COVID-19

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  • shawn474shawn474 Posts: 3,134
    edited April 10
    daddyjt wrote: »
    shawn474 wrote: »
    daddyjt wrote: »
    kevhed72 wrote: »
    daddyjt wrote: »
    kevhed72 wrote: »
    tonyb wrote: »
    kevhed72 wrote: »
    What was your question sir?

    What number of deaths, round about, would be ok for you to return to a normal daily life ?

    Thats a tough question. Probably zero from the perspective from those dying or their loved ones.

    Talk about classic gaslighting... “If we can save just one life, right?

    Tell me this, and be honest - if we could save just one life by eliminating 10 million jobs and throwing 5 million families into homelessness and poverty, do you think it’s worth it?
    I dunno man....how many people do you think is acceptable to have die to 'save the economy'. The ratio you quoted is a very extreme. Unfortunately a high percentage of people losing their jobs are considered working class or even middle class. They will have the toughest time recovering. People at the upper end of the spectrum may be losing money but will fair much better than those on the lower end(s) of the spectrum. The real danger is we rush back to normal life, fail to wipe out the virus completely, and have a resurgence in the fall. People and our economy are resilient. While this is all very unfortunate, we need to look at the long term. These points, of course, are my opinion.

    You’re not going to like the answer, but I will tell you that it’s more than this virus will kill. Period.

    First of all, it’s not just “the economy” - it’s people’s life savings, retirement accounts, homes, cars, businesses, kids college funds, and yes, their audio gear. The ratio I quoted was to see if you are really serious and honest about saving “just one life”. If you admit that it is in fact worth “one life” to save any number of jobs and livelihoods, then we can actually have a conversation - but you decided to dodge...

    Second, I am far more concerned about the “average Joe” than I am the “upper class”. And to be clear, it’s not the rich that are suffering right now - it’s the “average Joe” wondering how he’s going to make his next house payment, or pay his electric bill, because government shut down his place of employment.

    Third, if you really think we have any chance to “wipe out the virus completely”, you need to learn more about virology. Everyone in this country will eventually be exposed to this virus - there is nowhere to hide - long term anyway.


    So are you suggesting that we expose everyone and just see how it goes? What’s the alternative without completely overrunning the healthcare system and causing a much more catastrophic blow to the economy? You keep telling people they’re dodging the question but I haven’t heard a viable alternative yet. Do you actually have one?

    Why does it have to be an “all or none”? How about we start with protecting the elderly and those with underlying health issues - shelter them in place. Then, let’s not shut down business and economic activity, but rather take an intelligent approach. For example, maybe restaurants cut their amount of available tables by half, creating distance between patrons. Maybe theaters do the same, selling every 3rd seat? Or 5th? Why are golf courses closed? Talk about distancing... malls? Same thing - plenty of room for people to distance. What about weddings and funerals? I’m pretty sure a group of 50 people can assemble responsibility, without the nanny state arresting people for being in a park with their kids.

    And that’s just for starters.

    What are your ideas?

    I certainly don’t have any objection to what you’re proposing IF society showed an ability to listen. The facts are that this is only effective to the lowest common denominator - if you still have even a minority of people who are not willing to listen to social distancing guidelines and taking precautions to prevent the spread then you are not going to be effective in containing it. You’d still have kids throwing parties and infecting each other and the public, you’d still have people taking vacations and being reckless, you’d have restaurants that don’t abide by a maximum occupancy recommendation, bars opened, and a host of other situations.....you can’t do that AND contain the virus. And it doesn’t take many to undermine the whole process.

    We can debate, and again I don’t NECESSARILY disagree......in my field, we talk a lot about “taking our medicine” early on in the process to minimize the potential for things to linger and reduce effectiveness or performance long term. The unemployed, the people with lost incomes, the people with diminished retirements may be able recover from this with the bailout package, short term unemployment and hopefully the people who will rehire them when this is all over. I WILL NOT EVER DIMINISH their struggles or the situations that they are in - I can’t begin to understand their plight right now. I could become a casualty of this in the next month or so as similar jobs are being cut at competitors. But, if this extends another 6 months or a year because people didn’t listen and are too selfish to have a bigger picture in mind and respect for the issues at hand (And let’s be honest - there are PLENTY of this happening even as we speak), then our economy, those jobs, retirement packages are potentially lost for good.

    It doesn’t take much for many to become complacent - especially when they’re not symptomatic and may not ever know they have it. IF everyone could operate with that in mind, and exist in a manner where they assume they are positive or in close proximity to someone who could be positive, then maybe that could work.....but I don’t ever see that happening.
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  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 45,206
    Oh brother.... 1y1pfvf7pn2s.png
    Political Correctness'.........defined

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  • vmaxervmaxer Posts: 4,816
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  • shawn474shawn474 Posts: 3,134
    vmaxer wrote: »

    Yes, but the conspiracy theorists will tell you that we can’t trust anything coming out of South Korea though.....it doesn’t fit their narrative to say that this virus is not going away anytime soon and that there is much more to understand before we start opening everything back up.
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  • GardenstaterGardenstater Posts: 1,473
    vmaxer wrote: »

    This clears it up:

    “There are different interpretations and many variables,” said Jung Ki-suck, professor of pulmonary medicine at Hallym University Sacred Heart Hospital.

    “The government needs to come up with responses for each of these variables”.

    Sorry. It's late.
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  • tonybtonyb Posts: 32,504
    edited April 10
    Anyone that thinks 360 million people are going to be obedient for x amount of time is kidding themselves. We always have to weigh the losses against the gains when making big decisions. Since deaths now have been downgraded and predicted to be in the 60k area, would you be just happy to go back out and live normally if we stayed under 60k deaths ?

    If No, why not ? You were just fine living a normal life when 60k of us died from the flu a few years ago. Nobody shut stuff down to prevent the flu from transmitting between humans and saving lives.Frankly, nobody cared enough to call out the death totals every day. Nobody cared enough to do stories about loved ones and loss. Everything just trickled on as normal.

    Same thing is going to happen with Coronavirus once we get a vaccine. We lose 40k next year, another 40k year after that, maybe only 20k in the next year, everyone will forget about it. The stockpiles will be replenished, supply chain strengthened, and tens of thousands will still die year after year after year. Nobody will bat an eye at it.

    We'll still be drowning in debt, some businesses may not recover, bankruptcies will rise but hey, we can live with losing 40k a year, I mean we have a vaccine and all what else can we do right.

    Right, not much else we can do, which is why we are so accustomed to losing that many with the flu. Then when another virus may hit and we start this process all over again.

    Maybe, just maybe, we should start looking at where these viruses keep originating from and put efforts into stopping them before they are even created or mutated further. In my mind, we have no choice given how just one virus getting out of the genie bottle can destroy the economy of the whole planet. I'm thinking Africa and China as the 2 spots where most viruses originate. I could be wrong, but both places for different reasons.

    China is going to be hard to deal with, they have the U.N. in their back pockets and don't like others telling them what they must do. Getting them to change is an uphill battle to say the least.

    Africa is the age old battle of providing clean water and sanitary conditions, good healthcare and jobs for the people. That's doable....if we can get these little dictators out of the way who siphon all the money for themselves. At some point, those lands will have to be annexed by other countries in order to accomplish that otherwise nothing changes. We just sit here and wait for the next, more deadly virus, and roll the dice.

    Then we have the wild cards, smaller countries who fly under the radar who may make viruses to sell to others as a biological weapon. Accidents happen and bam, we have another world crisis. Punishments have to be hard and swift and a very tight rope around the labs that do research also.....very tight.

    Some believe that in order to restructure the power players on the planet, one must first destroy everything and start from scratch. We just witnessed how easy it is for one virus to destroy the economy of just about everyone. If the death tolls were in the millions, poverty prevalent, food scarce.....civilization as we know it would cease to exist. Some rejoice at this idea, many even embrace it to hurry up and arrive. A virus is a good way to accomplish this feat without a war, without destroying the infrastructures and most importantly, without blame. Did we just witness a trial run, or was this truly an accident....who knows, but I bet some people where paying very close attention at just how easy it was. this time around. Everything that is happening right now, up until now, has been just theory. Who would have thought we could scare the whole planet into a police state so easily. In my mind, we simply can't adjust for every evil mankind comes up with. Every so often, hundreds of thousands of us, maybe even millions, will die from nefarious reasons, accidental release of infectious viruses/diseases, war, or some other mad scientist ideas evil people think of to mass murder. Even from natural disasters. We won't be able to stop everything, not quick enough anyway, and we can't keep throwing the planet into shutdown mode without dire consequences too.
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  • shawn474shawn474 Posts: 3,134
    @tonyb, are you suggesting that covid19 was man made?
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  • BlueFoxBlueFox Posts: 13,939
    tonyb wrote: »
    Anyone that thinks 360 million people are going to be obedient for x amount of time is kidding themselves. We always have to weigh the losses against the gains when making big decisions. Since deaths now have been downgraded and predicted to be in the 60k area, would you be just happy to go back out and live normally if we stayed under 60k deaths ?

    The death rate of 60k is based on social isolation. It would be much higher if we acted as business as usual.
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  • vmaxervmaxer Posts: 4,816
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  • treitz3treitz3 Posts: 14,617
    tonyb wrote: »
    Maybe, just maybe, we should start looking at where these viruses keep originating from and put efforts into stopping them before they are even created or mutated further.
    Amen.

    Tom

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  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 45,206
    shawn474 wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    Oh brother.... 1y1pfvf7pn2s.png

    Jesse, your passive aggressiveness throughout this thread is palpable....if you have something to say, please say it. Instead of responding with this type of childishness, have an original thought and put it into words instead of trying to incite people into a back and forth with you so you can play the victim El Presidente’. You rail against the trolls yet participate in that behavior better than them all......

    Nothing passive aggressive or trolling about it. Simply an appropriate response to your trying to make others see things the way you do. News flash, it isn't working.

    Are you attacking me? Should I feel like a victim because I never do.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

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  • verbverb Posts: 10,313
    vmaxer wrote: »

    Yeah! Woody Harrelson (expert) is touting this theory! :smile:
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  • anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 2,683
    edited April 10
    BlueFox wrote: »
    The death rate of 60k is based on social isolation. It would be much higher if we acted as business as usual.

    I agree with you. This is what many seem to be missing. If we did not lock down, the math tells us we would have a death toll in the millions. The social distancing is doing what it is supposed to be doing - lowering R0

    Now, I agree with Tony that " I bet some people where paying very close attention at just how easy it was. this time around." There will be bad actors that will look to exploit this.

    The same is also true of any social trend. You can see it in copycat leaders around the world who are playing to our leaders playbook with much success. We've all gone back to our caveman roots, retreated into our caves with spears pointed at the door. Gonna be hard to battle global pandemics with this trend. Viruses do not respect borders, with or without walls.
  • vmaxervmaxer Posts: 4,816
    anonymouse wrote: »
    vmaxer wrote: »
    The death rate of 60k is based on social isolation. It would be much higher if we acted as business as usual.

    I agree with you. This is what many seem to be missing. If we did not lock down, the math tells us we would have a death toll in the millions. The social distancing is doing what it is supposed to be doing - lowering R0

    Now, I agree with Tony that " I bet some people where paying very close attention at just how easy it was. this time around." There will be bad actors that will look to exploit this.

    The same is also true of any social trend. You can see it in copycat leaders around the world who are playing to our leaders playbook with much success. We've all gone back to our caveman roots, retreated into our caves with spears pointed at the door. Gonna be hard to battle global pandemics with this trend. Viruses do not respect borders, with or without walls.

    Not sure how this happened, but I didn’t post that?

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  • vmaxervmaxer Posts: 4,816
    BlueFox wrote: »
    tonyb wrote: »
    Anyone that thinks 360 million people are going to be obedient for x amount of time is kidding themselves. We always have to weigh the losses against the gains when making big decisions. Since deaths now have been downgraded and predicted to be in the 60k area, would you be just happy to go back out and live normally if we stayed under 60k deaths ?

    The death rate of 60k is based on social isolation. It would be much higher if we acted as business as usual.

    It was Bluefox
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  • shawn474shawn474 Posts: 3,134
    edited April 10
    F1nut wrote: »
    shawn474 wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    Oh brother.... 1y1pfvf7pn2s.png

    Jesse, your passive aggressiveness throughout this thread is palpable....if you have something to say, please say it. Instead of responding with this type of childishness, have an original thought and put it into words instead of trying to incite people into a back and forth with you so you can play the victim El Presidente’. You rail against the trolls yet participate in that behavior better than them all......

    Nothing passive aggressive or trolling about it. Simply an appropriate response to your trying to make others see things the way you do. News flash, it isn't working.

    Are you attacking me? Should I feel like a victim because I never do.

    This is called a discussion, is it not? How do you know how many agree or not. And why is that even an issue? There’s a difference in trying to introduce an alternate viewpoint for consideration (me) vs. pushing biased political agenda and belittling others (you). Trust me when I tell you that your opinion of me matters not one bit. I called you out for the childish trolling behavior that you’ve displayed all over this thread and you you double down with your juvenile response.

    You shouldn’t feel attacked at all - I engaged you in a discussion and you responded. Me with a statement pointing out the obvious and you with an inaccurate depiction of my intent to further your false narrative. My goal here isn’t to see how many people can agree with my point of view or corroborate my ideas - I will gladly leave that up to you. It is to participate in discussion, learn something and have a place to unwind. Your goal sadly seems to be an unending game of one upsmanship. You’ll prove it with your strategically placed LOL and insatiable need to get the last word. Open your mind man - life is too short to think you have nothing left to learn.

    Post edited by shawn474 on
    Shawn
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  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 45,206
    Again, an appropriate response, LOL

    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


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  • mrbigbluelightmrbigbluelight Posts: 8,151
    shawn474 wrote: »
    @tonyb, are you suggesting that covid19 was man made?

    If Tony isn't we should be.
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  • NotaSuvNotaSuv Posts: 2,913
    How many here have actually lost a good friend or loved one?? I have lost 3 so even 3 to me is too many...........................for those that feel this is man made maybe you need to gather in large groups outside and let Nature thin out that herd :) better yet go to a filled church and see how good the Lord protects your ****................
  • NotaSuvNotaSuv Posts: 2,913
    'You can't fix stupid" as evident by the posts here ;)
  • mrbigbluelightmrbigbluelight Posts: 8,151
    So I take it notasuv that you are of the opinion that the virus originated from a bat from the Chinese jungle meat markets ?
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  • muncybobmuncybob Posts: 2,414
    Was it man made? Maybe....if you take into consideration the quality control in China being what it is....and if that same QC is practiced at the lab in that area that has a reported 1500 viruses growing there....then maybe?
    Yep, my name really is Bob.
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  • mrbigbluelightmrbigbluelight Posts: 8,151
    And I'm not entirely clear how KNOWING that Covid-19 is man made would necessitate the gathering in large groups outside merely to,as you suggested, "thin out the herd".

    I certainly hope that wasn't the advice you gave to the 3 acquaintences that you lost.
    In any event Godspeed to them and peace to their families
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  • BlueBirdMusicBlueBirdMusic Registered User Posts: 1,311
    The military readiness and the state of our borders are certainly a concern. The border has been a problem for years and contributes to why the coronavirus has marched in. I consider the coronavirus to be much worse than the flu and just comparing the number of deaths as a barometer detracts from the potential "power" of the coronavirus to disrupt things across society and our military.

    We have to be concerned with what is happening to the Naval ships. Look at what has happened to the USS Teddy Roosevelt - 400+ cases and most of the crew has been removed from the ship.

    I searched for the situation on other ships and found this.

    With Warship Coronavirus Cases Rising, Concerns Over Military Readiness
    nma7a6hxab95.png

    https://www.npr.org/2020/04/09/831266852/with-warship-coronavirus-cases-rising-concerns-over-military-readiness

    With 11 aircraft carriers in the U.S. Navy's fleet, the Roosevelt is one of three with crew members reported to have been infected with the coronavirus. The only other American aircraft carrier currently in the western Pacific — where the U.S. uses such vessels to project military might and counter potential hostilities from China or North Korea — is the USS Ronald Reagan, docked in Yokosuka, Japan.

    Although the Pentagon late last month stopped identifying the locations of active duty service members infected with the coronavirus, crew members are reported to have tested positive for COVID-19 on the Ronald Reagan as well as on the USS Nimitz. That aircraft carrier — the oldest of the fleet — is currently docked in Bremerton, Wash., and has had its deployment to the Pacific delayed by a two-week quarantine of its crew.


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  • BlueFoxBlueFox Posts: 13,939
    The border has been a problem for years and contributes to why the coronavirus has marched in.

    Not to sidetrack the thread, but what did border enforcement have to do with the COVID virus outbreak in this country?
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