Any plumbers out there?

muncybob · November 2022

We turn off our electric water heater from November until about March sometime as we heat our water in those months with the boiler. I've been draining the heater tank and refilling in spring, but I've read that this is a waste of time?

Nightfall · November 2022

Ivan knows a thing or two.

Gardenstater · November 2022

I don't think it is a waste of time. The idea is to get some of the sediment and scaling minerals out of the bottom of the tank that tend to deposit on the heating element. That makes the heating element have to be hotter to heat the water the same amount because of the reduced thermal conductivity. That makes the element possibly burn out sooner and wastes energy.

Gardenstater · November 2022

While you have it drained, you could go in there with a camera like a laparoscopic surgeon and assess the scale levels on the heating element and if it looks bad you could de-scale it with a strong solution of food grade citric acid. When the pH stops rising it is good to go.🤣

VR3 · November 2022

I know on my water heater, the heating elements can be removed from the outside and are very inexpensive to change

Gardenstater · November 2022

VR3 wrote: »

I know on my water heater, the heating elements can be removed from the outside and are very inexpensive to change

Good point, I have never owned anything but natural gas ones. That would be the easiest way to descale it too, assuming there are no complications with removal and resealing.

The other thing to be attended to, which almost nobody ever does, is the anode rod. I think most people don't have the overhead clearance to even remove them unless they are mostly gone. Then you can put an articulated one as a replacement. Could see the condition with a camera perhaps.

msg · November 2022

Gardenstater wrote: »

While you have it drained, you could go in there with a camera like a laparoscopic surgeon and assess the scale levels on the heating element and if it looks bad you could de-scale it with a strong solution of food grade citric acid. When the pH stops rising it is good to go.🤣

dude, what kind of drugs are you on and where do you get them?

xschop · November 2022

^^^He's right on the money with the anhydrous citric acid as a descaler.^^^

How often are we supposed to remove and clean the sacrificial anode rod? Never looked into it since I replaced my own Natty Gas heater last year.

Gardenstater · November 2022

msg wrote: »

Gardenstater wrote: »

While you have it drained, you could go in there with a camera like a laparoscopic surgeon and assess the scale levels on the heating element and if it looks bad you could de-scale it with a strong solution of food grade citric acid. When the pH stops rising it is good to go.🤣

dude, what kind of drugs are you on and where do you get them?

It was said mostly in jest. However, with a very expensive commercial system that could cost many thousands to replace and run, maintenance is important.

When you have a natural gas water heater, AND super hard water like I am unfortunate to have, scale is a very serious problem. I actually had my hot water pipe clog up with scale right at my water heater outlet and I had to jump through some diagnostic hoops to determine that must be the location of the clog. It was closed up tight with scale when I opened up the pipe. There were no hot showers for a few weeks in the dead of winter for me. The bottom of natural gas hot water heaters scale up quite readily and that is the interface between the gas burner below and the water to be heated inside, with no access except through the drain valve. Citric acid is actually the recommended de-scaling solution.

Gardenstater · November 2022

xschop wrote: »

^^^He's right on the money with the anhydrous citric acid as a descaler.^^^

How often are we supposed to remove and clean the sacrificial anode rod? Never looked into it since I replaced my own Natty Gas heater last year.

As did I and you got me curious since that is a he. ll. I don't want to repeat any sooner than necessary. Here's what my manual says:

msg · November 2022

Gardenstater wrote: »

msg wrote: »

Gardenstater wrote: »

While you have it drained, you could go in there with a camera like a laparoscopic surgeon and assess the scale levels on the heating element and if it looks bad you could de-scale it with a strong solution of food grade citric acid. When the pH stops rising it is good to go.🤣

dude, what kind of drugs are you on and where do you get them?

It was said mostly in jest. However, with a very expensive commercial system that could cost many thousands to replace and run, maintenance is important.

When you have a natural gas water heater, AND super hard water like I am unfortunate to have, scale is a very serious problem. I actually had my hot water pipe clog up with scale right at my water heater outlet and I had to jump through some diagnostic hoops to determine that must be the location of the clog. It was closed up tight with scale when I opened up the pipe. There were no hot showers for a few weeks in the dead of winter for me. The bottom of natural gas hot water heaters scale up quite readily and that is the interface between the gas burner below and the water to be heated inside, with no access except through the drain valve. Citric acid is actually the recommended de-scaling solution.

So was mine.

pitdogg2 · November 2022

xschop wrote: »

^^^He's right on the money with the anhydrous citric acid as a descaler.^^^

How often are we supposed to remove and clean the sacrificial anode rod? Never looked into it since I replaced my own Natty Gas heater last year.

You wait too many years to do that and you'll never get it out. I wanted to look at the Anode in my bad WH, even with a 6' cheater bar I broke my "GOOD" Craftsman 1/2" socket wrench and broke the socket.....Damn Sears for going out of business! Where's my lifetime replacement? LOL

It actually is a good idea @muncybob to do what you are doing. Be sure to open all your faucets hot water side or both it you turn your whole house water off to drain. Hopefully you just need to shut off the water on the cold water side of the heater, then just the hot faucet side would work to help drain faster to drag more debris out the the water rush. You could also pull your elements to look and descale if needed. LCR (Lime, Calcium, Rust) and a brush after soaking works good.

Make sure it is OFF and Disconnect if you have too.

muncybob · November 2022

Well, good to know I haven't been wasting my time

. So, would the anode rod deteriorate quicker in standing water or with the tank drained?

I've never thought about pulling the heating element, will have to look into that this winter. The low ceiling is a reason I never thought about a new rod but didn't know there are atriculated rods....another thing I'll now look into.

Amazing what you can learn in an audio "club"!

scubalab · November 2022

Hey Bob. You may find the anode rod impossible to remove if the water heater is more than 5 or so years old. I never knew about replacing the anode rod until a year or so ago. I’ve replaced many elements on different water heaters.

Last Spring, we had to do some work on our water heater (bought as a lifetime warranty model from Lowe’s 10-12 years ago) that started with replacing the lower element. Once I got both elements replaced and installed a new control board and thermostats, I thought I’d replace the anode rod. Well, there was no way I could break the thread on it. Even tried an impact wrench. I decided not to mess with it any further. Since our water is fine and there is no hint of a sulfur odor, I just left the original one in place out of fear of breaking something.

Words of caution/advice (may be very obvious) - make sure the breaker for the water heater is off before draining. I learned about 25 years ago that if you inadvertently turn the power back on without the tank being full, you can kiss an element goodbye! Also, invest in a GOOD element wrench or socket. They make ones that are very flat to catch the low profile nut on the element. I tried a cheap one from Lowe’s and it sucked! Found a good one at a plumbing supply store that saved me from a lot of swearing!

Good luck and way to be proactive!

muncybob · November 2022

Well, it's 10+ years old so I guess I won't bother with the anode and hope for the best. We have fairly soft water so it may still be in decent condition?

I disable any breaker when working on anything. I know enough about electricity to get into trouble, unlike my electrician friend who does things that amaze me without getting a shockimg experience.

pitdogg2 · November 2022

FWIW the new rods are segments like a chain for just the reason you mentioned Bob. The old will not be bothered by a low ceiling as it will usually be very easily bendable.

I'll freely admit I've been known to work in electrical stuff live. You must be very very awake aware of your surroundings. I've sparked a screwdriver in half a couple of times.

🥸 ⚡⚡

Gardenstater · November 2022

I think this link is pretty helpful. Magnesium anode rods are best for soft water and aluminum or aluminum/zinc rods are best for hard water. The 10% zinc prevents the sulfur smell. I hope that's the type of anode rod I have because my water is one of the hardest in the nation. The anode rod donates electrons to the tank and in that process it is the thing that corrodes more readily than the steel tank does. I think a good tip would be to get a socket (I need a deep reach) and breaker bar and loosen your rod 1/4 turn and retighten and do that a couple times per year. I may just go ahead and replace mine at 5 years and see how bad it was. I have only 33" of overhead clearance so may have to put a vice grips on the rod and cut it before extracting the whole thing. Then replace with the 3 segmented type. I am also seeing that the warranty on a water heater reflects how heavy duty (more corrosive electron donor metal) the anode rod is. My plumber friend up the street from me neglected to tell me that or didn't know, because he told me the tanks are the same so get the smallest warranty one. I got the 12 year lol.

https://www.empirestateplumbing.com/about-us/news-and-events/34154-what-does-an-anode-rod-do.html

audioluvr · November 2022

muncybob wrote: »

We turn off our electric water heater from November until about March sometime as we heat our water in those months with the boiler. I've been draining the heater tank and refilling in spring, but I've read that this is a waste of time?

That's the best way to do it 👍

muncybob wrote: »

So, would the anode rod deteriorate quicker in standing water?

Yes

Gardenstater · November 2022

Good video and good comments. The author of the video said in comments that anode rods go faster in soft water, which was interesting. I'm not so sure about using teflon tape because I believe it needs to be grounded to tank. Maybe a thin coat of liquid pipe seal or nothing at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIpJDHco7hc

pitdogg2 · November 2022

muncybob Posts: 2,724
November 2
Well, it's 10+ years old so I guess I won't bother with the anode and hope for the best. We have fairly soft water so it may still be in decent condition?

In soft water conditions the reason an anode may deteriorate faster may be because soft water in many cases is acidic water, meaning a pH below 7.0.
Hard water areas have a pH above 7.0 many times it's way above 7.0 in the range of 8.5+. many city water supplies buffer their water up in the 8.0+ region because of older lead pipes within its systems. Anything in the acidic range will start leeching lead into the water supply and into you. If you think back to IIRC Flint Michigan they had changed their water chemistry. The acidity of the new water ate off the scale inside the piping laid down by years of highly alkaline water they had once buffered to. Once that scale was gone the water then started eating into the lead pipes and carrying that lead into everything drinking it.

Soft waters carry very little minerals with it those minerals within the water determine a waters buffering point as to whether it will be hard or soft.

30 yrs as an aquarist you learn a thing or two about water conditions for your wet pets.

Gardenstater · November 2022

I think distilled water and rain water are quite acidic, due to no monovalent or multivalent cations being absent as well as carbon dioxide forming carbonic acid, but what about softened water, where divalent Ca and Mg ions have been replaced with positive monovalent Na ions? I did read that softened water can have a higher electrical conductivity which would seem to promote the travel of electrons from the anode rod, making it corrode faster.

Richard Trethewey uses teflon tape so maybe it's use doesn't prevent electrical contact of the anode rod to the steel tank.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IUNIUZz4Os

Any plumbers out there?

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