or more towards the sides of the drum itself. Then you should hear the overtones, which add character to the drum's sound, followed by the sustain of the strike itself, which varies with the drum's characteristics and pitch.

    I prefer to have all of these sounds when listening, not ever just a "thump" or "whack". That's boring. A great system should be able to do all of the aforementioned with clarity and no hint of breakup, with all of it's natural "ringing" and resonances. It should also be able to do this no matter how busy the passage.

    To a point. What I mean by that is, in small ensembles, one should be able to clearly hear everything with each instrument. But when you get a big band or orchestra going, the individual instruments form a cohesive sound, and you will not hear the individualness of each instrument.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • CoolJazz
    CoolJazz Posts: 572
    daddyjt wrote: »

    You don’t want the woofer cone mimicking the drum skin in the manner you describe, because the woofer is being supplied the signal to play the decaying movement of the drum skin by the signal chain. If the woofer mimics that on its own, that will result in substantial distortion as it also receives the signal.

    I am not referring to a woofer adding addition sound. Just that it doesn't attenuate the natural decay of the skin. IE...low level info disappearing post note stuff. (A specialty of some redbook digital.) Over damped drivers are pretty common and just don't let the music come through. But some like it...

    Letting through all the music is the a big difference between high efficiency drivers and the normal gotta-light-em-up-with-monster-power type speakers.

    CJ
    A so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."

    More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping."
  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 5,045
    F1nut wrote: »
    There's no end to the audiophile insanity.

    So, you finally got around to foamin' your baskets?
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
  • skipshot12
    skipshot12 Posts: 1,769
    Two different mechanisms, one is made to create the other is made to re-create.

    Musical instruments are built with resonance in mind, it's why they're designed and built in the shape they're in.

    If one wanted to be exact on the re-creation of each instrument's sound then we would have to make a speaker for each instrument and design it in a way that would be close to the shape of that instrument.

    What it comes down to is a trade-off of sorts.
    Obviously, if you wanted to re-create an exact representation of sound coming from a full orchestra one would need to build a speaker system that mimics the shapes of each instrument, the distances between each, height of each... then one would need to create the listening space plus listening position and so on..........................
    A nightmare to say the least.

    I think what speakers do in trying to recreate the sounds of each instrument, attack, decay and overall sense of where is just amazing to me.

    My opinion.
  • jdjohn
    jdjohn Posts: 3,315
    Sometimes, a recording itself has resonances that aren't really pleasant, and can make you think there's a problem with your system. For example, the amplification from an electric bass guitar can make the wires on the bottom of a snare drum vibrate, and create a rather unpleasant resonance. Live recordings are more susceptible to this.

    A good example of this is in the live version of "Tin Pan Alley", by SRV. In the left channel, you can hear an almost constant sizzle of the snare drum wires resonating. The drummer is primarily only doing rim shots on the edge of the snare drum, which allows the sizzle of the wires to come through more than if he were hitting the drum head itself. The bassist is doing a slow walking line with very few breaks, so the vibration is pretty constant. That's what I hear, at least. The first time I noticed this, I thought I had a problem with a driver in my left speaker, but after listening through headphones, I realized it is in the recording itself.
    "This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
    "Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
    Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon
  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,614
    True. A stereo speaker system ultimately just presents an illusion at the sweet spot in a listening room of what came into recording microphones and was afterwards manipulated multiple steps during the recording and production process and then played back through different media, electronics, and cables.

    Most speakers are built with resonance in mind to produce sound that the designer/engineers wanted to have within price constraints. For example, Spendor speakers have deliberately resonant wood cabinets because that's part of their intended character. In effect the speakers are just another musical instrument in a long chain.