Looking for opinion on a next tower purchase
jimmypet
Posts: 34
Hello Fello Polk Fans.
I am a long time lurker and reader here, I just officially joined recently.
Like most of you I am a huge fan of the older "Vintage" Polk sound. In my head it's what a stereo speaker should sound like.
I'm an older guy (63). I like classic rock, mostly things like Steely Dan, James Taylor, Eagles, Fleetwood Mac, Elton, Billy, Led Zeppelin, etc. I think you get the picture.
I was given a demo of the LS90 in a stereo shop showroom back when they were new and I have never been able to get that sound out of my head. I could have never hoped to afford them back then but as I grew in my career and had the means I started collecting what are now considered vintage Polks.
Over the years I have accumulated sets of RTiA9s in my HT, a couple pair of 11T that I absolutely love (11T are my favorites) along with a few sets of Monitor 5, 7s 7Bs (I have not gotten round to a set of 10s yet but thats not the point of this post.
QUESTION: I really feel like I want to find a nece set of LS90s to add to my collection but I cannot find any threads that compare the LS90 to the 11T and/or the RTIA9.
I believe all three of these were considered the top of the line tower in their respective time period.
My main question is how would buying a set of LS90s hold up against the 11T and the RTIA9s?
Am I looking at those through an old man's rose colored glasses?
Is this a situation of dont meet your heros when compared to the 11T and the RTIA9?
I found what appears to be a nicely preserved set of LS90s a couple hours away from me.
Would you recommend adding those to my collection?
They would be for music listening only.
I searched and searched for posts or threads comparing those three generations of towers but couldn't find any. If there is such a thread my apologies, please point me to it.
I thank you in advance for your advice and input (as well as all the knowledge I have gotten here as a lurker over the years).
Sorry if this post duplicates, I wrote a whole post and then it disappeared so I retyped it all again as close as I could get LOL.
I am a long time lurker and reader here, I just officially joined recently.
Like most of you I am a huge fan of the older "Vintage" Polk sound. In my head it's what a stereo speaker should sound like.
I'm an older guy (63). I like classic rock, mostly things like Steely Dan, James Taylor, Eagles, Fleetwood Mac, Elton, Billy, Led Zeppelin, etc. I think you get the picture.
I was given a demo of the LS90 in a stereo shop showroom back when they were new and I have never been able to get that sound out of my head. I could have never hoped to afford them back then but as I grew in my career and had the means I started collecting what are now considered vintage Polks.
Over the years I have accumulated sets of RTiA9s in my HT, a couple pair of 11T that I absolutely love (11T are my favorites) along with a few sets of Monitor 5, 7s 7Bs (I have not gotten round to a set of 10s yet but thats not the point of this post.
QUESTION: I really feel like I want to find a nece set of LS90s to add to my collection but I cannot find any threads that compare the LS90 to the 11T and/or the RTIA9.
I believe all three of these were considered the top of the line tower in their respective time period.
My main question is how would buying a set of LS90s hold up against the 11T and the RTIA9s?
Am I looking at those through an old man's rose colored glasses?
Is this a situation of dont meet your heros when compared to the 11T and the RTIA9?
I found what appears to be a nicely preserved set of LS90s a couple hours away from me.
Would you recommend adding those to my collection?
They would be for music listening only.
I searched and searched for posts or threads comparing those three generations of towers but couldn't find any. If there is such a thread my apologies, please point me to it.
I thank you in advance for your advice and input (as well as all the knowledge I have gotten here as a lurker over the years).
Sorry if this post duplicates, I wrote a whole post and then it disappeared so I retyped it all again as close as I could get LOL.
Comments
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Hi jimmy and welcome.
I say yes, you should absolutely get them and add to your collection.
I have the same addiction except for Phase Linear gear.
In no way can they compare with newer gear but, I don’t care.
I love the memories….
Skip -
Thanks for the reply Skip.
I know sometimes when a newb comes in an asks a long winded, broad reaching question like the one I posted the forum regulars may just say search newb, but I sincerely appreciate your reply.
I can relate to your love of the old Phase Linear gear.
I would love to find a pair of the Clair Brothers Audio modified Phase Linear amps.
I run all of my speakers via old BGW 750Bs or 750Cs.
The Phase Linear's were such a great warm sounding amp and the modifications the Clair Audio guys did to them made them as bulletproof as a Phase Linear gets.
Those are super rare finds.
Cheers and Thanks again
Jimmy P -
Never heard the LS90, so can't comment.
Don't like the 11T.
The RTiA9 are home theater speakers.
Don't bother getting Monitor 10, the 7 is the best of that series.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Never heard the LS90, so can't comment.
Don't like the 11T.
The RTiA9 are home theater speakers.
Don't bother getting Monitor 10, the 7 is the best of that series.
Thanks for your reply.
I guess the real truth is seeing if the LS90 seller can set them up so I can listen to them and see if they live up to the memory I have of them LOL.
I really have no use for them other than an almost addictive urge to "collect all the things"
I seem to have gone through this with old cars, old watches, old amplifiers and lately old Polk speakers (maybe not truly old but stuff from the 70s and 80s that I couldnt afford back then).
I'm old, I have no kids, may as well just have fun LOL.
Curious what you dont like about the 11Ts?
You are surely one one of the OGs on this forum, your posts are always informative.
There is no wrong or right answer, just I love the 11Ts and it seemed like over the years on this forum they are an almost universally loved older model. Like I wrote, of all the versions I own the 11T and the few 7s I have are my favorites, but if I had to get rid of all of them but one, I'd keep the 11ts. -
Get the LS90. Test them against your current speakers and share the results. Win win!
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Thanks for your reply.
I guess the real truth is seeing if the LS90 seller can set them up so I can listen to them and see if they live up to the memory I have of them LOL.
I really have no use for them other than an almost addictive urge to "collect all the things"
I seem to have gone through this with old cars, old watches, old amplifiers and lately old Polk speakers (maybe not truly old but stuff from the 70s and 80s that I couldnt afford back then).
I'm old, I have no kids, may as well just have fun LOL.
Curious what you dont like about the 11Ts?
You are surely one one of the OGs on this forum, your posts are always informative.
There is no wrong or right answer, just I love the 11Ts and it seemed like over the years on this forum they are an almost universally loved older model. Like I wrote, of all the versions I own the 11T and the few 7s I have are my favorites, but if I had to get rid of all of them but one, I'd keep the 11ts.
Just didn't care for their sound/presentation. I'm sure the SL2000 tweeters played a part.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Conradicles wrote: »Get the LS90. Test them against your current speakers and share the results. Win win!
I have to say I like the way you guys are enablers LOL -
Was bi-amping kappa 9’s with the 700’s….
https://us.v-cdn.net/cdn-cgi/image/fit=scale-down,width=800/https://us.v-cdn.net/5021930/uploads/editor/i1/ghzmmwtb21my.jpg
If you can find them get ones with the full White Oak Audio treatment. -
Followup Report for anyone who had interest. I was able to make an offer and purchase a beautifully preserved, adult owned pair of LS90s in black.
I lined them up in a row in my basement theatre in age 11T, LS90, RTIA9, once I got the LS90s wired up I gave the whole lineup a great listening session. It was lot of fun.
1st impression was like watching the time your favorite old sports star is dethroned by a younger fitter star.
I absolutely love my 11Ts but the LS90 just walked all over them. Low level, mid level and at higher levels there was no comparison. in higher level listening my 11Ts couldnt keep up. The crossover kept going into protect mode (I am sending my 11T crossovers to VR3 to correct that aspect).
First let me say music listening is so subjective, there is no wrong or right or good or bad, one persons love might make another person cover their ears. One person might love a certain type of sound that another hates so these are my old 63 year old impressions.
Full disclosure I have worked on the touring side of the music industry for 40 years so (1) I've been standing in front of arena PAs for 40 years and (2) I'm not a true "audiophile". I cant hear the difference between a speaker cable type of copper, I dont play with distances from walls, speaker point feet, nor do I try.
I play music that I know well and like, I turn the volume to where I want it, I EQ in or out what I dont like.
The 11T is a beautifully warm speaker and when played with older analog classic rock it really shines and sounds beautiful to me up to about ~95dbA and then on mine the highs start shutting down.
Its the one speaker that I can listen to on the Pure Audio setting with no EQ and just enjoy, it just doesnt like anything above a certain volume level but that may be remedied when I get my crossovers done.
The LS90 is a rock star, it's exactly what I thought it was, no rose colored old man glasses. It sounded exactly like what I remembered from that stereo shop listening room so many years ago. I have not heard a pair of them since and it was exactly what I remembered.
At low to mid levels it was "almost" as sweet at the 11T but as you started adding volume it just got better. As we got above say ~94-95dbA I personally thought it needed a little cut around 8Kish so I switched it out of Pure Audio mode and notched a slight dip at 8K and 16K and it sweetened right up.
Where the LS90 really shined was then piling on more watts it just sounded better. It got loud and forceful. It was like taking a sound shower. It just filled the room and kept sounding better the louder it got. The low end was tight, powerful, and really just fun. It really filled the room.
The tweets or crossover point was a little harsher when perfectly flat at higher volumes but a slight notch in the top cured that. I really enjoyed playing with these. Im so glad I bought them. They are my new favorite speakers.
For comparison sake I also went through the same exercise with the RTIA9s. These I have as mostly HT speakers but Im not adverse to listening to music through them but they need to most EQ-ing to sound musical to me.
The RTIA9 is still the level king, you can keep pushing them and they just get louder and ultimately if you want to listen to something with alot of impact they will do the job, but man that top end is nasty. For me they needed a much bigger EQ dip in the 8K-16K area. I also gave a little boost to the 63 area. Then (for me) they warm up and get much more musical. I cannot listen to these speakers in Pure Audio mode. They just are too harsh (and thats from a guy whose ears have stood in front of live PAs for 40 years).
I do need to buy another real EQ, I lost my EQ in my divorce, my ex was also in the music biz and all the outboard gear was hers so I am currently relegated to using the virtual EQ inside my receiver, but next purchase will be another good 31 band EQ. All three of these speakers are good in their own ways but so different and benefit from a little EQ for me to get where I love it.
To recap, this was alot of fun, the LS90 was as good as I remembered it and Im really happy to have them in family. It's a really amazing rock star of a speaker for me for my old man classic rock music listening.
Once I get my 11T crossovers done by VR3 there will be a rematch
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You are tripping the polyswitch (thermal protection reset device) in your 11T. It trips when the distortion level (clipping) of the amp is too high, which generates heat and triggers the polyswitch to shut down in order to save the tweeter from damage.
The polyswitch becomes more and more sensitive each time it is tripped.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
You are tripping the polyswitch (thermal protection reset device) in your 11T. It trips when the distortion level (clipping) of the amp is too high, which generates heat and triggers the polyswitch to shut down in order to save the tweeter from damage.
The polyswitch becomes more and more sensitive each time it is tripped.
Yeah thats what I have learned over the years of owning them, but I guess it was made more apparent when running them back to back with the LS90s. The LS90 just have so much more headroom to take power / volume.
I wasnt clipping, I had mountains of headroom but I can definitley see on those over the years when I put too much energy into them that thermal protect will trip.
I have way more amp than those are built for at higher levels.
I've gotten pretty good at knowing when to throttle back on the 11Ts, and operate them right at the edge of where that protection will trip, but it was really apparent / exposed when A-B'ing them with the LS90. The LS90 will really do alot more SPL than the 11T.
I am sure there is a frequency that is whats driving that trip and if I had the time and inclination I could probably find it and pull it down, but I've been in contact with the the VR3 team and I'm just going to get the crossovers updated.
This was a similar issue in my day job in the old days of the Showco PRISM PA the PRISM processor would basically safeguard the PA from a hamfisted engineer. If someone drove one segment of the PA too hard it would just throttle back everything until the offending area was "fixed".
Very frequently an engineer would send way too hot signal to the top end by an errant high hat or overhead mic, which would end up throttling the whole PA.
Fix your EQ and/or your mix balance and the whole thing would open back up.
I'd be willing to bet there is something similar with that 11T crossover, when driven too hot completely flat it's sending too much energy to some segment and it just saves itself.
Up to that point I love the sound of those speakers though.
What I didnt know is that it gets worse the more times you trip it, so I'm sure I'm not helping myself by having found that limit and then throttling back numerous times over the years LOL.
Thank you for that bit of info. -
"VR3 team"...LOLPolitical Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Most all here have removed the polyswitch and replaced with a .5ohm 10 or 12 watt resistor. The poly as noted start tripping very easily, even with high quailty amps power. trust me been there done it.
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"VR3 team"...LOL
Hey for all I know there are 20 guys building crossovers, or maybe one. I got email replies from two different guys so to me I guess at least two is enough to be a team LOL -
Most all here have removed the polyswitch and replaced with a .5ohm 10 or 12 watt resistor. The poly as noted start tripping very easily, even with high quailty amps power. trust me been there done it.
Thanks
yeah I have read about that mod which lead me to contact VR3, now I need to get on it LOL -
Hey for all I know there are 20 guys building crossovers, or maybe one. I got email replies from two different guys so to me I guess at least two is enough to be a team LOL
Yeah, that confused me too when I was having mine built by VR3.
I think it may be dependent on which device he is/was using.
Here are mine for my 2.3TLs:
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Sometimes I respond from my phone or desktop which generates different names.
Just little ol me though, sorry for any confusion! I do consider my laser cutter an employee though if that counts! 😁- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
Team VR3 has a nice ring.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
You are tripping the polyswitch (thermal protection reset device) in your 11T. It trips when the distortion level (clipping) of the amp is too high, which generates heat and triggers the polyswitch to shut down in order to save the tweeter from damage.
The polyswitch becomes more and more sensitive each time it is tripped.
I'll add that polyswitches typically don't reset back to the original resistance once they have tripped. The resistance increases and will add a little attenuation to the tweeter circuit.Stan
Main 2ch:
Polk LSi15 (DB840 upgrade), Parasound: P/LD-1100, HCA-1000A; Denon: DVD-2910, DRM-800A; Benchmark DAC1, Monster HTS3600-MKII, Grado SR-225i; Technics SL-J2, Parasound PPH-100.
HT:
Marantz SR7010, Polk: RTA11TL (RDO198-1, XO and Damping Upgrades), S4, CS250, PSW110 , Marantz UD5005, Pioneer PL-530, Panasonic TC-P42S60
Other stuff:
Denon: DRA-835R, AVR-888, DCD-660, DRM-700A, DRR-780; Polk: S8, Monitor 5A, 5B, TSi100, RM7, PSW10 (DXi104 upgrade); Pioneer: CT-6R; Onkyo CP-1046F; Ortofon OM5E, Marantz: PM5004, CD5004, CDR-615; Parasound C/PT-600, HCA-800ii, Sony CDP-650ESD, Technics SA 5070, B&W DM601 -
The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.—Martin Luther King Jr.
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Most all here have removed the polyswitch and replaced with a .5ohm 10 or 12 watt resistor. The poly as noted start tripping very easily, even with high quailty amps power. trust me been there done it.
Except for me, jumpered my poly’s as I like my sound crispy 😉
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I am not a fan of equalizers, but if you are not an audiophile? My advice would be to get a 32 band EQ. You can really soundscape the music better with those.
This, coming from a guy who started his audio journey with 3 EQ's in the same system (back when CD's first came out). FWIW.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I am not a fan of equalizers, but if you are not an audiophile? My advice would be to get a 32 band EQ. You can really soundscape the music better with those.
This, coming from a guy who started his audio journey with 3 EQ's in the same system (back when CD's first came out). FWIW.
Tom
Yeah I found a nice Klark Teknik EQ from one of my audio vendors that they sold me for a really solid deal.
I'm not sure why so many stereo & home audio fans seems to dislike EQs, they are the ultimate tone knobs LOL. Obviously just dont overuse it or abuse it (with great power comes great responsibility).
I (we) had a KTDN360 in our system for years and then as noted above it left with my ex-wife as all the outboard gear we had was hers. -
I'm not sure why so many stereo & home audio fans seems to dislike EQs, they are the ultimate tone knobs LOL. Obviously just dont overuse it or abuse it (with great power comes great responsibility).
They sure can be fun, but let me offer a few perspectives on why (in general) EQ's are generally shunned upon amongst audio purists -
For me, it was the phasing shifts that was the most prominent deficiency. This, skews image placement and can make things sound unnatural. Other things that purists frown upon, is that some of them add noise into the signal. This is most detrimental to getting the very best out of one's system. Then, there are the additional cables needed (that can also pick up more noise), as well as the extra component itself. Poorly designed EQ's may not be designed properly at the power section, so that adds even more noise into the signal.
EQ's are also somewhat akin to a band-aid. They cannot overcome system deficiencies, issues or defects, nor can they solve any room anomalies, like proper room treatment can. They can also color the sound. Many purists insist that you want to remain as faithful to the original recording as possible. Any further processing of the signal is considered coloring the signal. It has the potential to make things sound less real, and usually this is commonplace with EQ's.
That said, I had a lot of fun with my EQ's when I had them. Throughout my audio journey, I believe I had a Furman dual 31 or 32 band EQ, a Rat Shack 10 band EQ, an old BSR 10 band and an AudioSource 10 band EQ. One of them had the ever cool spectrum analyzer on the front panel. 3 of these were actually on the same system. Granted, I was only 12 or 13 at the time, so I was just getting my feet wet in audio and at the time, CD's had just been introduced to the public. The CD's are actually what prompted me to get the EQ's to begin with.
When the CD's first came out, prior to that, I only had heard LP's, a very brief stint with cassettes, and RTR. These were all analog sources, so in comparison, CD's were like listening to nails running across a chalkboard. Many of them were recorded so bright, it literally hurt my ears to listen to them. Hence, the introduction of the EQ's into the system.
Fast forward 20 or 25 years later, after being without any EQ's for a very long time, I reintroduced the Furman dual EQ into my rig at the time. Now, at that point, I was a little bit more seasoned than I was as a kid, and this is when I really picked up on the phase shifts. I also got tired of having to adjust the EQ to differing albums, to make each one of them sound it's best. Sometimes, even within the same album, I would get up and have to adjust the EQ because the sound would vary from one song to the next.
This got old very quickly and it was at that point, that I started my journey as a purist. Fast forward to today, and all of the noise issues have been addressed and the only adjustment I have for my system now is a volume knob. There is no signal altering processing (with the exception of digital to analog), no EQ, no further adjustments and since I have resolved the issues and no longer rely on the EQ to help things? My audio journey has taken off in spades.
The music is much more enjoyable. I get a great sound stage, complete with killer depth, width and height. On killer recordings, the sound envelops me and places me there. The speakers are there but even with your eyes open, you can "see" where the sounds are coming from (nowhere near the actual speakers), and the tone/tonal balance is spot on.
This may not be the path you want to take. It isn't for everyone. The point of my post was to answer your question on why so many stereo & home audio fans seems to dislike EQs. I hope I answered it well enough without belittling anyone's choice to run with an EQ.
Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Not disagreeing with equalizers adding noise and phase shifts as I know zip about that but, I do have questions…
Aren’t the recordings we’re trying to be faithful to using equalizers in the recording process?
Doesn’t live music played by bands use equalizers?
Along with phase shifts regarding equalizers I have another question….
What about the digital room correction used nowadays, dsp, arc and the like that boost or detent frequencies?
Does that cause phase shift also?
I know zip about this technology.
I still use an equalizer in my system, in & out depending on supporting gear, along with a spectrum analyzer, with microphone, to adjust for room anomalies.
I really like all the lights, knobs, dials and sliders on my EQ and Analyzer,
Shiny things 🤪
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skipshot12 wrote: »Aren’t the recordings we’re trying to be faithful to using equalizers in the recording process?
Some of them do, yes. In most cases nowadays, it is done via a program, multiple programs, DAW's, MIDI controllers and the like. It also depends on whether it's an all analog recording, DTD (Direct to Disc) or a digital recording/mastering. There are some that use no manipulating at all, and use only the mic placement for their recordings/masterings (think Blue Coast Records).
They can also manipulate the phase in the studio to correct or enhance any shifting. This is why you hear some things where you do, within the reproductive effort at home. They can do this via microphone placement, combining multiple sounds together to form a cohesive sound at the mixer, pan in or out, fade, compress, or even add reverb and delay (for say, an echo or perceived added ambience).
There are many variables. So many, that a book could actually be written about this. Actually, many books have been written about this. It can get very complicated, very quickly, but this should offer you a very basic glimpse.skipshot12 wrote: »Doesn’t live music played by bands use equalizers?
Yes. Many of them do use them (I did, along with the mixing board). But, this is for a professional, live playback scenario, where room treatments (absorption panels, bass traps, diffusion panels/devices) are not a viable option and the reproductive effort end result is for a completely different experience. In other words, amplified, live music has different expectations from their audience versus what audiophiles would want to experience in their own home and from their system.skipshot12 wrote: »Along with phase shifts regarding equalizers I have another question….
What about the digital room correction used nowadays, dsp, arc and the like that boost or detent frequencies?
I think you meant to say attenuate, not detent. As for the question...DSP (Digital sound processing) used today is, if properly designed, has generally less distortion, phase shift issues and noise. Especially when compared to old school and improperly designed gear. Some of these programs are well over 50K just for the program. ARC is just a connector type. You lost me on that one.skipshot12 wrote: »Does that cause phase shift also?
Yes.
There are many out there that honestly don't pay any attention at all to what others in this hobby pay dearly to improve or even experience from their rigs in the first place. This is just a hobby for most of us and if something works well for you and rocks your audio preferences? Run with it and don't look back. Everyone is on their own personal audio journey.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Thanks Tom.
That was helpful.
I’m not familiar with the digital room correction stuff and thought arc was some kind of room correction program?
Yes, attenuation not detent, thank you for the correction. -
I didn't read the whole thread
The problem with equalizers above everything else is the power requirements that can be associated with them. This really starts to show up at higher volumes.
But every 3db doubles the volume and drastically increases the power requirements.
I have the ability to use Dirac in my 2 channel setup. In order to hit the levels my system can go to without Dirac I need atleast double or more power! It's a dramatic increase- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
Great conversation has branched off in this thread. I'm just catching up.
Maybe because I live in the live / touring side of music and we use EQs every day and have for decades (well used to, many digital process have taken over for the humble 31 band EQ, its been ages since I saw one in a tour rack) I'm a little desensitized to it.
I personally have no inherent precious reasons to try to ultra accurately preserve the source material.
No, I dont want to bastardize it, but I want it to sound "good to me".
The way I look at it, I figure some guy (or girl) mixed that music on some set of studio monitors which I dont have, then someone else mastered it also on a set of monitors I dont have, then probably by the age of the music I listen to someone has gone an RE-Mastered it in some Protools type digital environment that I also dont have.
All I do with EQ is adjust that music I love to sound how I like it on the speakers I have.
I'm not too bothered by any of the details beyond that.
I do love the discussion though!
Its great to always hear the true audiophiles side of the conversation.
I live / work / exist surrounded by live music touring people so its good to hear the reasonings from people outside my world.
