How to best connect My Polk speakers, and which receiver?

FIST_Racing · January 2016

Hi Guys, I'm not very knowledgeable in this world and I have been reading through so much information trying to solve my problems but I think I have read myself into a state of mass confusion and made things worse. I will outline my different setups below to give more detail. My current issue is that My 2 year old Yamaha died, or rather is in the process of dying. I'm assuming at this point it has something to do with the HDMI inputs failing. It doesn't really matter, because even though my whole life I wanted a Yamaha, I have hated it since day one. I am now in the market for a new receiver, but I also need to know the proper way to connect and set up my speakers.

1st setup:
Receiver: JVC RX-D702B
Front L/R speakers: Polk Audio RT2000i (set up using option one in the manual, binding posts connected for high input)
Center speaker : Polk Audio CS400i
Rear L/R speakers: Cheap Sony surrounds from an old box set
Outside speakers: Cheap speakers

I absolutely loved this setup. It sounded wonderful and made me happy and smile to listen to music, and really made me smile to watch movies. it was full and wonderful and made me feel like I was at a high end movie theater. I can't say enough how much I loved this setup. It was only towards the end that I noticed that newer Bluerays sounded flat and boring and like they were missing a lot of effects. I looked into it and from what I could tell, it had to do with the receiver being too old to understand the new codecs (or something to that effect) That's when I decided to upgrade, which was the start of my nightmare

2nd setup:
Receiver: Yamaha RX-V773
Front L/R speakers: Polk Audio RT2000i (set up using option one in the manual, binding posts connected for high input)
Center speaker : Polk Audio CS400i
Rear L/R speakers: Cheap Sony surrounds from an old box set
Outside speakers: Cheap speakers

It sounded horrible. It was flat and boring with no bass and effects, I was sure I had done something wrong. I spent time using the YPAO microphone setup several times, and it was just bad, boring, no feeling. I began my manually changing of setups in the receiver menu. It always sounded awful. I called friends over who tried to help, and nothing. It was just bad. At this point I changed the way the RT2000is were wired thinking maybe the new technology didn't like this setup.

3rd setup:
Receiver: Yamaha RX-V773
Front L/R speakers: Polk Audio RT2000i (set up using option 2 in the manual, binding posts not connected for high input and using the sub woofer line level inputs direct from the receiver)
Center speaker : Polk Audio CS400i
Rear L/R speakers: Cheap Sony surrounds from an old box set
Outside speakers: Cheap speakers

I was able to get bass back in the sound, but I also have to turn the bass level 3/4 up on the turn knobs on the speakers. It still doesn't have the powerful bass you can feel like it used to. The sound it a little better, but still leaves me wanting. ok, maybe it's the wiring. I decided to rewire everything with good expensive wire. Nothing changed, ok maybe it's my rear speakers, time to upgrade again.

4th setup:
Receiver: Yamaha RX-V773
Front L/R speakers: Polk Audio RT2000i (set up using option 2 in the manual, binding posts not connected for high input and using the sub woofer line level inputs direct from the receiver)
Center speaker : Polk Audio CS400i
Rear L/R speakers: Polk Audio TL3 high performance satellite speakers
Outside speakers: Polk Audio Atrium 6 Speakers
Receiver set to Manual configuration Front 2 Large, Center Large, sub, Rear surround Small (not surround back, but I'm not sure if this is right, tried both ways and it didn't seem to make a difference)

I am still not happy with the sound at all. The bass is lacking, unlike before. The movie sound is lacking, unlike before. I will say I have noticed that if I put an older movie in, something early 2000s or older, it is much better, I can actually hear jets flying over head and cars wizzing by, but not on any newer movies at all.

I am thinking of Buying an Onkyo TX-NR838. I think this would be a good one, but I'm not sure. I know Onkyo has complaints about the HDMI ports going bad, but upon research, so do the Pioneer Elites, the Denons, and so do The Yamahas, and it is universal across the board, on the cheap lines all the way to the expensive ones, so I have decided whatever buy, I'll just buy the longest extended warranty I can find.

Do you think the Onkyo TX-NR838 will be good for my speaker set up, or should I get a different one? Is there a way these speakers should be set up or wired that would be best?

I was at a friends last night, he had a sound bar, 2 cheap book shelf speakers, and a sub, and his system sounded amazing, it's really frustrating to have this much money in my setup, and have someone that has a $600 set up sound that much better.

honestaquarian · January 2016

If the receiver doesn't suite the speakers then you will NEVER get the sound that you want out of that setup.That is pretty much EXACTLY what is happening here.
Time to find another receiver.
Onkyo doesn't make the 838 anymore.

http://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=TX-RZ800&class=Receiver&source=prodClass

honestaquarian · January 2016

http://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=TX-RZ800&class=Receiver&source=prodClass

honestaquarian · January 2016

Welcome to the forum btw

nooshinjohn · January 2016

Pioneer Elite or upper level Marantz should at least get you going in the right direction. A separate high quality two channel amp will also work wonders. Look for Parasound, Adcom, Sunfire or other similar amp on the used market to save some coin.

What is the budget?

Nightfall · January 2016

I'm going to have to disagree. Yes, the RX-V's are weak and not great but we're talking about self powered subwoofers here. There should still be plenty of bass.

tonyb · January 2016

Could be time for some new speakers. The 2000i's are fairly old and possible the internal bass amps have gone kaput.

Play some music heavy in the lower bass and see if you get any. The subwoofer section of those speakers was never really meant to act as a separate subwoofer but to simply augment the lower bass.

Get yourself a dedicated subwoofer like a Polk micro-pro line or DSW line. SVS and HSU are also good alternatives.

If you can find a pair of used, the RTI8's or RTIA5's would work well with a separate sub and take you a few notches up what your used to when the 2000's where in their prime.

Also, might just be a set up issue. Read the manual on your receiver....twice, cover to cover. Different receivers have their own way of processing signals. Pay close attention to the subwoofer settings.

A separate dedicated subwoofer will always trounce those internal power subs in speakers.

FIST_Racing · January 2016

honestaquarian wrote: »

Onkyo doesn't make the 838 anymore.

http://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=TX-RZ800&class=Receiver&source=prodClass

I'm confused, It was on the Onkyo product page for receivers that I found the 838 and read their page, the manual, and the Top pick review.

onkyousa.com/Products/prod_class.php?class=Receiver&source=prodClassSide

It's the 10th receiver down from the top

onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=TX-NR838&class=Receiver&source=prodClass

Here's a direct link.

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Pioneer Elite or upper level Marantz should at least get you going in the right direction. A separate high quality two channel amp will also work wonders. Look for Parasound, Adcom, Sunfire or other similar amp on the used market to save some coin.

What is the budget?

Once I found out Onkyo now makes Pioneer Elite I looked even harder into Onkyo, but didn't rule out the Elite, so I'm not opposed to the Elite anymore, but rather comparing them side by side since they are pretty much the same. I considered a second amp, but then I also remember that it used to sound beautiful on just one amp (receiver), so I don't think I should need a second amp if I can just buy the right one. Budget is somewhat flexible. I was looking into the $800 to $1000 range units, but am not opposed to spending more for the right unit. I am just afraid to spend more and have the same issue.

Nightfall wrote: »

I'm going to have to disagree. Yes, the RX-V's are weak and not great but we're talking about self powered subwoofers here. There should still be plenty of bass.

That's what I was thinking too. I really think it's more of a "signal" thing because it's not just the bass, it's everything that is lacking, it's also not a volume thing, it's a quality of sound/type of sound thing.

tonyb wrote: »

Could be time for some new speakers. The 2000i's are fairly old and possible the internal bass amps have gone kaput.

Play some music heavy in the lower bass and see if you get any. The subwoofer section of those speakers was never really meant to act as a separate subwoofer but to simply augment the lower bass.

Get yourself a dedicated subwoofer like a Polk micro-pro line or DSW line. SVS and HSU are also good alternatives.

If you can find a pair of used, the RTI8's or RTIA5's would work well with a separate sub and take you a few notches up what your used to when the 2000's where in their prime.

Also, might just be a set up issue. Read the manual on your receiver....twice, cover to cover. Different receivers have their own way of processing signals. Pay close attention to the subwoofer settings.

A separate dedicated subwoofer will always trounce those internal power subs in speakers.

I switched the receiver this morning, after reading this, to play just stereo and put some music on. The bass does work, it rattles the house a bit. It sounds good in this mode.

One of the selling points of the 2000i's was that you didn't need a separate sub since it does have 4 8 inch subs in the pair. I'm just trying to get the system back to sounding amazing like it was before I got this receiver. After I can get it like it was, it's quite possible I'll eventually add a 12 inch sub, just because I know it would add a sound range that the 8 inch subs can't hit.

I can't tell you how many times I have read the manual over the past 2 years, and how many settings I have changed trying anything I can hoping that something would work.

Based on the responses, I think my questions must have focused on the bass issue too much. I apologize, I must have worded it wrong, it's more of a overall lack of sound and quality, not a volume thing because it does get loud, it's more of a flat issue, like the entire system lacks substance or feeling. I can best describe it like this. When I drive my wife's Infiniti, music sounds amazing, it fills the air all around me and different speakers have different sound, or depth. there are different sounds coming from all around me. Now, If I hop into my old 1999 Dodge Ram, I can play the same music, and play it just as loud, but it's flat and boring and doesn't have the same sound at all. Basically, my Yamaha makes my system sound like an old farm truck, lol.

tonyb · January 2016

Maybe your preferences for better sound have just changed. Happens as we age too.

Another thing to check is your connections. If your using bare wire, check to make sure none of the rubber coating on the speaker cables is stuck inside the binding posts on the speakers or receiver. That will dull the sound pronto. Do you have the brass speaker jumpers in place between the top and bottom posts ? The sound isn't going to be great, but still shouldn't be as bad as you describe, something is off kilter.

If it sounds good for music in stereo, that leaves receiver settings for movies. Are you using a Blu-ray player ? How is it connected to the receiver ? When you used the auto calibration, was the mic set in your listening position at ear level ? Was the house dead quiet when you did this ? Did you set up the Blu-ray player....how the sound is to be output ?

Those built in subs will not take the place of a dedicated subwoofer, period. In your receiver settings, set the fronts to large, subwoofer as "no". Speaker levels back to 0 and see how it sounds. You also have to set up the input the blu-ray player is on. If it's set on input 2 lets say on the receiver, you have to set up the input and tell it how to process the signal.

nooshinjohn · January 2016

FIST_Racing wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Pioneer Elite or upper level Marantz should at least get you going in the right direction. A separate high quality two channel amp will also work wonders. Look for Parasound, Adcom, Sunfire or other similar amp on the used market to save some coin.

What is the budget?

Once I found out Onkyo now makes Pioneer Elite I looked even harder into Onkyo, but didn't rule out the Elite, so I'm not opposed to the Elite anymore, but rather comparing them side by side since they are pretty much the same. I considered a second amp, but then I also remember that it used to sound beautiful on just one amp (receiver), so I don't think I should need a second amp if I can just buy the right one. Budget is somewhat flexible. I was looking into the $800 to $1000 range units, but am not opposed to spending more for the right unit. I am just afraid to spend more and have the same issue lol.

Pioneer and Onkyo merged in March 2015, and according to the press, we won't find Onkyo made Pioneer product until late 2016 or early 2017, so you should be treating them as separate product lines. Take a look at the SC-89... It has all you could need and thensome. I too was running Yamaha for many years. I went from the RXV2090 to an RXV-865 because of the hdmi connections an my wonderful sounding setup turned to crap as soon as I plugged it in. The Elite SC models straightened that out and I never looked back.

FIST_Racing · January 2016

tonyb wrote: »

Maybe your preferences for better sound have just changed. Happens as we age too.

Another thing to check is your connections. If your using bare wire, check to make sure none of the rubber coating on the speaker cables is stuck inside the binding posts on the speakers or receiver. That will dull the sound pronto. Do you have the brass speaker jumpers in place between the top and bottom posts ? The sound isn't going to be great, but still shouldn't be as bad as you describe, something is off kilter.

If it sounds good for music in stereo, that leaves receiver settings for movies. Are you using a Blu-ray player ? How is it connected to the receiver ? When you used the auto calibration, was the mic set in your listening position at ear level ? Was the house dead quiet when you did this ? Did you set up the Blu-ray player....how the sound is to be output ?

Those built in subs will not take the place of a dedicated subwoofer, period. In your receiver settings, set the fronts to large, subwoofer as "no". Speaker levels back to 0 and see how it sounds. You also have to set up the input the blu-ray player is on. If it's set on input 2 lets say on the receiver, you have to set up the input and tell it how to process the signal.

*Connections have been checked, and wires have been changed. It didn't help so I moved on at that point.

*Bass speaker jumper was in place as option 1 stated to do in the manual for my setups 1 and 2, then I switched to not connected (option 2 in manual) for my setups as described above for 3rd setup on forward. using the line level option. That was the only way it would have any bass worth reporting. I plan to to switch it back when I get the new receiver.

* Blue Ray (PS4) is connected via HDMI to HDMI 3, Blue Ray (PS3) is connected via HDMI to HDMI 1 , Uverse receiver is connected via HDMI to HDMI 2. TV out is connected via HDMI through the HDMI ARC port. I have checked the sound output setting on all of them.

* Auto calibration was set in my seat on the couch and I stacked pillows until the mic could be even with my ears, I made everyone in the house go outside during the setup and made sure everything was off in the house so it would be completely quiet

* I will add a dedicated sub at some point in the near future, time depending on how much I spend on the new receiver, I might need a few months to recoup.

* I will change the settings back to this as you have suggested on subwoofer no, thank you for this.

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Pioneer and Onkyo merged in March 2015, and according to the press, we won't find Onkyo made Pioneer product until late 2016 or early 2017, so you should be treating them as separate product lines. Take a look at the SC-89... It has all you could need and thensome. I too was running Yamaha for many years. I went from the RXV2090 to an RXV-865 because of the hdmi connections an my wonderful sounding setup turned to crap as soon as I plugged it in. The Elite SC models straightened that out and I never looked back.

I didn't know this, all the articles I found were 2013 so I just assumed that's when it started. Thank you for giving me some direction on where to go. Time for me to download that manual and read into it.

FIST_Racing · January 2016

I spent the past 6 day researching after reading everyone's comments above. Thank you again for giving me direction to go towards. As of 2 days ago I had pretty much decided the Elite SC-89 until I was doing a comparison with another Onkyo I was looking at. It was at this point that I discovered that the SC-89 doesn't have HDMI HDCP 2.2 I wasn't 100% sure how important this was, so I kept reading articles until it made me realize how important it really is. Now it's back to the drawing board to find another receiver. Today marks day 27 of trying to find the right receiver, lol.

FIST_Racing · January 2016

If I understand this correctly, when looking for any 4k capable device you should not only make sure it has HDCP 2.2, but if you want full bandwidth you need to make sure it's 18Gbps. A lot of this info is hidden, but a general giveaway (to search for in the manual specs) is Full 4K 60 Hz (YCbCr 4:4:4) is full color and operates at 18Gbps, while advertised 4K 60 Hz (YCbCr 4:2:0) is half color and operates at 10.2Gbps

Looking at Onkyo, they seem to have their TX-RZ as a higher tier than their TX-NR line. It's confusing because some other forums say it's a lower line and some of their TX-NR line is priced higher than the TX-RZ line, but when comparing them, they put them in order from lowest end to highest end left to right, and the specs on the TX-RZ line are much better, other than quantity of available channels. The TX RZ line is also the only line that supports Full 4K 60 Hz (YCbCr 4:4:4) where as the TX-NR line only supports 4K 60 Hz (YCbCr 4:2:0) half color

The SC-89 was already about $500 over my budget, but I was willing to make it happen, until I found out it was old tech that wouldn't work out for me.
The replacement for that is the SC-99 is $1500 over my budget, I just can't do it, one model down, the SC-97, while I think would fit me needs, is $1000 over my budget, I can't justify that

The TX-RZ900 can be had for $400 over my budget, or I guess I should say right at my new budget, lol. I'm not big on that it's only 7.2 channel, but Atmos isn't in my future. Onkyo doesn't seem to have any new receivers that are higher than 7.2

I was sold on wanting an Elite a few days ago, but now I think I need to really consider the Onkyo.

What are your thoughts?

tonyb · January 2016

Your putting too much emphasis on the 4k thing. Many 4k TV's still don't have all that and some of those numbers only apply to those who are gamers.

I wouldn't base my decision around 4k since there is so little material to watch in it anyway. Plus the way technology moves, it's a very good possibility that what ever you buy today will be outdated in 5 years.

FIST_Racing · January 2016

From what I understand, if you get a 2.2 but it's not at 18Gbps, then everything transmits at 10.2Gbps, not just the 4k, so that would be like running an old HDMI 1.4 Since my son and I do game on it, that would effect us.

tonyb · January 2016

FIST_Racing wrote: »

From what I understand, if you get a 2.2 but it's not at 18Gbps, then everything transmits at 10.2Gbps, not just the 4k, so that would be like running an old HDMI 1.4 Since my son and I do game on it, that would effect us.

Then you should make sure the TV is compatible first with all that. If the receiver is and the TV not, you may run into issues.

I covered this somewhat, albeit not great depth in the Tv posts I've made. When you start digging into the details, many 4k TV's are not up to the most and best standards. Plus, those standards still have room to change even more which even if everything is up to snuff today, tomorrow is a different story. This revolves around you having to buy gear on a consistent basis every x amount of years. So if you have to do that, spending 2k on a receiver doesn't seem logical.

You can always run your 4k gamer stuff directly to the TV for video and audio to the receiver. Takes the whole 4k criteria out of the equation for a receiver. If your screen isn't big enough, or you sit too far away, you lose the benefit of 4K too. Also, most TV screens in 4k are either 8 bit or 10 bit, pay attention to the screen used in whatever brand you have or choose. Some are better than others too for gamers with refresh rates.

I bought a 4k tv not for the 4k, but for the upscaling of 1080p to 2160, because that's the majority of what everyone will be watching anyway. Some blu-ray players have dual HDMI outs to run video to the TV and audio to the receiver. Not sure about gaming consoles. There are no new audio codecs with 4k over what you get with a blu-ray 1080p that I'm aware of, so audio should be a non-issue. Even an old 1.4 hdmi can transmit 4k video, it's the processor in the TV and the screen that's the determinating factor. That's my understanding of it anyway.

Go to a local store and have them hook up a game to some TV's and look for yourself. some of the numbers your putting emphasis on are more so marketing hype or protocols for future broadcast TV. Which 4k in broadcast TV is still light years away.

tonyb · January 2016

Here's a run down in general....

http://www.cnet.com/news/should-you-get-a-4k-tv-for-gaming/

There is simply a lot of variables than just saying you want a receiver with all the right 4k push buttons.

FIST_Racing · January 2016

Thank you Tony. I'll keep digging around. The more I read about the RZ-900 the more I like it, seems good on reviews on the different forums too. It'll stay on my list and I'll keep searching for another week and if nothing else catches my eye I'll pull the trigger and see how it does for me.

tonyb · January 2016

Please do....keep digging that is. The more you dig, the more you'll see compatibility issues in this 4k realm.

That's the one thing I always hated about technology, it changes so fast that stuff you paid good coin for just 3 years ago can become obsolete in a heartbeat. The things you have to be careful about as a gamer, are matching the specs of the game to the TV more so than the receiver. Some games will play, some won't, depends....and that's the aggravating part. Some TV's have all the right specs for gaming, but throw in a screen that can't display the full resolution....it's just crazy trying to get it all straight in one package. Good luck to you....and try not to pull your hair out.

Brewslee · March 28

I paired with a Cambridge Audio CXA 81amp. Sounds great. I think the real problem is the nature of tower speakers. They are so directional you have to find the “sweet spot”. With other Bose-like system the sound is more ambient IMHO. I consider my system the entry into hi end

How to best connect My Polk speakers, and which receiver?

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