Why are AV Preamps not cheaper than receivers?

Options
Now, the title is not referring to the uber high end equipment.
There will always be a place for that.

But does anybody know why none of the manufactures make a version of their receivers but without the power amp section?

It seems like you are paying extra for power circuits that you will not be using.
But even 'entry level' AV pre-amps are 600.00-800.00.

I would expect you should be able to but a good quality surround processor for 300.00 or so but there is nothing out there.

Or does somebody know of a product line I am missing?

Sorry for the dumb sounding question, I have spent a decent amount of time researching this but have not found it addressed anywhere.

Comments

  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    Options
    $300 will only buy an entry level power cord.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,906
    Options
    Because they are more desirable, usually have better sound/build quality. I don't even know where you can get one for the prices you stated.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • Mikey081057
    Options
    A/V pres have better quality components. Matching a quality A/V pre with 5 or 7 channels of high quality amplification outperforms any receiver internal amp. Usually they allow connecting via balanced interconnects which can lower the noise floor as well. I've tried them both ways and the separate A/V pre is far superior SQ wise.
    My New Year's resolution is 3840 × 2160

    Family Room| Marantz AV7704| Usher Dancer Mini - 2 DMD Mains |Usher Dancer Mini-x DMD's Surrounds | Usher BE-616 DMD Center | SVS Ultra Rear Surrounds | Parasound Halo A21 | Parsound Halo A52+ | MIT Shotgun S3's | Dual SVS SB 4000 Ultras | Oppo UDP 203 | Directv Genie HD DVR | Samsung 75" Q8 QLED | PSAudio Stellar GCD | Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ | Lumin U1 Mini | HP Elite Slice PC | ROON'd for life |

    ManCave: HT:Polk LSiM 706VR3 LSiM 703's LSiM 702's|| Marantz AV7002 AV PrePro Sunfire TGA-7401| Sony PS4 Pro| Sony PS4 Pro|SVS PB13 Ultra| Oppo UDP 203 | Music Hall MMF 5.3se TT w/ Soundsmith Carmen | Samsung 55" SUHD TV | Sony PS4

    Patio | Polk Atrium 8's | Yamaha R-N303BL |

    Office BlueSound Node| KEF LS50 | Peactree Nova 125SE |

    Bedroom | Focal 905's | Chromecast Audio |

    Garage | Polk Monitor 5B's

    Closet Yamaha M80 | 2 Polk MP3K subs| Yaqin MC100B with Shuguang Treasures KT 88's & CV181Z's | Tesla E83CC's | Marantz 2252B | Marantz 2385 |Polk SDA SRS 2.3 | LSiM 705's |
  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,372
    edited September 2019
    Options
    That's a good question. Outlaw Audio and Emotiva make less expensive AV preamps than the big companies do but one could say they are even overpriced for what they really are. One could also argue they only market such things because they want to sell amplifiers as well, which is their main product and profit center:

    https://emotiva.com/collections/processors/products/mc-700

    The big companies dropped AV preamps from their lineups for a while altogether and just marketed receivers for a number of years. Smaller companies like Parasound and B&K developed AV preamps independently for a while. Parasound dropped theirs altogether after they figured out they'd lose their shirts continuing in that market. B&K's development costs killed the company off. They were expensive propositions to develop.

    If the question is why companies like Marantz, Yamaha, and Integra market AV preamps that are as expensive as their top of the line receivers, it's because they know people who would buy an AV preamp want a quality product. Also, selling an inexpensive preamp would cause parasitic losses in their receiver line which is where they make their money. Quality costs money. The processing circuitry and power supply in a high quality AV preamp is superior to that in what may appear to superficially be the same in a receiver. And that's where the cost comes into play, both developmental costs and materials costs.

    Customers who are ok with mediocrity would most likely buy a $300 receiver anyway and be happy with it. The big companies cater to all price levels.

    As for me, I stopped buying AV preamps some years ago because they are too expensive to upgrade every few years and I'm not as particular about sound quality in home theater sound as I am about two channel sound. And I have enough room for two separate systems. If I had to have only one system, I would have an AV preamp instead of a home theater receiver.
  • jruder
    jruder Posts: 26
    edited September 2019
    Options
    @tonyb - the one in the price range I was referring to was the Outlaw.
    @Emlyn - That all makes a lot of sense.

    I wish I had room (well...and budget) for a high quality stereo only system.

    My basement has a full nightclub level system installed in it (powered JBL tops and bottoms with a full lighting rig) -- but I also use that same equipment for weddings and other rental type engagements.

    It is powerful but not at all what you would call super clean sounding.
    My actual HT was flooded a while back, and it has a older projector, plus it is a fairly small room.

    That leave the main living room and I spend most of my time there, so it has a new HT setup that does double duty as a music listening room.

    Most of what we listen to now days is videos or concerts anyway.

    Thanks for the answers.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,042
    Options
    This discussion is interesting to me in that it illustrates how different the HT market economics are compared to 2-channel stereo hifi audio.

    The small companies do all (OK... virtually all) of the high-end heavy lifting. Probably because licensing requirements are virtually nil; most everything's in the public domain (or proprietary -- i.e., 'trade secrets').

    The 21st century concepts of innovation sure are -- interesting. :|
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,042
    edited September 2019
    Options
  • pkquat
    pkquat Posts: 742
    edited September 2019
    Options
    A large part of it also has to do with consumer preference and the economy of scale. Sadly many of the components in the midrange AV preamps are the same as in the receivers. Minor performance gains are often achieved by having less other electronics in the same box that can cause interference. Much of the additional cost is due to the design, marketing, and support of the equipment. The demand for truely high end multi-channel is quite limited. Literally removing the amp section from a receiver would not be that be much savings due to the manufacturing changes and tracking required, not to mention some way to differentiate the two. While I am sure some would be fine with the size for some reduced cost, many would complain it is taking up too much space that is doing nothing... might as well buy the version that has the amps (even if they never use them at least it has a better chance of a resale).

    Most consumers want the included amps,and connect their speakers with budget cable for cost reasons. Explaining a person needs to purchase an additional 5-amps boggles their mind. Then come the question of where are they going to put these other amps, and wait, now, I have to buy cables to connect to each amp......

    If I recall correctly one or two of the major AVR brands tried marketing 7.1 Ch, 5 amp higher end systems. They used an old chassis and amps with new AVR boards and display. The thought was many people do buy or use a larger separate amp at least for their mains. They did not sell well. There was little if any price difference between the the systems that had 7 amps. There can be improved fidelity claims, but those people truly want separates and get down to specifics. These "card" amps are made in volume and removing 2 is really only minor savings. For the masses it is easier to include them.

    Oddly people are willing to pay for the addition of the pre-amp out addition to these AVR's. Many people dream or hope to run at least separates for mains even if they never use them. To others, pre-amp out is an extra cost feature and they go for the less expensive all in one that has a higher wattage output.

    There is also the development cost of the chip to do all the processing and the user interface. Some of these chips, while they may have acceptable D/A quality, can create a lot of their own noise that affect other components so shielding and heat become another design consideration.