Need help identifying my SDA SRS speakers

13

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  • nooshinjohnnooshinjohn Posts: 22,971
    And all done from the confines of his crypt, which protects is porcelain skin from sunlight... It's bad for vampires you know.
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  • HiDesertNMHiDesertNM Posts: 39
    Looking like I may go with this. A very powerful AVR. "symmetrical, monolithic amplifier design gives it 11 identical amplifier channels, each delivering 205W per channel. A installer says that will give me 400 watts when bi wired or bi amped.. not going to argue that point anymore. But this should do it. He is talking to some enginneers at Polk to see if this will do the trick.

    https://www.us.marantz.com/en-US/shop/avreceivers/sr8012_m
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 45,206
    It was an extremely valid comment based on what you stated and my more extensive experiences in this hobby.

    No worries though, listed.
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  • Viking64Viking64 Posts: 5,503
    HiDesertNM wrote: »
    ....11 identical amplifier channels, each delivering 205W per channel. A installer says that will give me 400 watts when bi wired or bi amped.

    avsv8vdmeikb.gif
  • GardenstaterGardenstater Posts: 1,473
    edited August 13
    HiDesertNM wrote: »
    Looking like I may go with this. A very powerful AVR. "symmetrical, monolithic amplifier design gives it 11 identical amplifier channels, each delivering 205W per channel. A installer says that will give me 400 watts when bi wired or bi amped.. not going to argue that point anymore. But this should do it. He is talking to some enginneers at Polk to see if this will do the trick.

    https://www.us.marantz.com/en-US/shop/avreceivers/sr8012_m

    I'm kind of new to this AVR stuff, but with only one set of "Front" Preamp outs on that thing, how will you horizontally bi-amp it? With a Y-cable? The region labeled 7 has all the preamp outs.

    eeb9ti11uoys.png
    George / NJ

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  • HiDesertNMHiDesertNM Posts: 39
    Did you read the description? "With unparalleled Marantz performance, the new top-of-the-line SR8012 AV receiver is made for those wanting the ultimate audio and video experience. Its symmetrical, monolithic amplifier design gives it 11 identical amplifier channels, each delivering 205W per channel, for seamless surround sound integration. The design also brings to the Marantz AV receiver line a large toroidal transformer, mounted centrally for mechanical balance, a copper plated chassis, selected audio components throughout and high-grade speaker terminals. The SR8012 opens a new chapter in the illustrious history of Marantz AV receivers."

    Seriously, this AVR is no joke. And its weighing in at almost 40 lbs.

    v9u918ndptuo.jpg
  • invalidinvalid Posts: 354
    HiDesertNM wrote: »
    Looking like I may go with this. A very powerful AVR. "symmetrical, monolithic amplifier design gives it 11 identical amplifier channels, each delivering 205W per channel. A installer says that will give me 400 watts when bi wired or bi amped.. not going to argue that point anymore. But this should do it. He is talking to some enginneers at Polk to see if this will do the trick.

    https://www.us.marantz.com/en-US/shop/avreceivers/sr8012_m

    It will make decent sound at low to moderate volume, but it still won't do the srs's justice. I had an adcom gfa555 paired with my Polk sda2A's and that was okay, but when I got a more powerful vintage krell amp it was a whole different speaker. I don't know why you just don't take the advice of the people on this forum and get a decent amp not an avr. You need an amp with a robust power supply to accually hear what they are capable of.
  • nooshinjohnnooshinjohn Posts: 22,971
    edited August 13
    HiDesertNM wrote: »
    Seriously, this AVR is no joke. And its weighing in at almost 40 lbs.

    v9u918ndptuo.jpg

    The receiver is a great piece, but your Polks need more. If they were the 1.2TL's, which are 8ohm, you might just pull it off, but they are the original SRS. You need an amp, or you will be getting a new receiver in a year or so. The product spec pages do not give a 4 ohm rating, therefore it will not be stable under a 4ohm load. If you run it that way the joke will be on you, and it is likely the reason your last setup took a crap to begin with.

    PM me your address and I will send you out a halon fire extinguisher.
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  • audioluvraudioluvr Posts: 2,826
    HiDesertNM wrote: »
    v9u918ndptuo.jpg

    Looks purdy! One thing I don't see is power caps. Lots of big power caps. That's where you get your reserve capacity for most amps. Watts isn't everything.
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  • HiDesertNMHiDesertNM Posts: 39
    invalid wrote: »
    HiDesertNM wrote: »
    Looking like I may go with this. A very powerful AVR. "symmetrical, monolithic amplifier design gives it 11 identical amplifier channels, each delivering 205W per channel. A installer says that will give me 400 watts when bi wired or bi amped.. not going to argue that point anymore. But this should do it. He is talking to some enginneers at Polk to see if this will do the trick.

    https://www.us.marantz.com/en-US/shop/avreceivers/sr8012_m

    It will make decent sound at low to moderate volume, but it still won't do the srs's justice. I had an adcom gfa555 paired with my Polk sda2A's and that was okay, but when I got a more powerful vintage krell amp it was a whole different speaker. I don't know why you just don't take the advice of the people on this forum and get a decent amp not an avr. You need an amp with a robust power supply to accually hear what they are capable of.

    Your comparing a 30 year old amp to a top of the line 2018 Marantz AVR. My old denon POA came from that time and I'd bet good money this AVR will destroy it. My needs/space really require a AVR and I'm willing to pay 3K for it. I don't need/care to move air to the point where I need to anchor the polks to the wall :smiley:
  • GardenstaterGardenstater Posts: 1,473
    It's all about reserve current capacity and people here are telling you they don't think it has enough for those speakers.
    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, most mods comp. (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
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  • nooshinjohnnooshinjohn Posts: 22,971
    audioluvr wrote: »
    HiDesertNM wrote: »
    v9u918ndptuo.jpg

    Looks purdy! One thing I don't see is power caps. Lots of big power caps. That's where you get your reserve capacity for most amps. Watts isn't everything.

    The answer has been given ad-nauseum at this point, If the OP wants to follow his failed logic that imploded his last setup rather than listen to the good advice he has been given, then he is on his own. I'm out...
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, TriangleArt Reference SE with Pass Labs Xono Phono Preamp, Walker Precision Motor Drive, ClearAudio Goldfinger Diamond v2 cartridge and Origin Conquerer Mk3c tonearm, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Pass Labs X0.2 three chassis preamp, PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MkII, Krell Evolution 505 SACD Player, Pioneer Elite SC-LX701, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds.

    I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.” .

    “If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
  • HiDesertNMHiDesertNM Posts: 39
    audioluvr wrote: »
    HiDesertNM wrote: »
    v9u918ndptuo.jpg

    Looks purdy! One thing I don't see is power caps. Lots of big power caps. That's where you get your reserve capacity for most amps. Watts isn't everything.

    The answer has been given ad-nauseum at this point, If the OP wants to follow his failed logic that imploded his last setup rather than listen to the good advice he has been given, then he is on his own. I'm out...


    Well, as for my last setup its impossible to compare that cheap Chinese Sony crap to this high end Japanese made Marantz. I mean it was only rated at about 90 watts. Weighed under 19 lbs. Paid less then 400 dollars. In comparison, the Marantz weighs over twice. Transformer and current are much stronger. This is more then two of those Sony's. Although it was not bad to listen to. Definitely not up for the job. I've been told the higher end AVR's can run allot of 4 ohm speakers. Audioholics benchmarked this AVR and gave it 4 out of 5 for 4 ohm load. Although I must confess it appears Marantz overstated the power of this thing. Looks to be 140 watts. I know everyone here swears this think will pop. But has anyone actually used a modern AVR at this caliber?

    https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/marantz-sr8012-receiver/marantz-sr8012-bench-tests

  • invalidinvalid Posts: 354
    The power supply transformer in that picture weighs over twice as much as that whole receiver
  • HiDesertNMHiDesertNM Posts: 39
    That's impressive. Over 80lbs just for that. I take it this is a Krell?
  • invalidinvalid Posts: 354
    Yes, it's a krell only rated at 300 watts into 8ohms.
  • EmlynEmlyn Posts: 2,761
    While it is a nice receiver, the Marantz SR8012 and Denon 6500H have similar amplifier performance. The Marantz has better physical build quality, and most likely sounds a bit better in two channel because of its proprietary analog parts, but I would not expect much performance difference between the two in terms of pushing big speakers.
    1. Polk LSiM707, 704C, 703; Dual SVS SB2000 subwoofers; Marantz SR7011 receiver; Parasound A31 and A23 amps; Oppo 205; Sony 65" 4K TV; FIOS; PS Audio Power Plant Premier; MIT S2 cables
    2. JM Labs Electra 920.1; Parasound JC2 and JC5; Sony HAP-Z1ES; Marantz SA8004 SACD; Music Hall MMF7 and Acoustech phono pre; PS Audio P1000; MIT S1 Cables
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  • HiDesertNMHiDesertNM Posts: 39
    edited August 13
    Emlyn wrote: »
    While it is a nice receiver, the Marantz SR8012 and Denon 6500H have similar amplifier performance. The Marantz has better physical build quality, and most likely sounds a bit better in two channel because of its proprietary analog parts, but I would not expect much performance difference between the two in terms of pushing big speakers.

    Did you look at audioholics link to benchmarks? On 4 ohm loads it shows from 215 watts/ 224 and short bursts up to 336 watts. Not sure what all that means actually. But his overall rating for 4 ohms was 4 stars or very good. I understand the SDA's are in the high end of all that. Also the toroidal transformer is beefier on the Marantz compared to the Denon. The chassis is much beefier. It weighs about 10 lbs more. I know allot will say its just allot of watts. But that Toroidal transformer is pumping out some decent current as well. Also has the preouts so theres that for plan B down the road.

    https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/marantz-sr8012-receiver/marantz-sr8012-bench-tests
    Post edited by HiDesertNM on
  • BlueBirdMusicBlueBirdMusic Registered User Posts: 1,311
    edited August 14
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  • invalidinvalid Posts: 354
    HiDesertNM wrote: »
    Emlyn wrote: »
    While it is a nice receiver, the Marantz SR8012 and Denon 6500H have similar amplifier performance. The Marantz has better physical build quality, and most likely sounds a bit better in two channel because of its proprietary analog parts, but I would not expect much performance difference between the two in terms of pushing big speakers.

    Did you look at audioholics link to benchmarks? On 4 ohm loads it shows from 215 watts/ 224 and short bursts up to 336 watts. Not sure what all that means actually. But his overall rating for 4 ohms was 4 stars or very good. I understand the SDA's are in the high end of all that. Also the toroidal transformer is beefier on the Marantz compared to the Denon. The chassis is much beefier. It weighs about 10 lbs more. I know allot will say its just allot of watts. But that Toroidal transformer is pumping out some decent current as well. Also has the preouts so theres that for plan B down the road.

    https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/marantz-sr8012-receiver/marantz-sr8012-bench-tests
    [/quot

    Most receivers if not all have one transformer for all the circuits, which still takes some power away from the amplifier section. Most manufacturers don't measure the power output with all channels driven, you get less power per channel with all channels driven. I don't know how somebody came up with 400 watts when in quasi bi-amped.
  • machonemachone Posts: 1,279
    Why don't you tell is how you really feel? 😈
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  • invalidinvalid Posts: 354
    Schurkey wrote: »
    That Marantz SR8012 is typical mass-market import junk. Lacking FTC-rated 4-ohm capacity. Don't get me started on Audioholics, it's a long story, and it involves me taking-on the Head Dude for abandoning his stated, written principles so he could shill for Yamaha, doing the same unethical crap he's done for Marantz in this instance--claiming 4-ohm capability for junk that's NOT RATED FOR 4-OHM USE BY THE MANUFACTURER because the product has been poorly engineered for "high"-current applications.

    40 pounds for 11 X 205 watts is laughable. My JVC JR-S501 receiver from 1978 weighs more than that for two channels x 120 watts.

    How do you get 11 channels at 205 watts powered from a 15-amp household outlet? Well, first you lie about the output power. The Marantz is a 140-watt/channel receiver, not 205. Second, you make sure it's got no 4-ohm rating; and even the 6-ohm rating sucks as it's only tested at 1kHz (no current-hungry bass) and it has fourteen times the 8-ohm THD. Probably due to lack of power supply, lack of output devices, and/or lack of heat sink; any of which bring down the cost to manufacture and ship the product.

    Third, you omit the words "All Channels Driven" from the spec sheet. So, sure, two channels at a time can output lots of voltage, not much current, into an 8-ohm load. All eleven channels, at the same time, overstress the marginal power supply, marginal output devices, and/or marginal heat sinking.

    As a 2-channel receiver, it's probably very adequate at 140 watts/8 ohms. Drop the impedance of the load, and it's already in trouble at 6-ohms. The manufacturer won't even discuss 4-ohm load performance. This is the OPPOSITE of a quality "high current" amplifier.

    What good are eleven channels if none of them are worth a craap with lower-impedance loads? Even 8-ohm nominal speakers are going to drop into this amp's trouble zone at some frequencies. Using this receiver with speakers known to be 4-ohm nominal, dropping lower at some frequencies is going to be torture for both the receiver AND your ears.


    http://manuals.marantz.com/SR8012/NA/EN/GFNFSYbsjxinov.php

    I have a marantz avr rated down to 6ohms and I run it on my Polk sda2A's with low dcr inductors and it does trip the protection circuit, but look what I'm asking it to do, drive a speaker that is under 4ohms. It only trips the protection at high volume, but I think the marantz rated for 4ohm will drive a 4ohm speaker without tripping the protection, but it definitely doesn't have the authority to make them sound good like a dedicated high current amp would
  • SchurkeySchurkey Posts: 1,961
    edited August 29
    machone wrote: »
    Why don't you tell is how you really feel? 😈
    Point out the part(s) in my previous post where I made a mistake.

    I feel that the FTC should be biitch-slapped for allowing manufacturers to mislead the public. I really hate that "Watchdog" Federal agencies have become the "Lapdogs" of industry.

    There was a time that Marantz made decent equipment. I have a Marantz DVD player that does a fine job. But their AVRs are garbage, at least if this "top-of-the-line" unit is any indication. What good is a flash of copper-plating on the chassis when you don't put in nearly enough power supply?

    And what good are professional reviewers if they're going to "forget" to tell their readers about the major product deficiencies engineered-into the product? Audioholics "lies" to the public by omission--using short-term or "burst" testing to imply that this AVR can appropriately drive a 4-ohm load; without mentioning the distortion or overheating that could occur.

    FOURTEEN TIMES the distortion by dropping the impedance to 6 ohms from 8 ohms? In an era when there's never been so many 4-ohm speakers for sale?

    Criminals.
    invalid wrote: »
    I have a marantz avr rated down to 6ohms and I run it on my Polk sda2A's with low dcr inductors and it does trip the protection circuit, but look what I'm asking it to do, drive a speaker that is under 4ohms. It only trips the protection at high volume, but I think the marantz rated for 4ohm will drive a 4ohm speaker without tripping the protection, but it definitely doesn't have the authority to make them sound good like a dedicated high current amp would
    1. What is the distortion BEFORE it trips the protection circuits? Just because it hasn't shut down, doesn't mean it's operating with any kind of finesse. Is your AVR rated for 6-ohm loads from 20 Hz to 20kHz, or is it frequency-limited in the specs to 1kHz so it doesn't have to deal with bass, like the SR8012?

    2. The AVR in question (SR8012) isn't rated for 4 ohm operation, either. Does Marantz even make an AVR that's rated for 4-ohm loads?


  • invalidinvalid Posts: 354
    Schurkey wrote: »
    machone wrote: »
    Why don't you tell is how you really feel? 😈
    Point out the part(s) in my previous post where I made a mistake.

    I feel that the FTC should be biitch-slapped for allowing manufacturers to mislead the public. I really hate that "Watchdog" Federal agencies have become the "Lapdogs" of industry.

    There was a time that Marantz made decent equipment. I have a Marantz DVD player that does a fine job. But their AVRs are garbage, at least if this "top-of-the-line" unit is any indication. What good is a flash of copper-plating on the chassis when you don't put in nearly enough power supply?

    And what good are professional reviewers if they're going to "forget" to tell their readers about the major product deficiencies engineered-into the product? Audioholics "lies" to the public by omission--using short-term or "burst" testing to imply that this AVR can appropriately drive a 4-ohm load; without mentioning the distortion or overheating that could occur.

    FOURTEEN TIMES the distortion by dropping the impedance to 6 ohms from 8 ohms? In an era when there's never been so many 4-ohm speakers for sale?

    Criminals.
    invalid wrote: »
    I have a marantz avr rated down to 6ohms and I run it on my Polk sda2A's with low dcr inductors and it does trip the protection circuit, but look what I'm asking it to do, drive a speaker that is under 4ohms. It only trips the protection at high volume, but I think the marantz rated for 4ohm will drive a 4ohm speaker without tripping the protection, but it definitely doesn't have the authority to make them sound good like a dedicated high current amp would
    1. What is the distortion BEFORE it trips the protection circuits? Just because it hasn't shut down, doesn't mean it's operating with any kind of finesse. Is your AVR rated for 6-ohm loads from 20 Hz to 20kHz, or is it frequency-limited in the specs to 1kHz so it doesn't have to deal with bass, like the SR8012?

    2. The AVR in question (SR8012) isn't rated for 4 ohm operation, either. Does Marantz even make an AVR that's rated for 4-ohm loads?

    I have a krell amp with a 5kva transformer and krell lies also when they say it can double power when impedance is halved, no amp can technically do that, the 8ohm rating is underrated to make it look like it can so what are you going to do, they all lie.
  • SchurkeySchurkey Posts: 1,961
    edited August 29
    invalid wrote: »
    I have a krell amp with a 5kva transformer and krell lies also when they say it can double power when impedance is halved, no amp can technically do that, the 8ohm rating is underrated to make it look like it can so what are you going to do, they all lie.
    Big difference between Krell "lying" by UNDER-STATING the capabilities of their amp, vs. the mass-market junk manufacturers lying by OVER-STATING the capabilities of their product.

    Someone buys a "140 watt/channel" amplifier, and they find out later that it'll actually push 200-watt/channel while meeting all the advertised distortion specs, and not shut down due to overheating--are they going to biitch? No. They got a "bonus".

    Someone buys a "140 watt/channel" amplifier, and they find out later that it'll actually throw only about 50 watts into all eleven channels at the same time, or it overheats or it can't meet distortion specs, they've got grounds for grief.

    The FTC needs to bring back the "all channels driven" and some variation of the old "1/3-power pre-conditioning" requirements for multi-channel amps. The preconditioning should be appropriate for the design of the amp being tested--they chose 1/3 power because it was the greatest thermal stress for a Class A/B (or was is just class "B"?) amp, most common at the time. I don't know what stresses Class A, C, D, H, T, or whatever the alphabet-soup of amplifier designs has grown to include--but whatever produces the highest stress should be what they use for the one-hour preconditioning. THEN we'll find out who has a power supply and heat sinks, and who's just pretending and assuming the public is too stupid to figure it out for themselves.
    Post edited by Schurkey on


  • invalidinvalid Posts: 354
    Schurkey wrote: »
    invalid wrote: »
    I have a krell amp with a 5kva transformer and krell lies also when they say it can double power when impedance is halved, no amp can technically do that, the 8ohm rating is underrated to make it look like it can so what are you going to do, they all lie.
    Big difference between Krell "lying" by UNDER-STATING the capabilities of their amp, vs. the mass-market junk manufacturers lying by OVER-STATING the capabilities of their product.

    Someone buys a "140 watt/channel" amplifier, and they find out later that it'll actually push 200-watt/channel while meeting all the distortion specs, and not shut down due to overheating--are they going to biitch? No. They got a "bonus".

    Someone buys a "140 watt/channel" amplifier, and they find out later that it'll actually throw only about 50 watts into all eleven channels at the same time, or it overheats or it can't meet distortion specs, they've got grounds for grief.

    The FTC needs to bring back the "all channels driven" and some variation of the old "1/3-power pre-conditioning" requirements for multi-channel amps. The preconditioning should be appropriate for the design of the amp being tested--they chose 1/3 power because it was the greatest thermal stress for a Class A/B amp, most common at the time. I don't know what stresses Class A, C, D, H, T, or whatever the alphabet-soup of amplifier designs has grown to include--but whatever produces the highest stress should be what they use for the one-hour preconditioning. THEN we'll find out who has a power supply and heat sinks, and who's just pretending and assuming the public is too stupid to figure it out for themselves.

    That not the point I was trying to make, I was saying they don't double power when impedance is halved, that's why they understate the 8ohm rating.
  • audioluvraudioluvr Posts: 2,826
    That's why I tell women I only have 2". (wide)
    Cambridge Audio 851N Streamer/DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
  • HiDesertNMHiDesertNM Posts: 39
    edited November 10
    invalid wrote: »
    HiDesertNM wrote: »
    Looking like I may go with this. A very powerful AVR. "symmetrical, monolithic amplifier design gives it 11 identical amplifier channels, each delivering 205W per channel. A installer says that will give me 400 watts when bi wired or bi amped.. not going to argue that point anymore. But this should do it. He is talking to some enginneers at Polk to see if this will do the trick.

    https://www.us.marantz.com/en-US/shop/avreceivers/sr8012_m

    It will make decent sound at low to moderate volume, but it still won't do the srs's justice. I had an adcom gfa555 paired with my Polk sda2A's and that was okay, but when I got a more powerful vintage krell amp it was a whole different speaker. I don't know why you just don't take the advice of the people on this forum and get a decent amp not an avr. You need an amp with a robust power supply to accually hear what they are capable of.

    Thanks for this comment as it was the most helpful for my usage needs. As I'm sure all will disagree with how this ended I got a great buy on a X6500H for 1499 USD. I wanted to wait a few months of daily usage to update on how that match is working out. So far, perfectly. Definitely the best sounding these speakers have been since I acquired them over 20 years back. For allot of that time I used a 200 watt class A denon POA 2400 Amp which I bought new and the matching pre amp. As far as i'm concerned, the 6500 destroys that setup. I only drive it up to about 70 on the volume at most and it sounds amazing to me. It can go allot louder but I will probably suffer hearing loss if I do. At louder levels I'm sure it won't sound as good as allot of separates and even at lower levels. But I'm not complaining. Mostly I needed something that has an optical input for my TV and the heos app to stream Tidal which works perfectly. Just using it as a 2 channel amp so I do benefit of getting the max stated power of the AVR. Also like the ability to play hi Resolution SACD/Flac files via USB. I've started a trial with Amazon HD and the heos app can natively support ultra HD and those files are amazing as well. For an AVR the built in DAC sounds really good to my ears. I'm also pretty much done with fiddling with tons of cabling for a traditional setup with separates. Its compromised I'm sure for the potential for these speakers but it still sounds amazing and its a very clean setup. Basically just speaker wire and a single 3 foot optical cable from TV. I have no desire (zero) to fiddle around with optical discs and run DVD's and CD's. I'll just convert them to Flac but even that is not needed with the streaming options that are available today.

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