Rythmik sub integration help

So I’m in the process of attempting to integrate a Rythmik E15HP sub into my two channel rig and I need some help/guidance from you guys. I’ve done some research but not sure if I’m going about this the correct way.

First off, let me explain what I have done so far...I am running the Rythmik via high level inputs from my amps speaker terminals. I’ve been able to find a nice spot near the front corner of the room where the sub seems to put out plenty of nice bass from. Just so happens it is also a semi nice spot for aesthetics as well. I then set the crossover to 50hz on the sub since my speakers are supposed to go down to 33hz. Next, adjusted the phase on the sub to get the most bass when played in conjunction with my speakers(I believe this means the sub and the woofers from the speakers are now phase aligned?)

Next, and this is where I start getting a little confused... I adjusted the volume output on the sub to match my speakers db output from my listening spot. I ran test tones of 60 hz down to 40 hz and set the sub volume to where it didn’t cause a rise in dB output from what my speakers put out on their own...is this correct? Because if I just run the sub alone it is 15 to 20 dbs lower than that of my speakers. If I try to adjust just the sub output alone to match the speaker bass output then when I reconnect the speakers the bass output goes up quite a bit.

I hope this makes sense to some of you guys...I tend to over analyze things a bit sometimes. All of this was done with a sound analyzer app on my iPhone so I’m sure it’s not perfect. I guess I’m just confused on what exactly I should be shooting for here and any guidance is appreciated.

Comments

  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 45,626
    edited November 2020
    Adjust the sub volume level by using your ears. The correct volume level is you shouldn't know the sub is playing until you mute it or turn it off. Use music not test tones. Dialing in a sub takes time, so be patient.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • Gerres26Gerres26 Posts: 743
    I’m assuming I should do that while playing music and not “test tones”? I guess I should be taking a more common sense approach to this and less of a measured one...like I said, I like to overthink thinks unfortunately
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 45,626
    Gerres26 wrote: »
    I’m assuming I should do that while playing music and not “test tones”? I guess I should be taking a more common sense approach to this and less of a measured one...like I said, I like to overthink thinks unfortunately

    I see the problem. You are overthinking thinks. ;)
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • Gerres26Gerres26 Posts: 743
    Lol...see I told you it was a lot of thinking :D
  • Gerres26Gerres26 Posts: 743
    One question, is the 50hz crossover a good spot for being paired up with speakers spec’d down to 33hz?
  • SCompRacerSCompRacer Posts: 7,248
    edited November 2020
    The issue with test tones is room loading. You may see SPL levels change and give you inaccurate readings due to nulls or peaks from room modes the longer the tone is played. That's why I'm sure Jesse suggested use music.
    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ & Pro 11+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS* Twisted Pear Buffalo III Dual Mono ESS Sabre32 DAC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *

  • msgmsg Posts: 6,378
    Hey Danny, I've been doing some sub research myself lately, and have found that setting up for music isn't as easy as it is with an AVR and sub for HT.

    Does your Rythmik have the H600XLR3 amp on it? I saw a few weeks back that some Rythmik subs have several extra controls to consider that some other subs don't have.

    http://www.rythmikaudio.com/download/XLR3_sealed_quickguide.pdf
    I disabled signatures.
  • Gerres26Gerres26 Posts: 743
    This makes sense because after trying to get the sub to match the speakers exact output, the sub was turned almost all of the way down. I’ve read you shouldn’t be able to tell that the sub is there and that was definitely happening because it was barely on :/
  • SCompRacerSCompRacer Posts: 7,248
    edited November 2020
    I have a large open main level as a two channel listening area. Huge amount of square feet, over 11,000. My speakers are rated down to 25Hz +- 3dB but I don't get +- 3dB at 25 Hz. Your space will determine what your speakers response actually is. My subs are connected to second set of outputs on pre amp.

    Over the years I developed a my way approach. I suggest folks consult a musical instrument chart to determine the lowest frequency of the music they like to listen to. I like to listen to a wide variety of music, classical, pipe organ and even some dubstep. If my system does not reproduce those lower frequencies near +- 3dB, I am missing out.

    I used room software to set up my speakers first. I used Dayton Audio Omnimic v2. That's 300 bucks, comes with calibrated mic. Many use the free software, REW. I think you have to belong to a forum to get it and you do need a mic. My software uses burst tones so the room does not load up like with steady frequency test tones.

    First I set up speakers for best performance, concentrating on the midrange, mic at listening position. It was a slow process as moving speakers a few inches may help one frequency and harm another. Patience and documenting your efforts means you don't repeat your mistakes and find the best overall placement.

    When adding sub(s), they do not have to be between the speakers. I tried corners, behind me, and after much experimentation, best placement was next to and between the speakers, tight against the wall. At listening position you can hear and feel the bass. If I walk slowly toward speakers from listening position, low bass starts to null, cancels at center of room.

    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ & Pro 11+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS* Twisted Pear Buffalo III Dual Mono ESS Sabre32 DAC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *

  • Gerres26Gerres26 Posts: 743
    msg wrote: »
    Hey Danny, I've been doing some sub research myself lately, and have found that setting up for music isn't as easy as it is with an AVR and sub for HT.

    Does your Rythmik have the H600XLR3 amp on it? I saw a few weeks back that some Rythmik subs have several extra controls to consider that some other subs don't have.

    http://www.rythmikaudio.com/download/XLR3_sealed_quickguide.pdf

    Scott, mine has the PEQ3 like this:
    https://www.rythmikaudio.com/download/PEQ3_sealed_quickguide.pdf
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 45,626
    Gerres26 wrote: »
    One question, is the 50hz crossover a good spot for being paired up with speakers spec’d down to 33hz?

    That's another thing best tuned by ear, IME. My office stand mounts rated -3dB is 38Hz. Frequency test tones showed it was closer to 40Hz. After much ear tweaking I found the best setting for the sub was 46Hz.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • WLDockWLDock Posts: 2,840
    edited November 2020
    Gerres26 wrote: »
    All of this was done with a sound analyzer app on my iPhone so I’m sure it’s not perfect. I guess I’m just confused on what exactly I should be shooting for here and any guidance is appreciated.
    Does the app have SPL and RTA (Real Time Analysis) capability? If no RTA then consider getting an app that has it.
    Gerres26 wrote: »
    I’m assuming I should do that while playing music and not “test tones”? I guess I should be taking a more common sense approach to this and less of a measured one...like I said, I like to overthink thinks unfortunately
    Test tones first then music. Then you might have to start all over again.
    Gerres26 wrote: »
    One question, is the 50hz crossover a good spot for being paired up with speakers spec’d down to 33hz?
    Its a complex answer, see my suggestions below.
    Gerres26 wrote: »
    Good! Short of using something like a miniDSP unit via line level inputs, the PEQ3 gives you options given you are using high level inputs.


    I'm sure you've research the process, but these are good steps to follow.
    1) Level match the sub and speakers using warble tones, pink noise, etc
    2) Take a general RTA measurement to see what the overall response is.
    3) Adjust the Sub crossover in either direction to find a smooth RTA response.
    4) Adjust the sub phase to further smooth the RTA response
    5) Adjust the PEQ to tackle room modes and further smooth the RTA response.
    6) Play music and make adjustments based on your ears.
    7) keep repeating the process until it sounds right.

    As far as music, I use a simple upright bass track before I get into any other music tracks. I put the track on repeat and listen and adjust over and over again.
    The track:

    'Bass Resonance Test' from Best of Chesky Jazz and More Audiophile Tests Vol. 2 CD,

    is an AWESOME track. I've used it for car audio, home theater, desk systems, and music systems. One time I used the track to tune a set of cheap Logitech computer speakers. I found that stuffing the speaker and sub cabinet with polyfill made a huge difference in the overall sound and made a tremendous different in tightening up the bass.

    https://open.spotify.com/track/0wOxG25Brj9WKtA3X60egG




    From there I'll listen to songs with great midbass , then songs with low bass, etc. and keep adjusting.

    FAMILY ROOM
    HDTV - Sharp AQUOS LC-70LE600U 70" | AVR/Streamer - Onkyo TX-NR3008 | Amp - Parasound HCA-1203A
    Blu-Ray/Media/Gaming - Sony PS3-320GB / Microsoft Xbox One | Broadcast - Xfinity X1 Platform
    Front Spkrs - Coming...DIY Statement II | Center Spkrs - Coming...DIY Statement II | Rear Spkrs - Artison Portrait LRS
    Sub - DIY Stereo Integrity HT 15 | Sub Amp - Dayton Audio SA1000
    Wire - Audioquest Type 4, BJC Belden 5000 | HDMI - BJC Belden | Power Cables - Pangea | Surge - Monster
  • Gerres26Gerres26 Posts: 743
    WLDock wrote: »
    Gerres26 wrote: »
    All of this was done with a sound analyzer app on my iPhone so I’m sure it’s not perfect. I guess I’m just confused on what exactly I should be shooting for here and any guidance is appreciated.
    Does the app have SPL and RTA (Real Time Analysis) capability? If no RTA then consider getting an app that has it.
    Gerres26 wrote: »
    I’m assuming I should do that while playing music and not “test tones”? I guess I should be taking a more common sense approach to this and less of a measured one...like I said, I like to overthink thinks unfortunately
    Test tones first then music. Then you might have to start all over again.
    Gerres26 wrote: »
    One question, is the 50hz crossover a good spot for being paired up with speakers spec’d down to 33hz?
    Its a complex answer, see my suggestions below.
    Gerres26 wrote: »
    Good! Short of using something like a miniDSP unit via line level inputs, the PEQ3 gives you options given you are using high level inputs.


    I'm sure you've research the process, but these are good steps to follow.
    1) Level match the sub and speakers using warble tones, pink noise, etc
    2) Take a general RTA measurement to see what the overall response is.
    3) Adjust the Sub crossover in either direction to find a smooth RTA response.
    4) Adjust the sub phase to further smooth the RTA response
    5) Adjust the PEQ to tackle room modes and further smooth the RTA response.
    6) Play music and make adjustments based on your ears.
    7) keep repeating the process until it sounds right.

    As far as music, I use a simple upright bass track before I get into any other music tracks. I put the track on repeat and listen and adjust over and over again.
    The track:

    'Bass Resonance Test' from Best of Chesky Jazz and More Audiophile Tests Vol. 2 CD,

    is an AWESOME track. I've used it for car audio, home theater, desk systems, and music systems. One time I used the track to tune a set of cheap Logitech computer speakers. I found that stuffing the speaker and sub cabinet with polyfill made a huge difference in the overall sound and made a tremendous different in tightening up the bass.

    https://open.spotify.com/track/0wOxG25Brj9WKtA3X60egG




    From there I'll listen to songs with great midbass , then songs with low bass, etc. and keep adjusting.

    Thanks for all of this great info, I’m hoping to get some time today to mess around with it and see what happens. There’s definitely more that goes into getting it right than I anticipated, but that’s okay.
  • WLDockWLDock Posts: 2,840
    edited November 2020
    Gerres26 wrote: »
    Thanks for all of this great info, I’m hoping to get some time today to mess around with it and see what happens. There’s definitely more that goes into getting it right than I anticipated, but that’s okay.
    For the record, I've use the track above and my ears to set things up in a 15-30 minutes. It really reveals boominess, resonance, and sub levels that are too hot. I love it because I know first hand what a double bass sounds like in many different types of rooms. The instrument has SO many harmonics and resonance on its own. It can really excite some rooms. So, if I get the double bass sounding right, by the time I get to drums and low synth bass, I'm already pretty darn close.

    The room might dictate how difficult the task.

    Post edited by WLDock on
    FAMILY ROOM
    HDTV - Sharp AQUOS LC-70LE600U 70" | AVR/Streamer - Onkyo TX-NR3008 | Amp - Parasound HCA-1203A
    Blu-Ray/Media/Gaming - Sony PS3-320GB / Microsoft Xbox One | Broadcast - Xfinity X1 Platform
    Front Spkrs - Coming...DIY Statement II | Center Spkrs - Coming...DIY Statement II | Rear Spkrs - Artison Portrait LRS
    Sub - DIY Stereo Integrity HT 15 | Sub Amp - Dayton Audio SA1000
    Wire - Audioquest Type 4, BJC Belden 5000 | HDMI - BJC Belden | Power Cables - Pangea | Surge - Monster
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 24,276
    Best way to integrate a subwoofer in 2 channel is to unplug it 😉

    Takes alot of trial and error and stereo subs are better since bass in 2 channel varies between left and right channel
    - Not Tom

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • Gerres26Gerres26 Posts: 743
    VR3 wrote: »
    Best way to integrate a subwoofer in 2 channel is to unplug it 😉

    Takes alot of trial and error and stereo subs are better since bass in 2 channel varies between left and right channel

    I hear you Trey. It seems there is a 50/50 split in the audiophile world when it comes to running subwoofers in a 2 channel system or not. I was able to grab this sub locally at a good price so I figured it was time for me to decide which side of that 50/50 I will be on while using a quality sub to do so.
  • SCompRacerSCompRacer Posts: 7,248
    edited November 2020
    Gerres26 wrote: »

    I hear you Trey. It seems there is a 50/50 split in the audiophile world when it comes to running subwoofers in a 2 channel system or not.



    You get what you accept.

    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ & Pro 11+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS* Twisted Pear Buffalo III Dual Mono ESS Sabre32 DAC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *

  • Gerres26Gerres26 Posts: 743
    Just a small update...I finally had a little time yesterday morning for some more tweaking with the Rythmik. I still have some work to do I’m sure, but I feel much better about the current integration than I did when I started this thread.

    Using some of the tips from folks here and a bunch of other research, I ended up using music a lot more to tune the sub as opposed to playing test tones and trying to measure with my iPhone. I ended up adjusting the phase from where I thought it was correct, turned the crossover point down some and turned the volume up(it was almost all the way down prior). These changes have helped really add some weight to the lower end but not too much to be overbearing and make the sub noticeable. Also, lowering the crossover point has helped to not muddy up the midrange on the Salks which is what I was worried about the most. They don’t really even need a sub so I didn’t want to ruin the sound I already had. But I can see why some folks say that once you integrate a sub to your setup it is hard to go without. It starts to create a solid foundation for the music even at lower levels.

    I do look forward to messing with it some more and seeing if I can get it even set up even better. Thanks for all the help so far guys.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!