Housing market's gonna crash

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  • Posts: 17,809
    edited March 26
    Zillow says my house is about $640k
  • Posts: 29,260
    You have to admire this thread is 3 years old
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • Posts: 3,968
    My house is fine at this time.

    Now my investments are another story.
    The best way to predict the future is to invent it.

    It is imperative that we recognize that an opinion is not a fact.
  • Posts: 2,235
    International mutual funds and bonds are your friends!

    Brian

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  • Posts: 5,651
    Commercial real estate is in free fall in most cities. A whole lot of store chains
    are going under. Malls are dying. That means a lot of banks are going to be in
    the hurtwagon. If banks go into duress, getting a loan is going to be tough.
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson
  • Posts: 29,260
    Don't worry, I can feel the heat from the printers in anticipation
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • Posts: 17,809
    sucks2beme wrote: »
    Commercial real estate is in free fall in most cities. A whole lot of store chains
    are going under. Malls are dying. That means a lot of banks are going to be in
    the hurtwagon. If banks go into duress, getting a loan is going to be tough.

    This is actually a problem across the globe, I actually thought this would crash sometime ago.
  • Posts: 11,166
    It's pretty much the same here. Our mortgage is 2200 mth our house is 2850sq ft. The neighbor next to us (it's a rental) only 3 bed and about 1900sq ft is paying 2900 in rent. They are building these condos nearby a 3 bed 2k sq ft is 3400 mth in rent...What the actual F. Rent?!?!?!?!
  • Posts: 2,837
    @nooshinjohn , so which red dot is yours again? LOL
    Inventory around me is very low, and houses that come up for sale don't stay that way too long, but sell for what I think are insane prices; an 1100 sq ft, 3BR/1bath ranch sold less than 2 years ago for $460k.

    I am getting no fewer than 4 calls per week asking me if I would consider selling my home. It's gotten to the point that now they're calling and asking if I would be interested in selling the property my mom owns?!
    Anyone else get these calls?
    So, are you willing to put forth a little effort or are you happy sitting in your skeptical poo pile?


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  • Posts: 3,185
    I haven't got those calls lately but we did get them when we had a landline 2+ years ago.

    Markets around here are crazy. My daughter who lives barely 1.5 hours away told me our property would sell easily for over twice what it would sell for here....nuts!
    Yep, my name really is Bob.
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  • Posts: 5,651
    I get those buy your house calls and letters all the time.
    Meaningless drivel. They lowball by 50-80k. My wife was
    a realtor and can run comps very well. She looks at houses
    for sale and constantly tells me when the prices are too high
    Or low. Old habits die hard. Nobody fishing for houses for sale
    Is going to pay a fair price. They are looking for suckers.
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson
  • Posts: 2,837
    I sometimes play along with the callers just for S & Gs, and try to seem genuinely interested, and ask THEM what they would be willing to offer? That is usually met with something like "well, what are you looking to get?" At which point I tell them I have no idea, since I am not looking to sell anyway and have done no research on it. I sometimes ask what they think is a fair offer, and after 3 seconds of silence, I end the call.
    Hey, some days I feel like playing along; things have been boring lately. :)
    So, are you willing to put forth a little effort or are you happy sitting in your skeptical poo pile?


    http://audiomilitia.proboards.com/
  • Posts: 7,247
    edited March 27
    We bough @400k in 2012... here is my neighborhood today.


    2012 was a good time to buy. Low interest and some of the lowest housing prices in the last 25 years. We also bought in 2012 for $248K and sold in 2022 for $555K with only about $20K of improvements over that 10 years. Unfortunately, I had to buy another place in 2022 and probably paid about $75K more than it would have been in ~2019 prices. I still didn't pay above list price though.
  • Posts: 25,715
    We refinanced @2.5… took no money out but managed to take 5 years off the term
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

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  • Posts: 3,185
    Good move! The sooner one can eliminate debt the better life gets :)
    Yep, my name really is Bob.
    Parasound HCA1500A(indoor sound) and HCA1000(outdoor sound), Dynaco PAS4, Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus, Marantz UD7007, Polk L600, Rythmik L12 sub.
  • Posts: 2,241
    muncybob wrote: »
    Good move! The sooner one can eliminate debt the better life gets :)

    Agreed; Bought my house in 88 paid it off in 13 years and have been spending those would be mortgage payments on essentials such as boats, motorcycles, stereo equipment, etc. ever since
  • Posts: 5,774
    edited March 27
    I watched on the news where an elderly woman was given notice of sale on the house she was renting. The house had changed ownership 3 times. A corner lot, single family home that they have been renting for the last 52 years! WTF is wrong with people? Why in Gods name wouldn't you buy the house? It would have been paid off 22 years ago! Now she's worried about getting evicted.
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  • Posts: 2,837
    audioluvr wrote: »
    I watched on the news where an elderly woman was given notice of sale on the house she was renting. The house had changed ownership 3 times. A corner lot, single family home that they have been renting for the last 52 years! WTF is wrong with people? Why in Gods name wouldn't you buy the house? It would have been paid off 22 years ago! Now she's worried about getting evicted.

    She is the pioneering force behind the "You will own nothing and be happy" movement?

    Seriously, it is strange but people have their reasons. My mom has rented her house out to the same couple for 14 years. She gives them below market (which is totally insane here) monthly rent, because she knows they aren't going anywhere and take exquisite care of her house. They simply don't want the hassle of ownership I guess.
    So, are you willing to put forth a little effort or are you happy sitting in your skeptical poo pile?


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  • Posts: 29,260
    If someone asks my advice about home ownership, I tell them all the same thing.

    Can you fix things yourself?

    If not, can you afford to pay someone to fix things?

    If the answer is NO to both, then home ownership is not for you.

    Some people cant save money but they can budget to live paycheck to paycheck. It's an interesting thing.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • Posts: 7,247
    ^^^Padawan has become wise.
  • Posts: 2,241
    VR3 wrote: »
    If someone asks my advice about home ownership, I tell them all the same thing.

    Can you fix things yourself?

    If not, can you afford to pay someone to fix things?

    If the answer is NO to both, then home ownership is not for you.

    Some people cant save money but they can budget to live paycheck to paycheck. It's an interesting thing.

    But there are exceptions to saying no to both questions. When I bought my fixer upper in the 80's the only tool I was proficient at using was a splitting maul. With the help of some buds in the building trade I got my learning on quickly. Anything to stop paying someone else's mortgage.
  • Posts: 17,809
    No matter how someone does things, in the end, we all leave it for someone else..
  • Posts: 11,166
    Somethings the majority of people don't have the extra cash lying around (without having to dip into a LoC) say for a new roof. Who has 15k +++ in a bank account set aside for something just like this? not many. Most either take out a loan, or use a LoC.
  • Posts: 29,260
    It's all about being proactive versus reactive

    If you budget for the roof over 15 years before you need it you will pay 60 to 80 a month to a savings or investment account or you can pay 5 times as much per month for 5 years after you replace it plus interest cost

    Or you could aim for recently renovated or new homes, live there for 5 to 10 years and constantly move trying to avoid maintenance.

    So many ways to live this life. No right answer for anyone
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • Posts: 14,906
    edited March 28
    I know a guy who only rents. Well, I know a few people who only rent, only one has a stupid reason.

    One couple is in their mid-50's. Her mother was living with them and had severe health issues. He lost his job in 2009 and was out of work until the end of 2011. So they had no savings and while they did have a house, it got foreclosed on and they lost it. They were basically paying rent on a house with mom's gubment cheese. But he ended up getting a new job and they decided that they didn't want to start all over again with only a decade to retirement. So they rent because it's cheaper and easier than buying again.

    Another guy is an IT contractor and he rents because he does very specialized work so he's essentially moving every 5-6 years or so for work. His wife doesn't mind it at all 'cause they've lived in Italy, Thailand, Malaysia, Zimbabwe, Brazil, Canada, Spain, Germany, The U.K. and several places in the U.S. including Hawaii. Owning doesn't make sense to him 'cause he needs to be able to get up and move quickly. He does get paid crazy well, though.

    Another guy "rents" a house from himself 'cause he's a tenant of an LLC he and his brother own. The LLC is a property management company. They own a couple dozen units, several are beach properties. All he does is work at maintaining them through the property management company. So while he actually owns the company that owns his house, he's a tenant and gets good rates on insurance and stuff because he bulk buys through the property management LLC. He did it because it keeps him from being liable and sued into oblivion if something goes horribly wrong. He told me he can't be sued if he doesn't actually own anything and the LLC has a limited liability and he can somehow dissolve the LLC without having to liquidate the assets if they get in to some legal trouble for some reason. It's all convoluted and feels shady to me but a real estate attorney told me it was legit. So whatever. Works for him and he's got waaaaay more money than me so what do I know?

    Another guy rents because he feels his time is more important and he can earn more in an hour than he'll pay someone else to do something for him. This is the dumbest rationalization I've ever heard. He's been in the same job, not, like, the same industry, literally the same job since 2009. No upward movement, no raises, no nothing. His rent on this house in a fancy area is about $3100 a month. So he's paying almost $40K a year in rent plus utilities, plus renters insurance, plus whatever else. He also has two leased cars. He's been living this way since I've known him and before that too. He's been in his current house for 7 years now, going on his 8th. When he started renting his rent at the current place was $2800 a month. In 7 years, he's paid at least $226,800 (probably closer to $250K with the yearly rent increases) for a town home that was valued at $269K when he started renting. If he had gotten a 15 year mortgage on the $269K house at 2017 interest rates, he'd be able to pay it off and own it outright within the next 2 years if he was throwing $3100 a month at it. Last I knew, he was bringing in about $140K a year so his take home is around $90K-$95K a year. He swears he's saving money but I don't know how. His utility bills electric, gas, water, phones, internet and TV plus his gaming subscriptions total is over 1500 a month. The two leases are over 1200 a month. His rent is 3100 a month so he's at 5800 a month, at least, for just living and renting everything. He's bringing in about $8K a month after taxes. 72.5% of his take home pay goes straight to someone else to rent things he depends on and pay the bills for maintaining them. This doesn't include his food bill or his essentials bills or anything else like that. He goes to concerts all the time, at least 2 a month, he's out to eat every weekend and he's always taking trips to other countries so he can put stuff up on his Instagram account for the social cred. I don't know what he's going to do for retirement but he's only got about 20 more years in the workforce. I just....the lack of foresight there and the indignation when challenged about it that he gets is astounding. Besides all that, his $269K townhome in 2017 is now worth $425K. 40% increase in value for just sitting there with a mook in it. But his time is SOOOO much more valuable. Doesn't have a single piece of wealth building asset to his name. I hope he doesn't outlive his savings.


    Ownership is rough. You gotta put on your big boy pants and get to being a responsible adult. But there's having a lot of money in a savings account and then there's wealth building. Savings accounts are nice but even Dave Ramsey tells you not to hold all your money in a savings account. Investing in markets (stocks, funds, money, etc), buying real estate and even owning a business whether it's a primary or a side business makes your money that you've made work for you and return far more on an investment than sitting there in a bank account making millions for the bank while you get a pittance in return while being charged a fee to be able to access your money.

    I mean, think about it. Say you bought NVidia stock 'cause you're a gamer and you want to support one of your favorite hardware manufacturers. Say you bought it for $6.50 or so a share back in early 2020. 300 or so shares for $6.50, that's about $2K worth of stock in NVidia. A year later that stock split in a 4:1 ratio. It was valued at $14.40 a share before the split. But you now have 1200 shares of NVidia stock. After the split it was now worth $16 or so a share. Your $2K investment is now worth about $19,200. Cool. Then AI hits and NVidia stocks starts rising. So you keep riding that wave and by June of 2024, it's worth 131.88 a share. Your 1200 shares are now worth $158,256.00. Then it splits in a 10:1 ratio. You now own 12,000 shares of NVidia stock. Immediately after the split, you share value drops to 125.31 a share. Big whoop. Those 12K shares are still worth $1,503,720.00. Congrats, bro, you're a millionaire. But wait! There's more! NVidia is still skyrocketing to a valuation of $153.13 a share.

    $153.13 x 12,000 = $1,837,560

    A $2,000 investment at the end of 2019 instead of buying that new HUGE TV on the Black Friday Sale turned in to almost $2M in 5 years. That's only a blip in the hundreds of billions in valuation that NVidia has right now. So you could cash in all of that $1.87M and it'd barely register on the stock valuation. There's a lot of gaming nerds out there who have had similar success and are now actually wealthy because of NVidia right now. You gotta play the long game. You don't build wealth with just a paycheck but you can become very wealthy if you're smart with what the guy you work for says you are worth instead of what you are actually worth.

    They say a man never got rich working for someone else. That's baloney. I see it all the time. But those people who are getting rich working for someone else? They did it through investment vehicles like investment funds, stock/share ownership, property ownership, all of which they got by leveraging the income they made. You just have to have some insight looking forward and play the long game. The idea that your time is valuable is true but to put a number on it that someone else said it's worth is stupid.
    Post edited by Jstas on
    Expert Moron Extraordinaire

    You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
  • Posts: 14,906
    billbillw wrote: »
    There are problems in the market, but there are far fewer sub-prime loans that are out there now. I don't think it will be as bad as before, but who knows. There will be losses for sure, but everything will get snatched up by investors on the other side of bankruptcy. There will be even more homes converted to rentals. Rent prices will continue to climb. Ultra rich get richer. Poor and middle class struggle. Younger middle class will shrink and eventually cease to exist. The dream of home ownership is growing distant for the kids graduating from college today and in the near future unless they want to put in the work to buy a fixer upper and do a lot of hard work.

    It's not the sub-prime loans that are the problem this go around.

    Real estate is a wealth transfer vehicle. It lets poors borrow money from richs to be able to get a wealth building asset to make them notsopoors.

    The fact that foreclosures are up means there are poors who will stay poor because they will not be able to borrow money from richs again.

    Even at that, though, the interest rates are still high and the credit market is all but frozen up again so the access to the money for poors to become notsopoors is drying up.

    So instead of richs lending money to poors who had none and had no way to pay it back, richs have the money and aren't giving it to the poors.

    The real estate growth market completely depends on that creation of money. If a rich can't turn $350K into $400K through interest payments then there's no growth. But you must have that $350K first, on both sides.

    Lenders have it in their pocket now. But it's not growing in their pocket. So they lend it and get extra back for the effort of lending it. That's how it grows.

    Borrowers don't have it right now but they will eventually and then the rich will get the monetary growth while the poor ends up with an appreciating asset that can be liquidated for double digit gains percentages if they played it right.

    In the sub-prime game, it was the poor who didn't have the money nor did they have the potential to get it all. Can't grow the pile of money if there isn't money being injected to it from loan payment. That crashes the game.

    In the current situation, the poors potential to get the money eventually is there but the richs are freaked out and holding on to every dollar with both hands out of fear of losing all the dollars. So there's no money on the richs end to borrow and the poors won't get the chance to be notsopoor. That's even in spite of the glut of low-cost homes that are in foreclosure now.

    What we're going to see in 2025 is all of the housing prices that are artificially high, they're gonna drop...a lot. That's because even though there are buyers available for houses to be sold, there's no money to borrow. A buyer with no money is just a watcher. So house prices will continue to drop, but not until a poor can afford to buy it. No, poors can afford it now. They will drop to a point where the rich feels the house is more valuable than the sale price thereby mitigating the risk of lending to a poor because even if the poor defaults and gets foreclosed on, the rich can still write off the loss on the lent money and then turn around sell the house at auction and recoup all of the money they lost on the defaulted loan and then some. They'll still get to take the capital gains loss deduction for the next 3 years too.

    They'll call it "market correction" but it's really just the guy with the money is trying to wait it out long enough to rig it in his favor. There's nothing anyone can do about it either 'cause you can't compel someone to spend or lend money through legislation. Well, I mean, you can. The Democrats did it during Clinton's administration which directly led to collapse in 2008 but those laws were being challenged in court for 10-15 years until the collapse. They just didn't get it done before the disaster hit.

    With the way the insurance companies are jettisoning people's policies and not underwriting new ones makes that scenario seem absolutely planned because the only ones who can afford to snap up the foreclosures are big corporations. They can afford to wait too. Makes you wonder why, though, 'cause being a landlord is not especially lucrative. It can be hard to manage costs and the liability risk is very high. The more properties you have the more opportunities for that to get out of control there are. Kinda makes you think about all these conspiracy theories around the 15 minute cities and "you'll own nothing and you'll like it" stuff. They use to call those "company towns".
    Expert Moron Extraordinaire

    You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
  • Posts: 7,247
    edited March 28
    That's pretty much what I said, but you added almost 1000 words. :p
  • Posts: 759
    billbillw wrote: »
    That's pretty much what I said, but you added almost 1000 words. :p

    :D
  • Posts: 4,799
    edited March 28
    billbillw wrote: »
    That's pretty much what I said, but you added almost 1000 words. :p

    Over 2000 words. And you never mentioned predicting the future for investments.

    Meanwhile, I'm in an area where house prices continue to go up, just like they did in the last housing "crash".
  • Posts: 3,968
    Inflation up and gold over 3k.

    The best way to predict the future is to invent it.

    It is imperative that we recognize that an opinion is not a fact.

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