MM vs High Output MC regarding Amp power

coolsax · January 2020

As my Vinyl Collection has grown, I've decided I want to upgrade my current turntable.. probably looking at spending between 1K to 1500. My current amp has a built in MM pre amp, so that is mostly what I'm looking for b/c I don't really want to add an additional MC/MM preamp.

I've been reading that High Output MC cartridges can be used with MM connections as well, though you do need to turn up the volume further than you do with MM. so my question is ( and it may be dumb, but I don't always think about the science of it) does it take more wattage to get the volume to the same decibel level? I think I understand that the regular MM would have more gain than the High output MC on an MM preamp thus the mm would be louder at the same volume meter level, but does that also mean it takes more power to get the high output MC to that same level. I just want to make sure I don't hurt my speakers by turning up the volume meter too high.

mhardy6647 · January 2020

No, it doesn't take more watts; the requirement is more gain to get to a given output level. If one cartridge has less output than another, more gain in the preamp stages (and/or less attenuation of the preamp's output, which equates to turning up the volume control up further) is required to get to the same end result.

xsmi · January 2020

Coolsax, it's easier to see on a separate pre/power amp. The volume(gain) happens BEFORE the power amp (watts). So as hardy said, it's a question of gain, not power.

coolsax · January 2020

Ok that makes sense thanks for the explanation both of you!

jdjohn · January 2020

That's a nice budget. I'm not sure what tt's with built-in amps are in that price range. What are you finding so far?

mhardy6647 · January 2020

jdjohn wrote: »

That's a nice budget. I'm not sure what tt's with built-in amps are in that price range. What are you finding so far?

https://www.andoveraudio.com/products/model-one-record-player

jdjohn · January 2020

Interesting, but $1,000 or so above his budget

Maybe they have a scaled-down version.

hochpt21 · January 2020

@coolsax do you have some ideas on what TT you might want? If not, you should start a TT thread...lots of us here to help guide you (aka spend your cash

)

mhardy6647 · January 2020

jdjohn wrote: »

That's a nice budget. I'm not sure what tt's with built-in amps are in that price range. What are you finding so far?

jdjohn wrote: »

Interesting, but $1,000 or so above his budget Maybe they have a scaled-down version.

I guess I misinterpreted your comment -- I thought your earlier post meant that there weren't many (or any?) that were that expensive.

I hear good things about that particular gizmo -- but, then again, one of the local hifi gurus designed the amps and processing for it, so he, and by extension, I, am a little biased.

Come to think of it -- @coolsax where (ish) are you (regionally)? I am not up to shipping a tt (it's... tedious... to pack 'em to survive 21st Century shipping tactics) but if you're in the neighborhood, I might be able to help out

There's also a pretty cool Karma goin' at the moment, tt-wise -- come to think of it.

displayname · January 2020

coolsax wrote: »

I don't really want to add an additional MC/MM preamp.

Could you elaborate on this statement? I think you might be over looking the significant benefits a good phonopreamp can provide. In addition to greater flexibility with various cartridges, it can also massively improve your sound. I personally find that most people tend to under estimate the value of a good phono.

You will probably still want to upgrade the TT first, but I think you might want to consider upgrading your phono before driving into a MC cart, even if it is a high output cart.

coolsax · January 2020

I understand a good phono can definitely upgrade the sound, was more for simplicity sake as I don’t have a lot of room on my rack currently to add an external phono and my nova 150 has an mm amp. Was looking at the Project classic sb. Seems like a really good option at its current price on music direct.

jdjohn · January 2020

mhardy6647 wrote: »

jdjohn wrote: »

That's a nice budget. I'm not sure what tt's with built-in amps are in that price range. What are you finding so far?

jdjohn wrote: »

Interesting, but $1,000 or so above his budget Maybe they have a scaled-down version.

I guess I misinterpreted your comment -- I thought your earlier post meant that there weren't many (or any?) that were that expensive.

I hear good things about that particular gizmo -- but, then again, one of the local hifi gurus designed the amps and processing for it, so he, and by extension, I, am a little biased.

Maybe you did, maybe you didn't

I am familiar with the cheaper models from the likes of AT, et al. But, I truly was curious as to what other options are out there. Klipsch has a combo deal of sorts, but I think the phono preamp is built into the active/powered speakers in their case. All the hipsters are using it...yikes.

mhardy6647 wrote:

Come to think of it -- @coolsax where (ish) are you (regionally)? I am not up to shipping a tt (it's... tedious... to pack 'em to survive 21st Century shipping tactics) but if you're in the neighborhood, I might be able to help out

There's also a pretty cool Karma goin' at the moment, tt-wise -- come to think of it.

Amen to shipping a tt. Luckily, that particular Karma is a compact linear with tonearm incorporated into the cover, so MUCH more manageable

But, local/regional karma is even better!

For the record, 'displayname' raises very salient points.

mhardy6647 · January 2020

jdjohn wrote: »

mhardy6647 wrote: »

jdjohn wrote: »

That's a nice budget. I'm not sure what tt's with built-in amps are in that price range. What are you finding so far?

jdjohn wrote: »

Interesting, but $1,000 or so above his budget Maybe they have a scaled-down version.

I guess I misinterpreted your comment -- I thought your earlier post meant that there weren't many (or any?) that were that expensive.

I hear good things about that particular gizmo -- but, then again, one of the local hifi gurus designed the amps and processing for it, so he, and by extension, I, am a little biased.

Maybe you did, maybe you didn't I am familiar with the cheaper models from the likes of AT, et al. But, I truly was curious as to what other options are out there. Klipsch has a combo deal of sorts, but I think the phono preamp is built into the active/powered speakers in their case. All the hipsters are using it...yikes.

Oh, yes -- those are exactly the people I want to be!

Note that two of 'em are smart enough to stay off axis of those Klipsch tweeters

mhardy6647 wrote:

Come to think of it -- @coolsax where (ish) are you (regionally)? I am not up to shipping a tt (it's... tedious... to pack 'em to survive 21st Century shipping tactics) but if you're in the neighborhood, I might be able to help out

There's also a pretty cool Karma goin' at the moment, tt-wise -- come to think of it.

Amen to shipping a tt. Luckily, that particular Karma is a compact linear with tonearm incorporated into the cover, so MUCH more manageable But, local/regional karma is even better!

My thought exactly.

For the record, 'displayname' raises very salient points.

Well, yeah, indeed. There are so many good options in 2020 (amazing as it may seem) for good quality phono preamplifiers at all price points (from very affordable to very... umm... not affordable.).

F1nut · January 2020

Note that two of 'em are smart enough to stay off axis of those Klipsch tweeters

A strikingly similar thought crossed my mind.

mhardy6647 · January 2020

F1nut wrote: »

Note that two of 'em are smart enough to stay off axis of those Klipsch tweeters

A strikingly similar thought crossed my mind.

@F1nut and I may be twins separated at birth

jdjohn · January 2020

F1nut wrote: »

mhardy6647 wrote:

Note that two of 'em are smart enough to stay off axis of those Klipsch tweeters

A strikingly similar thought crossed my mind.

Or just dumb luck? Methinks you give them too much credit.

I dunno...the whole picture seems a bit staged to me. I mean, what self-respecting hipster would use gear made within the last 40 years? ...other than an iPhone.

displayname · January 2020

coolsax wrote: »

I understand a good phono can definitely upgrade the sound, was more for simplicity sake as I don’t have a lot of room on my rack currently to add an external phono and my nova 150 has an mm amp. Was looking at the Project classic sb. Seems like a really good option at its current price on music direct.

Got it. Given that, I assume you're trying to factor for the Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 cartridge correct? That cart has a 2.5mv output, which is kind of the very lower end of the MM category, but functional.

The main function of the phonostage is to bring the output of the cart up to a voltage that the amp can then amplify to the speakers... with as little distortion as possible in the process. Generally 350mv is a good final number.
Using a cartridge calculator, you can plug in any cart's output level, along with the your phonostage's gain to find your output signal.
https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_database_tools.php#VoltageGainCalculator
https://www.kabusa.com/pregain.htm

Is if you're coming from let's say the 2M series, the output is 5.5mv. A phono with 35db gain will bring the output to 309mv. A functional number. Most amps have a 1V input sensitivity if I recall correctly (someone can fact check me).

Now if you plug the Blue Point into that same system, you're looking at 104mv which is lower than you really want to go. You'll likely find yourself really pushing the amp to get it up to a comfortable volume.
But if your internal preamp has 40db of gain, that puts the Blue Point at 250mv, which is a more functional rating.

So the main thing you need to know is the actual gain on your internal phonostage.

jdjohn · January 2020

coolsax wrote: »

As my Vinyl Collection has grown, I've decided I want to upgrade my current turntable.. probably looking at spending between 1K to 1500. My current amp has a built in MM pre amp, so that is mostly what I'm looking for b/c I don't really want to add an additional MC/MM preamp.

Ok, my apologies. I could have sworn your original post said your current turntable has a built-in MM pre-amp. My bad

coolsax · January 2020

displayname wrote: »

coolsax wrote: »

I understand a good phono can definitely upgrade the sound, was more for simplicity sake as I don’t have a lot of room on my rack currently to add an external phono and my nova 150 has an mm amp. Was looking at the Project classic sb. Seems like a really good option at its current price on music direct.

Got it. Given that, I assume you're trying to factor for the Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 cartridge correct? That cart has a 2.5mv output, which is kind of the very lower end of the MM category, but functional.

The main function of the phonostage is to bring the output of the cart up to a voltage that the amp can then amplify to the speakers... with as little distortion as possible in the process. Generally 350mv is a good final number.
Using a cartridge calculator, you can plug in any cart's output level, along with the your phonostage's gain to find your output signal.
https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_database_tools.php#VoltageGainCalculator
https://www.kabusa.com/pregain.htm

Is if you're coming from let's say the 2M series, the output is 5.5mv. A phono with 35db gain will bring the output to 309mv. A functional number. Most amps have a 1V input sensitivity if I recall correctly (someone can fact check me).

Now if you plug the Blue Point into that same system, you're looking at 104mv which is lower than you really want to go. You'll likely find yourself really pushing the amp to get it up to a comfortable volume.
But if your internal preamp has 40db of gain, that puts the Blue Point at 250mv, which is a more functional rating.

So the main thing you need to know is the actual gain on your internal phonostage.

I emailed Peachtree last night to get the gain, b/c I did see a similar response on the Stevehoffman forums from a google search, but I'm not a member there.. Peachtree responded it was 40 db so workable based on your response, but definitely still way lower than the Red 2M I have on my current Turntable, so perhaps I may need to reconsider no external pre amp, I'll have to think about that a little more, or find an mm TT I'll be interested in.

displayname · January 2020

coolsax wrote: »

displayname wrote: »

coolsax wrote: »

I understand a good phono can definitely upgrade the sound, was more for simplicity sake as I don’t have a lot of room on my rack currently to add an external phono and my nova 150 has an mm amp. Was looking at the Project classic sb. Seems like a really good option at its current price on music direct.

Got it. Given that, I assume you're trying to factor for the Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 cartridge correct? That cart has a 2.5mv output, which is kind of the very lower end of the MM category, but functional.

The main function of the phonostage is to bring the output of the cart up to a voltage that the amp can then amplify to the speakers... with as little distortion as possible in the process. Generally 350mv is a good final number.
Using a cartridge calculator, you can plug in any cart's output level, along with the your phonostage's gain to find your output signal.
https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_database_tools.php#VoltageGainCalculator
https://www.kabusa.com/pregain.htm

Is if you're coming from let's say the 2M series, the output is 5.5mv. A phono with 35db gain will bring the output to 309mv. A functional number. Most amps have a 1V input sensitivity if I recall correctly (someone can fact check me).

Now if you plug the Blue Point into that same system, you're looking at 104mv which is lower than you really want to go. You'll likely find yourself really pushing the amp to get it up to a comfortable volume.
But if your internal preamp has 40db of gain, that puts the Blue Point at 250mv, which is a more functional rating.

So the main thing you need to know is the actual gain on your internal phonostage.

I emailed Peachtree last night to get the gain, b/c I did see a similar response on the Stevehoffman forums from a google search, but I'm not a member there.. Peachtree responded it was 40 db so workable based on your response, but definitely still way lower than the Red 2M I have on my current Turntable, so perhaps I may need to reconsider no external pre amp, I'll have to think about that a little more, or find an mm TT I'll be interested in.

Just remember you're at the low end of workable, so you'll likely need to turn it up a little vs other sources.

coolsax · January 2020

yeah that's what I figured since the Red does 550 while the sumiko is 250.. While, i may not fully understand the science, this helps me in regards to what to look for, thank you!

MM vs High Output MC regarding Amp power

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