Questions on water softeners

steveinaz · March 2019

We have a softener loop in our garage, and recent calcium problems with our pool has me thinking about getting a softener.

Has newer technology made softeners better? Easier to use? Any suggestions for a whole home softener?

mhardy6647 · March 2019

Well, they still use mixed bed ion exchange resins (i.e., anion exchanger and cation exchanger, mixed together in the tank), and still get regenerated with NaCl brine)

They are smarter in the sense that they actually keep track of how much water's gone through them (i.e., how much of their ion exchange capacity has actually been used up) before regenerating themselves.

The one we have in this house is pretty plain vanilla; seems to work OK, though.

aprazer402 · March 2019

Salt water pool? Pretty common problem, I know my uncle had an issue with that in his pool in Chandler some years ago. I wasn't around when he corrected it. He's dead now. Call your pool guy, I'm sure there's a fix, it's pretty common. You have a beautiful pool!!!!

EDIT: I re-read, you want to soften your house water. Plenty of methods, you got the loop ready, go for it! Mark has a good solution!

afterburnt · March 2019

I think you will give out feeding the thing enough salt to fill a pool

charley95 · March 2019

ohiopurewater.com I bought the traditional old school timer model from them bout 5 yrs. back. It does an excellent job and I've had zero issues with mine. It does regenerate on demand as needed. Had an older Culligan that could've been repaired but wasn't worth it due to the digital circuit board. Ohio has over the phone tech support and was very helpful on installation.

They also carry all replacement parts needed. I think mine is a 48k grain model, $560 delivered. Great company to work with!

steveinaz · March 2019

afterburnt wrote: »

I think you will give out feeding the thing enough salt to fill a pool

No intention of using it to refill the pool, but the absent calcium on the auto-fill will slowly decrease my pools CH levels.

steveinaz · March 2019

charley95 wrote: »

ohiopurewater.com I bought the traditional old school timer model from them bout 5 yrs. back. It does an excellent job and I've had zero issues with mine. It does regenerate on demand as needed. Had an older Culligan that could've been repaired but wasn't worth it due to the digital circuit board. Ohio has over the phone tech support and was very helpful on installation.

They also carry all replacement parts needed. I think mine is a 48k grain model, $560 delivered. Great company to work with!

Is it a Fleck softener system by chance?

steveinaz · March 2019

I'm looking for something dependable and repairable. I'm a DIY guy and want to maintain it myself. I like SIMPLE and functional.

tonyb · March 2019

Are you on well water or city water Steve ?

Calcium problems are usually just a trait of salt water pools. Happens slowly over time. If your getting those white deposits on the pool tile, sometimes just a stiff brush can remove them.

Not sure there's a better system than a reverse osmosis system for the whole house. Filters would need to be changed regularly and may be somewhat costly though. Most have a service to do it for you though.

charley95 · March 2019

Yes it is a Fleck. I wanted simple and repairable too. Ya get into the fancy digital stuff it gets too complicated and expensive. Tech told me the timer design has been around since 79. Great dealing with Ohio. Nice to just pick up phone and talk with a live person in case of an issue.

codycatalist · March 2019

Steve let me talk to my pops. He's maintained his pool quite well for the last 8 years in Mesa and we have HARD water.

steveinaz · March 2019

City water Tony. Our fill water is about 160ppm calcium hardness which is moderate to hard water. In pools, calcium is accumulative and with our extremely dry conditions, water evaporation has the auto-fill on the pool constantly refreshing with more calcium. Minerals don't evaporate and become concentrated over time. A water softener would allow me to "top-off" the pool with 0ppm Calcium water, to stretch out the regularity of doing partial drains on the pool to reduce TDS.

steveinaz · March 2019

Ok, I'm hearing both sides of the fence on this "you shouldn't drink softened water" issue and suspect it's mostly myth...as it seems the sodium levels would be extremely low in the water. What do you guys think? I'd rather not stack on a Reverse Osmosis unit, if all this 'don't drink it" hysteria is just the "hell no I'm not drinking out of a garden hose" crowd.

steveinaz · March 2019

codycatalist wrote: »

Steve let me talk to my pops. He's maintained his pool quite well for the last 8 years in Mesa and we have HARD water.

A lot of Arizonans just live with high calcium content by running higher pH, or some other balancing act of chemistry. This can work, but isn't ideal. Now, if you have a fiberglass or vinyl liner pool, calcium plays no role. But gunnite/plaster pools can degrade seriously under constantly high calcium concentrations.

pitdogg2 · March 2019

steveinaz wrote: »

Ok, I'm hearing both sides of the fence on this "you shouldn't drink softened water" issue and suspect it's mostly myth...as it seems the sodium levels would be extremely low in the water. What do you guys think? I'd rather not stack on a Reverse Osmosis unit, if all this 'don't drink it" hysteria is just the "hell no I'm not drinking out of a garden hose" crowd.

Plenty of folks have them for home drinking use for decades. If it was hazardous they'd been taken off the market years ago.

Mikey081057 · March 2019

Isn't city water pretty expensive in AZ Steve?

Wouldn't it be cheaper to use bottled water?

Mikey081057 · March 2019

problem with RO is the GPH produced is low until you go to a BIG RO system. A local water guy can give you the best advice on how to lower your Ca/ TDS. Even houshold RO's can leave you with 50ppm tds.

oldrocker · March 2019

Here in Indiana we have horrible rural water full of metals.

Our pool is not salt water and does not have the top off feature.

I top mine off from an outside hose that is not in the loop of our softener.

I installed a whole house filter system from HD, mounted it outside. Every year at opening I have to top it off and the filters seem to catch most particles. It's not the best but I have seen reductions in particle contaminates.

Cost was about 60 bucks and I go thru 2 filters a season.

This may not even be an option due to your water evap rate in that climate.

FWIW, softener works fine for us on everything else. I chose not to have the softener deliver water outside as I water my garden.

Hope you get a solution as you have an awesome looking back yard!!!

steveinaz · March 2019

Mikey081057 wrote: »

Isn't city water pretty expensive in AZ Steve?

Wouldn't it be cheaper to use bottled water?

Our water bill is pretty cheap actually, usually about $28 month.

Mikey081057 · March 2019

steveinaz wrote: »

Mikey081057 wrote: »

Isn't city water pretty expensive in AZ Steve?

Wouldn't it be cheaper to use bottled water?

Our water bill is pretty cheap actually, usually about $28 month.

OK you can shower now....

mhardy6647 · March 2019

steveinaz wrote: »

Ok, I'm hearing both sides of the fence on this "you shouldn't drink softened water" issue and suspect it's mostly myth...as it seems the sodium levels would be extremely low in the water. What do you guys think? I'd rather not stack on a Reverse Osmosis unit, if all this 'don't drink it" hysteria is just the "hell no I'm not drinking out of a garden hose" crowd.

Drinking softened water is fine -- the actual concentration of sodium being exchanged for calcium is low, even though two Na+ ions are exchanged for every Ca++ ion.

The solubility of calcium (in the form of Ca++ salts) in water near neutral pH is very low -- which is why it's a problem in the first place! Calcium (i.e., calcium salt) is much more water soluble at acid pH, which is why, at one point when saccharin was still a commonly used artificial sweetener in diet sodas, the calcium salt of saccharin was used instead of the sodium salt -- to make a 'low sodium' diet soda!. Calcium phosphate, in Diet Coke, is fairly soluble!

afterburnt · March 2019

steveinaz wrote: »

Ok, I'm hearing both sides of the fence on this "you shouldn't drink softened water" issue and suspect it's mostly myth...as it seems the sodium levels would be extremely low in the water. What do you guys think? I'd rather not stack on a Reverse Osmosis unit, if all this 'don't drink it" hysteria is just the "hell no I'm not drinking out of a garden hose" crowd.

It is high in sodium not low the softeners I know exchange sodium for scale formers in the water.

afterburnt · March 2019

pitdogg2 wrote: »

steveinaz wrote: »

Ok, I'm hearing both sides of the fence on this "you shouldn't drink softened water" issue and suspect it's mostly myth...as it seems the sodium levels would be extremely low in the water. What do you guys think? I'd rather not stack on a Reverse Osmosis unit, if all this 'don't drink it" hysteria is just the "hell no I'm not drinking out of a garden hose" crowd.

Plenty of folks have them for home drinking use for decades. If it was hazardous they'd been taken off the market years ago.

Hell they put flouride in yhe eater and thats poison

tonyb · March 2019

pitdogg2 wrote: »

steveinaz wrote: »

Ok, I'm hearing both sides of the fence on this "you shouldn't drink softened water" issue and suspect it's mostly myth...as it seems the sodium levels would be extremely low in the water. What do you guys think? I'd rather not stack on a Reverse Osmosis unit, if all this 'don't drink it" hysteria is just the "hell no I'm not drinking out of a garden hose" crowd.

Plenty of folks have them for home drinking use for decades. If it was hazardous they'd been taken off the market years ago.

Yeah, riiight….they also told those people in Detroit the water was safe. Didn't work out too well for them did it.

Most cities have to do a yearly analysis of the drinking water of which you can obtain those results from them. Most city treated water has loads of fluoride, chlorine, estrogen, and certain pharmaceuticals, along with trace amounts of arsenic that's naturally occurring but still not great for you. Not to mention god knows what chemicals they add to it.

If you guys could see the inside of a water main pipe, you might think twice. Calcified minerals line those pipes over time. If the crap in the water will calcify in an iron pipe, it might also do some damage to your innards too...over time.

tonyb · March 2019

Steve,

If your on city water and it's hard, you need a softner, period. Hard water isn't good for copper piping inside your house either. Plenty of options, from cheap to expensive, but they all basically do the same thing.

As others suggested, stay away from the digital kind, as when they break it isn't worth fixing. A whole house filtration system is probably the best, but also the most costly because there are filters to change.

As a side note, personally I don't care to drink water from the faucet, treated or softened. I just drink Fiji water in the bottle.

steveinaz · March 2019

Well, I've hit a different barrier. I have a complex watering situation for the yard plants and Bev's garden. I realize there is a by-pass on the softener, but with the numerous programmed times/etc...well....I don't think it'll work. Bev's NOT going to agree to hand watering everything again, and I agree.

mhardy6647 · March 2019

FWIW: Our hose bibbs are, umm, upstream of the softener at our house. That's pretty standard practice when softener systems are installed.

charley95 · March 2019

That's too bad it won't work for ya unless you find another way somehow. I love having soft water. Ya really notice the difference when your away from home without it.

steveinaz · March 2019

mhardy6647 wrote: »

FWIW: Our hose bibbs are, umm, upstream of the softener at our house. That's pretty standard practice when softener systems are installed.

That would be awesome, but I don't know how I would figure that out?

I just emailed the builder's customer service contact; the house was built in 2009, but we're not the original owners. We'll see what the response is concerning outdoor hose bibs. The house did come with the softener loop/drain pre-plumbed in the garage.

jeremymarcinko · March 2019

We had a Hague watermax whole house system and RO for the drinking water in our last house. Seemed fine, but did notice faucets there leaked and had deteriorated seals often.

Questions on water softeners

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