Tube Equipment Power Button Best Practices

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bcwsrt
bcwsrt Posts: 1,604
in Electronics
Curious how frequently you guys power up and down your tube equipment?

I think I may be cycling mine on/off too frequently for the best tube life. If it's going to be another "X" amount of hours before I can listen again in the same day, I usually turn my Rogue Audio Conus amp off. If I'm basically just taking time out to eat dinner or run an errand or whatever, I'll leave it on during that time. I usually only power it down and back up again once in the same 24 hour period. I'm not constantly turning it on and off multiple times a day.

But ... is it "better" to just leave it on for the day and wait until the evening to shut it down for good (I guess, whether I actually listened again later that day, or not)?

Brian

One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM
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  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,280
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    It shouldn't be a problem if you only turn it on/off once or twice a day.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,588
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    I turn my tubed pre-amp on Friday after work, it doesn't get turned off until Sunday night. The exception being if I'm leaving my home it gets turned off. You do have power tubes, they are pricey ! I would not want to be turning them on/off multiple times daily. In my experience it takes a good 20-30 minutes of good warm up of indirectly heated tubes to get up to temp and sound their best.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,082
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    Don't leave tube gear running unattended. Today's gear vs. vintage gear is pretty robust so powering on/off isn't as much of an issue.

    You will get better sound if the tubes are warmed up. I tend to leave my gear on once it's powered up until I have to leave or go to bed. Any tube gear is turned off.

    Much less chance of an issue with signal tubes like in my pre and dac if left on unattended. I wouldn't worry too much as you're not turning on/ off several times a day over time.

    H9

    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,808
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    Slight change to Brock's comment. Don't leave a tube amp running unattended.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,608
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    What's the worst that could happen? Isn't this equipment fused?
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,348
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    Yeah, I will have no issues with leaving signal tubed gear on but never a tube amp when away from the house. That's just me based on experience with tube amps. I saw one light up in front of me and release the magic smoke once, and that's the only lesson I needed to learn.

    I'll leave the tubed pre and tubed PS for said pre on when I am at home but taking an extended break (up to around 3-4 or so hours) but if I know it will be longer than that? I usually shut her down too.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,808
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    Clipdat wrote: »
    What's the worst that could happen? Isn't this equipment fused?

    All sorts of bad juju can happen including a fire. Fuses don't always prevent damage from occurring.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,053
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    I have a switch.
    On the wall.
    Controls everything.
    Srsly.

    :)
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  • bcwsrt
    bcwsrt Posts: 1,604
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    Thanks as always, guys. Good distinction about the power tubes and "magic smoke." Sounds like I'm not too far off with my current practice, but I'll make some adjustments with this input.

    This morning I had about an hour where I wanted to kill some time with an LP before I left the house, but decided against it because I knew I'd be turning it back on again for an extended period this evening. Might be over-thinking it, but just trying not to inflict any unintended harm.

    Brian

    One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM
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  • rebelsoul
    rebelsoul Posts: 756
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    You have a power tube go out it could start a fire. I was sitting listening and one of my power tubes went solar (extremely bright) started smoking ran turned off. Took out one tube and one transformer. If I wasn't there it could of been fire.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,348
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    Not with your new BAT amps, I hope!

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • bcwsrt
    bcwsrt Posts: 1,604
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    So, what actually smokes? The tube glass isn’t shattering, is it?

    Brian

    One-owner Polk Audio RTA 15TL speakers refreshed w/ Sonicap, Vishay/Mills and Cardas components by "pitdogg2," "xschop" billet tweeter plates and BH5 | Stereo REL Acoustics T/5x subwoofers w/ Bassline Blue cables | Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III integrated tube amp | Technics SL-1210G turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 MM cart | Sony CDP-508ESD CD player (as a transport) | LampizatOr Baltic 4 tube DAC | Nordost & DH Labs cables/interconnects | APC H15 Power Conditioner | GIK Acoustics room treatments | Degritter RCM
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,082
    edited December 2023
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    bcwsrt wrote: »
    So, what actually smokes? The tube glass isn’t shattering, is it?

    The electronics in the path of the tube, like wire insulation, resistor material, capacitors, PCB's, etc. I've never seen a power tube glass envelope explode, but I've seen some mighty fine fireworks inside the tube glass before she went super nova! (red plate)

    There are safeguards in place, but once you start to smell that acrid "hot" smell of something smoldering, it's time to shut her down.

    You don't have the drama when a signal tube goes. I had one die on me the other day (one I just received). On the signal tube a couple of the wires from the pins to the grid were repeatedly flashing (about 4 times) then the tube went dead. Had I not had the top off the pre watching as I powered up, I would have missed it.

    Many Euro tubes will have a wire from the pin to the grid flash and glow once upon power up, which is totally normal. If it's one or more flashing orange and then not and then orange and then not, etc, it's probably a bad tube. I bought (3) of the same tube lot, the seller was awesome and refunded 1/3 of the total cost (including shipping and tax on EBAY). The other (2) tubes worked flawlessly.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,588
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    I had a CBS 5692 short out on my tube buffer overnight one weekend long ago. It sent some very LOUD John Henry hammering sounds through my speakers. It will wake you the EFF up quickly! I have seen a Bendix 6106 rectifier go thermo nuclear, it was SPECTACULAR in the visual arts but at the same time very detrimental to the preamp. Tube stuff is pretty stable in most regards, BUT the fire in the bottle can get wild quick.
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  • rebelsoul
    rebelsoul Posts: 756
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    treitz3 wrote: »
    Not with your new BAT amps, I hope!

    Tom

    No not with the bat amps (thank God).
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,053
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    Had a 6SN7 self-immolate one night listenin' to the SE 2A3 amp. Mind you, we had company, and I was showing it off. :# No harm done, and plenty of spare 6SN7s in the basement -- but the resulting pop was rather impressive with loudspeakers of ca. 104 dB per watt @ 1 meter sensitivity. :|
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,082
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    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    I had a CBS 5692 short out on my tube buffer overnight one weekend long ago. It sent some very LOUD John Henry hammering sounds through my speakers. It will wake you the EFF up quickly! I have seen a Bendix 6106 rectifier go thermo nuclear, it was SPECTACULAR in the visual arts but at the same time very detrimental to the preamp. Tube stuff is pretty stable in most regards, BUT the fire in the bottle can get wild quick.

    Really, a 6106......they are built better than tanks. I bet it was a spectacular display. I bet it's only 1 of a handful that ever failed. Just goes to show you, nothing is infallible.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,373
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    In my case it depends on the design of the equipment with the two pieces of tube gear I have left. The only choice with my preamp is off or on and it needs a good hour of on time to sound best. My tube amp has the option of being on, off, or in standby mode. In standby mode the tubes are partly energized. It doesn't need warm up time if it's kept in standby mode but I always turn it off if I'm not actively using it anyway. Re-tubing that amp with the same tubes now would be more than the amp itself is worth.
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  • motorstereo
    motorstereo Posts: 2,052
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    It's amazing how much smoke can come out of just a single resistor. I found that out when I mistakenly put a cheapo kt88 with no notch on the bottom one pin off. The tube started vibrating, turned green and bright red and then a lot of smoke from a single resistor started pouring out. All this heart stopping nonsense took a matter of maybe 5 seconds. Since that incident I've haven't left a tube amp on without being in the room to monitor it.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,588
    edited December 2023
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    heiney9 wrote: »
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    I had a CBS 5692 short out on my tube buffer overnight one weekend long ago. It sent some very LOUD John Henry hammering sounds through my speakers. It will wake you the EFF up quickly! I have seen a Bendix 6106 rectifier go thermo nuclear, it was SPECTACULAR in the visual arts but at the same time very detrimental to the preamp. Tube stuff is pretty stable in most regards, BUT the fire in the bottle can get wild quick.

    Really, a 6106......they are built better than tanks. I bet it was a spectacular display. I bet it's only 1 of a handful that ever failed. Just goes to show you, nothing is infallible.

    Rich @SCompRacer at one time had a picture of one red plating. Yes they are built like tanks BUT they are as I recently found out from Paul Hart. They are a directly heated rectifier tube unlike others that are indirectly heated. According to him they were built for high altitude aircraft. That little wire in there carries LOTS of voltzzzz B):#
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  • GlennDog
    GlennDog Posts: 3,087
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    Dee-O Double G . . . @pitdogg2 . .. that's interesting, as I'm researching my recti options for my Lampi. I've got a 6106 that I haven't rolled, yet . . . and yet I've got a line on another good one I'll prolly be going for..

    I just ordered a Brimar CV1863 and I'm on the hunt for a Valvo AZ1

    Keep An Eye On Those Valves!
    AC Regenerator PS Audio PerfectWave Power Plant 10
    Source Lumin U1 Mini into Lampi Baltic 4
    Pre Cary SLP-05
    Power Rogue M180 Dark monos
    Mains Salk HT2-TL
    Rythmik F12
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  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,280
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    GlennDog wrote: »
    Dee-O Double G . . . @pitdogg2 . .. that's interesting, as I'm researching my recti options for my Lampi. I've got a 6106 that I haven't rolled, yet . . . and yet I've got a line on another good one I'll prolly be going for..

    I just ordered a Brimar CV1863 and I'm on the hunt for a Valvo AZ1

    Keep An Eye On Those Valves!

    The lampi dac is able to use 4 and 5 volt rectifier tubes?
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  • HzTweaker
    HzTweaker Posts: 725
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    GlennDog wrote: »
    that's interesting, as I'm researching my recti options for my Lampi.

    You should consult your doctor about that. lol :D
    2ch rig:Speakers: LSi9s with VR3's Fortress modsPreamplifier: Parasound P5Amplifier: Parasound A23CDP: Pioneer DV-563ACables: Wireworld Equinox 7 XLR ICs, Wireworld Ultraviolet 7 USB, AudioQuest Q2s, AudioQuest NRG X(preamp)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,082
    edited December 2023
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    Rectifiers can make a huge difference in sound. I've rolled many GZ34's, 6X4's and 5Z4's and many variants. They all made a noticeable difference in sound.

    The 50's Brimar CV1863 made in Footscray is by far the best 5Z4 variant I've heard. I have a pair squirreled away for a rainy day. I also used the Bendix 6106 in place of the 5Z4. It too was winner but it's more of a 5Y3 variant, so look up the specs.

    As far as 6X4's go, I still need to try an old Brimar, but the 50's Tung Sol's with D getters sound amazing. They made early 50's version with a double vertical D getter and to me those are the best TS's. Edging out the single D getters. Super hard to find. Mullard made EZ90's are also excellent.

    GZ34's (5AR4) the best is any of the early Mullard manufactured f31's or f32's(build codes). There are like 7 or 8 variations/builds of the f31's and f32's which can have any label stamped on the glass. I have squirreled away a pair of RCA branded 1960's f32's. They are too expensive now to let go, and then try to replace. They last forever too.

    Of course the holy grail is the metal base Mullard.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,053
    edited December 2023
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    invalid wrote: »
    GlennDog wrote: »
    Dee-O Double G . . . @pitdogg2 . .. that's interesting, as I'm researching my recti options for my Lampi. I've got a 6106 that I haven't rolled, yet . . . and yet I've got a line on another good one I'll prolly be going for..

    I just ordered a Brimar CV1863 and I'm on the hunt for a Valvo AZ1

    Keep An Eye On Those Valves!

    The lampi dac is able to use 4 and 5 volt rectifier tubes?

    Four volt heaters? I am sure there were some for series string (transformerless, i.e., "killer") electronics (probably mostly cheap TVs) but... jeepers... :p
    I am actually gonna go take a look.

    EDIT: I just looked at the 1963 RCA Receiving Tubes manual (RC-22) and didn't see any 4V rectifiers. Not an exhaustive search, of course, but a datapoint, nonetheless. ;)


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  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,280
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    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    invalid wrote: »
    GlennDog wrote: »
    Dee-O Double G . . . @pitdogg2 . .. that's interesting, as I'm researching my recti options for my Lampi. I've got a 6106 that I haven't rolled, yet . . . and yet I've got a line on another good one I'll prolly be going for..

    I just ordered a Brimar CV1863 and I'm on the hunt for a Valvo AZ1

    Keep An Eye On Those Valves!

    The lampi dac is able to use 4 and 5 volt rectifier tubes?

    Four volt heaters? I am sure there were some for series string (transformerless, i.e., "killer") electronics (probably mostly cheap TVs) but... jeepers... :p
    I am actually gonna go take a look.

    EDIT: I just looked at the 1963 RCA Receiving Tubes manual (RC-22) and didn't see any 4V rectifiers. Not an exhaustive search, of course, but a datapoint, nonetheless. ;)


    The az1 someone mentioned has a 4 volt heater.
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  • GlennDog
    GlennDog Posts: 3,087
    edited December 2023
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    invalid wrote: »
    GlennDog wrote: »

    I just ordered a Brimar CV1863 and I'm on the hunt for a Valvo AZ1

    Keep An Eye On Those Valves!

    The lampi dac is able to use 4 and 5 volt rectifier tubes?

    in short . . . yes. Soo many options. When I got my feet whet with rolling, I didn't even know tube adapters were "a thing"

    there is a somewhat lengthy thread on the What's Best Forum for all things Lampizator Baltic 3 and 4 iterations. This is a very flexible DAC, in terms of tube rolling ...and sounds phenom!

    Lampi actually has an acronym for a different offering of theirs . . . TRP ...Tube Rollers Paradise.
    Frankly, Baltic 3/4 has a myriad of rolling options. Maybe not as many options, but it has a lot of 'em!

    for those so inclined . . . https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/lampizator-baltic-3.32079/

    AC Regenerator PS Audio PerfectWave Power Plant 10
    Source Lumin U1 Mini into Lampi Baltic 4
    Pre Cary SLP-05
    Power Rogue M180 Dark monos
    Mains Salk HT2-TL
    Rythmik F12
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  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,280
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    Kind of like my dac, I can use 866A, 83, 80, 280, 283, 2A3, 300B, 50, 3B28, 1616.....etc, and many other compatible tubes, can also hit the switch to 5 volts and then use the mainstream rectifiers
    with 4-8 pin adapter can use octal rectifier tubes: 5U4G , 274B , 5R4G, 5AR4 ...etc.
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,352
    edited December 2023
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    pitdogg2 wrote: »

    Rich @SCompRacer at one time had a picture of one.....

    I've posted many tube pics. You mean this one? This was an NOS 5Y3GT in a Hagerman Coronet I built for Carl. I had it flipped over checking power on voltages and snapped a pic as I never looked at a rectifier upside down before. It didn't eat tubes so must be normal?

    qnpalebo024k.png
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • GlennDog
    GlennDog Posts: 3,087
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    invalid wrote: »
    Kind of like my dac, I can use 866A, 83, 80, 280, 283, 2A3, 300B, 50, 3B28, 1616.....etc, and many other compatible tubes, can also hit the switch to 5 volts and then use the mainstream rectifiers
    with 4-8 pin adapter can use octal rectifier tubes: 5U4G , 274B , 5R4G, 5AR4 ...etc.

    what DAC are you rock'n?
    AC Regenerator PS Audio PerfectWave Power Plant 10
    Source Lumin U1 Mini into Lampi Baltic 4
    Pre Cary SLP-05
    Power Rogue M180 Dark monos
    Mains Salk HT2-TL
    Rythmik F12
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