The dumbest audio-related claims you’ve heard.
daddyjt
Posts: 3,028
I was having a discussion on another forum about how impressed I am with the sound out of my repaired Levinson amp, when some guy wades in and says “all amplifiers sound the same, as long as the output power and distortion numbers are similar…” There was a time when I would have argued the point, but I’ve learned there just isn’t much use in trying to educate the willfully ignorant.
What are some of the most ignorant claims you’ve heard? (Besides “cables don’t matter”, lol)
What are some of the most ignorant claims you’ve heard? (Besides “cables don’t matter”, lol)
“Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free.”
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Comments
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These "all sound the same" types are simply jealous that people have things they can only dream about,,,Post edited by nooshinjohn onThe Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it? -
You need an amp with a high damping factor... ummm, nope.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I'm being truthful when I say I could easily compile a list from myself from my early days in this hobby; live and learn.
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Bon Jovi sounds good.
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That speakers put out watts. Something along the lines of "your bookshelf speakers put out 50 watts, my Cerwin Vegas put out 200 watts". This comment is made regardless of reciever output. As if the speakers are putting out the watts not the amplifier/the receiver.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul! -
Digital audio is just ones and zeroes.
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motorstereo wrote: »I'm being truthful when I say I could easily compile a list from myself from my early days in this hobby; live and learn.
Yea, I too cringe a bit when I consider some of my firmly held beliefs during my early years in this hobby.“Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free.”
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn -
Digital audio is just ones and zeroes.
Took the words right out of my mouth. That's the one that really gets my goat. Not that I really care if someone thinks that or not, it's just that it is these types of folks who are seemingly the most vocal about their point of view. They don't seem to want to accept any other point of view. They kind of remind me of the Ethernet cable guys.....you know the type.....they can't make a difference because it's all 1's and 0's. Audiogon is fraught with people like this (as well as the other naysayer type of people).
It makes it frustrating for folks who would really like to know the differences, along with the ones who really would like to learn how it all works. They have to sift through all the BS and makes the signal to noise ratio incredibly low. That's when the mudslinging usually starts. So basically, nobody learns anything.
That's one of the reasons I like this forum. We don't tend to put up with this type of nonsense.nooshinjohn wrote: »These "all sound the same" types are simply jealous that people have things they can only dream about,,,
As harsh as this may sound, I gotta agree with that. I see it like this. They can't afford, or don't want to afford anything nicer than what they have, so they seek out others that share their own point of view to justify them not having to spend the money.What are some of the most ignorant claims you’ve heard? (Besides “cables don’t matter”, lol)
"I know because I was an electrical engineer for 40 years" - Well, that right there lets me know you are on the wrong side of the fence and that I need not listen to a damned thing you have to say. It's pointless. The ones that truly are on the right side of the fence would never say that. They just get right down to business. At least that's my experience with both in person and online engineers...YMMV
Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
In areas we can control, you get what you accept.
With ethernet cables, it's not just the wire but the termination. Back when I was doing DIY DAC's, I modded a Sony 3910 to export PCM and DSD to my DIY DAC. I had dropouts with DSD using some cheap Cat6a patch cords while PCM played fine. I purchased a couple patch cords from Blue Jeans cable. Not that expensive either. He tests them to make sure the cables performed properly.
A naysayer replied two different CAT6 cables will perform the same.
Kurt of Blue Jeans jumped in...
"I saw this thread and thought I'd jump in and comment on this; I'm Kurt Denke, owner of Blue Jeans Cable in Seattle WA, the manufacturer of the patch cord used by SCompRacer.
I agree with you, in principle, but I strongly suspect that the speed difference SCompRacer reports in his file transfer is for real. The surprising thing is that HUGE numbers of patch cords on the market fail their stated spec, and when we tested 20 different so-called Cat 6 and 6a patch cords from a variety of retail vendors on our Fluke DTX certification tester, sixteen failed their stated specs, and eleven of them not only failed their stated spec, but also failed the Cat 5e spec.
So, what is happening, in my view, to a lot of users is that they are indeed seeing different performance with different patch cords; this would be inexplicable if we assume that all of the patch cords meet spec, but once we realize that many of them fail it miserably (one "Cat 6" cable we tested failed the 5e return loss spec by 8 dB!), the likelihood of real-world differences in use really does loom large."
Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
Digital audio is just ones and zeroes.
I'll go one better, "digital ready speakers" SAY What!? -
SCompRacer wrote: »In areas we can control, you get what you accept.
With ethernet cables, it's not just the wire but the termination. Back when I was doing DIY DAC's, I modded a DENON 3910 to export PCM and DSD to my DIY DAC. I had dropouts with DSD using some cheap Cat6a patch cords while PCM played fine. I purchased a couple patch cords from Blue Jeans cable. Not that expensive either. He tests them to make sure the cables performed properly.
A naysayer replied two different CAT6 cables will perform the same.
Kurt of Blue Jeans jumped in...
"I saw this thread and thought I'd jump in and comment on this; I'm Kurt Denke, owner of Blue Jeans Cable in Seattle WA, the manufacturer of the patch cord used by SCompRacer.
I agree with you, in principle, but I strongly suspect that the speed difference SCompRacer reports in his file transfer is for real. The surprising thing is that HUGE numbers of patch cords on the market fail their stated spec, and when we tested 20 different so-called Cat 6 and 6a patch cords from a variety of retail vendors on our Fluke DTX certification tester, sixteen failed their stated specs, and eleven of them not only failed their stated spec, but also failed the Cat 5e spec.
So, what is happening, in my view, to a lot of users is that they are indeed seeing different performance with different patch cords; this would be inexplicable if we assume that all of the patch cords meet spec, but once we realize that many of them fail it miserably (one "Cat 6" cable we tested failed the 5e return loss spec by 8 dB!), the likelihood of real-world differences in use really does loom large."
Correction in bold -
Three letters say it all... ASRThe Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it? -
Amir and his ilk are the laughing stock of all things audio, except the measurement crowd. Nobody who is truly into this hobby and wants what's best in audio pays any attention to them.
Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Correction in bold
Thx! Yeah, Denon. I had a Sony but didn't mod that one, ModWright did. Still have the Denon 3910.Post edited by SCompRacer onSalk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
Digital audio is just ones and zeroes.
1's and 0's mean nothing to digital audio or computers for that matter. -
nooshinjohn wrote: »Three letters say it all... ASR
First thing I thought of when I read the OP's post. -
A little more detail on my run-in…
I was told that I wasted my time repairing/refurbing the Levinson, because it’s old and outdated. I was told I should “get with the times”, and get something like the Topping PA7 (below), because “watts are watts”, and it doesn’t matter if the amp is $500 or $5,000, as long as the distortion numbers are good.
“Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free.”
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn -
10% distortion and only tested at 1kHz, give me a freaking break!
Not enough current to stun a mouse. -
10% distortion and only tested at 1kHz, give me a freaking break!
Not enough current to stun a mouse.
and a 220v power supply...
The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it? -
I have a halfway decent digital amp that puts out plenty of power, it just only sounds ok compared to a quality class a or ab amp. I guess if you didn't know what you were missing it could be ok 😅- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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I have a halfway decent digital amp that puts out plenty of power, it just only sounds ok compared to a quality class a or ab amp. I guess if you didn't know what you were missing it could be ok 😅
I bought a little Fossi (sp) 50w x2 amp for my daughter in her room. It’s about the size of 4 DVD cases stacked together, and it runs a little pair of NHT bookshelf speakers, and sounds surprising good. However, it isn’t in the same league as an Adcom, Carver or Parasound amp, let alone the likes of McIntosh or Mark Levinson. Hell, it’s not even the same sport…. But as you point out, if you don’t know - but these ASR types should know better.
“Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free.”
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn -
"Since speakers that conform to these parameters will present the sound in much the same way we can already move away from thinking that it is essential to listen to them before making the choice."
-ASRThe Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it? -
"Cables don't make a difference"
I have little experience experimenting with cables. But I reject the claim. It's easy to make the claim in one direction. But it should be easy to conceive the idea that a poor quality cable can diminish the sound quality in your system. -
I've heard stuff that people say that I don't agree with.
I've heard stuff people say that others don't agree with but I do.
I find that it's not the experience level that matters as much as the understanding of what is producing that experience for the listener.“all amplifiers sound the same, as long as the output power and distortion numbers are similar…”
While, technically, this is true...on paper, reality is not so cut and dry. This very same discussion about all amps sounding the same has been had here. "Discussion" being a kind way of saying "knock down, drag out fight".
When folks make de facto statements like that, though, I have found more times than not that it's not coming from jealousy or inexperience or some other sort of social based construct. It is coming from rationalization instead of rational thought, though.
OK, so you made a change in your stereo and you heard a difference. Cool. Maybe you made a change and didn't hear a difference? Alright then, that's cool too.
But do you understand why? If you don't understand why are you going to try to learn why?
There are so many variables to account for in those changes. Everything from the environment you are listening in all down to the acid content of the PCB that your amp is built on can affect the reproduction of the sound. You can go crazy fretting over every little detail if you want.
But the biggest factor of them all lies between your ears. Whether you can grasp the concept that wires do matter because gauge, material composition, length, termination ends and even jacketing can affect the conductivity and noise floor of the component and it can manifest in audible changes. Sometimes it doesn't for some people. That doesn't necessarily mean that wires don't matter, it just means you can't hear a difference. Mr. Grand was a big "wires don't matter" guy but Mr. Grand also had permanent hearing loss from decades of serving his country as the boom operator in a KC-135. He couldn't hear much above about 11,000 Hz. So changes I could hear when wires were swapped out he could not because they happened in the ranges where his hearing was impaired. Does that mean wires don't matter? Nope. It just means that wires didn't matter to him because he could not realize the benefits.
There's always the placebo affect too, where you are expecting a change so even if there wasn't an audible one, your brain is saying there was so you can rationalize an expensive purchase.
The biggest problem, though, with all of it is the stigmas forced on everyone over it. It gets very cliquish and you're either a "believer" or a "non-believer" and then sorted into a faction perpetually cursed to do battle with the opposing faction for the entirety of your hobby activity.
Then you get the forceful rationalizations where folks make brash, broad claims like your amp doesn't matter or cables don't matter and it's often not coming from an empirical evidence stance but rather a "Holy heck, buddy, will you shut up about the amp specs and just listen to the music already!" or maybe they don't have the money to spend on an amp and they want to avoid the peer pressure or ridicule over their decisions? Any way you cut it, it's not always willful ignorance but it is always ego based. Nobody likes being told they are wrong, especially when personal evidence is contrary to that idea. Additionally, nobody likes hearing about how their rig is junk because it doesn't meet someone else's standards or getting mocked for it either (like Emotiva owners, anyone?).
I think that, right there, is the stupidest thing I have ever heard in this hobby of ours.
Do you like listening to your stereo? I like listening to mine. Most would scoff at some of the very plain and basic rigs I've had. I don't care though. I like it and that's all that matters.
Some of us just like listening to the music and they are content with what they have. More power to them, I'm sure they have way more beer money than others because they don't swap gear like they change underwear.
Some of us like the nerdy, science side of the hobby and strive to find out at least WHY things happen the way they do when something changes even if they can't afford to make the actual changes every time. Gives them something to strive for, though!
But the whole hobby is relative and it's based completely on a subjective consumer trying to be objective about a subjective topic.
When we mock others or dismiss them for their thoughts and experiences being different from ours, we really do hurt the hobby and, honestly, ourselves. Sometimes there are people who are very closed off and just won't listen to reason. You can't reach/help those but the rest of us? What's our excuse to laugh at and torment others over their difference in experiences? We should be learning from each other to deepen experiences and understanding on all sides.
So, I said all that to say this. The stupidest thing I have ever heard of in this hobby is the superiority complex based around a perceived moral high ground that deliberately excludes those who don't know/understand from actually knowing and understanding. Especially when the person thinking they hold that high ground has even less experience and understanding than the person they are holding that high ground over.
A close second is the baffling questions from audiophiles on why non-audiophiles dislike them. For the answer to that question, see the previous statement on what I think is the stupidest thing I've ever heard in this hobby.
YMMVExpert Moron Extraordinaire
You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you! -
[quoteBut as you point out, if you don’t know - but these ASR types should know better.
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Wait, Amir owns Levinson amps? -
His whole system was or is levinson- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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@Jstas, all the reasons why I like it here. Hardly any of the negative stuff that you so well summarized, at least in my experience.
Brian
One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Teac VRDS-701T CD transport | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM -
@Jstas, all the reasons why I like it here. Hardly any of the negative stuff that you so well summarized, at least in my experience.
Your wires suck...... -
Just because he uses broken coat hangers is no reason to denigrate him or his rig. Besides, everybody know that all you need for a long run of wire is 32 gauge, single strand aluminum for adequate transmission. Wires do not matter!Post edited by nooshinjohn onThe Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it? -
nooshinjohn wrote: »
Just because he uses broken coat hangers is no reason to denigrate him or his rig. Besides, everybody know that all you need for a long run of wire is 32 gauge, single strand aluminum for adequate transmission. Wires do not matter!
Yeah but he's using plastic hangers. I read on another forum that it didn't sound good...
