Elac Adante AF-61 (took some diy to make perfect)

13

Comments

  • joecoulson
    joecoulson Posts: 4,943
    Just wow.
    I have been sick for a few weeks now and with work starting to ramp up after the holiday I have not been able to truly get these things dialed in. They have been sounding great and imaging well just glorious. But today I moved everything.
    Speakers. Sub. Couch. All to dial in perfect synergy. Getting there. I keep experimenting with the toe in and have come to the conclusion that no toe in works best for my room. Off axis performance is mind blowing with the highs.
    Playing the sub in all of the different modes and settings I have settled on no room Gain, 80hz cutoff, no extra parameters except reducing the gain by 4db to get closer to the output of the Elacs.
    Playing Deep Forest and you would swear it’s a 5.1 disc. This has now truly become an experience as I cannot go through my music fast enough.
    Playing Enigma at reference levels was like hearing it for the first time. No break up during 95db+ transients
    The Linns are such a good match for them and I truly feel lucky for that. Could have been a bust on synergy.
    Caring less and less about the little work I had to do as the days pass and just know it’s only going to get better as these things break in and open up.
  • SIHAB
    SIHAB Posts: 4,493
    Interesting. Are you using a "cheater" CD like the stereophile test CD
    or just well known stuff? I was going to get LS50s for the small room
    second system but was afraid that because I would have to place them
    too close together I would have issues. Just wondering. Don't mean
    anything by it.
    Speakers: Polk Lsim, ATC SCM19 v2, NHT SuperzeroSpeaker Cables: DH Labs, Transparent, Wireworld, Canare, Monster: Beer budget, Bose ears
  • verb
    verb Posts: 10,176
    Joe sorry to hear you're not feeling well. Get better brother!
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
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    Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD.
  • joecoulson
    joecoulson Posts: 4,943
    Thanks Dave

    @SIHAB I am using CD’s that I have listened to probably a thousand times or more over the last 30+ years. Very familiar with the sound and imaging through the systems I have owned. I think (can’t say for sure on the KEF’s) that the concentric tweeter is better further apart. Not sure if that’s the same with mini monitors like the LS50’s but those are very intriguing. I would imagine they are slightly more focused than the Elac towers.
  • Tony M
    Tony M Posts: 11,009
    Interesting and insightful.

    Andrew responding to your query personally is FANTASTIC of him.

    Thanks for sharing the above with us.
    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • halo
    halo Posts: 5,616
    joecoulson wrote: »
    Those were ported correct?

    Yes, both the Energy and Elac speakers were rear ported.
    Audio: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * Polk S10 * SVS SB-1000 Pro
    HT: Samsung QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra LT * APC H10
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,560
    I'm very curious to hear how your guests enjoy them at your upcoming audio meet. If things go well I feel like ELAC will be selling a few more pairs of Adante towers.
  • joecoulson
    joecoulson Posts: 4,943
    Thanks Drew. Why don’t you fly out here and join??
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,560
    Holding out for Axpona!
  • Willow
    Willow Posts: 10,862
    Very nice speakers Joe. I was looking them over on CAM and saw a dealer offering them at 3k off the price and are in white. I was very intrigued to say the least.
  • joecoulson
    joecoulson Posts: 4,943
    Wow. The towers for $2k?!?? That’s a killer deal. Better than I got.
  • Willow
    Willow Posts: 10,862
    joecoulson wrote: »
    Wow. The towers for $2k?!?? That’s a killer deal. Better than I got.

    That's cad they were still almost 4k for the pair.
  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,124
    Willow wrote: »
    joecoulson wrote: »
    Wow. The towers for $2k?!?? That’s a killer deal. Better than I got.

    That's cad they were still almost 4k for the pair.

    Well why didn't you say so

    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
  • joecoulson
    joecoulson Posts: 4,943
    edited January 2019
    Ah. Yes that makes me feel better. Thank You
    Sounds about the same in USD as I got them.
  • joecoulson
    joecoulson Posts: 4,943
    I found this review to be good but the one thing he had a gripe with might have something to do with the sealing issues:

    https://www.stereophile.com/content/elac-adante-af-61-loudspeaker-measurements

    I email Andrew Jones (who might just hope I disappear now as I am sure he is too busy to respond) and asked him the following:

    Andrew – I came across these measurements in my perusing the internet with regards to the Adante’s:

    'link above'

    What I wonder is if the speaker reviewed was a first run (like the models I got – where QC was an issue) if that didn’t contribute to the sharper than expected roll off at 40hz (approx.) that the reviewer measured.
    I say this because after the exercise I ran through (sealing each enclosure as much as I possibly could – so much so that when pushing in on each passive radiator they take some time to extend back to a resting position) I am measuring extended response into the 30hz range. This sort of gain in the lower bass region I attribute to sealing those boxes entirely. Do you concur with this and if so what are your thoughts?



    I do hope he answers as I believe the bass response DRASTICALLY improved upon my completion of the work. Now that the drivers have had over 100 hours of varied use, they are fully broken in and shine beautifully. The only other thing I would like to see is a recommendation for more power. They say up to 160wpc, but I think that would be a min power amp rating as these things love power. The Linn's should be pumping 180wpc x 2 (bi-amped) into each tower and they take it in stride.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    edited January 2019
    joecoulson wrote: »
    I found this review to be good but the one thing he had a gripe with might have something to do with the sealing issues:

    https://www.stereophile.com/content/elac-adante-af-61-loudspeaker-measurements
    ...
    Totally see your point, and it's an interesting question* but (and this is just rhetorical; for the purposes of discussion) wouldn't one assume that a review pair would be assessed by the mfgr or their reps to be working properly? Or do you suppose something about the construction of these speakers interferes with them "shipping well"?
    I do hope he answers as I believe the bass response DRASTICALLY improved upon my completion of the work. Now that the drivers have had over 100 hours of varied use, they are fully broken in and shine beautifully.

    Strictly out of curiosity(!) -- How do you know they're fully broken in?
    The only other thing I would like to see is a recommendation for more power. They say up to 160wpc, but I think that would be a min power amp rating as these things love power. The Linn's should be pumping 180wpc x 2 (bi-amped) into each tower and they take it in stride.

    ____________
    * I assume (?) the "gripe" to which you refer is JA's comment:
    The lower-frequency rolloff is also fourth-order, with an approximate –6dB frequency of 40Hz—higher than I would have expected for such a large loudspeaker.
  • joecoulson
    joecoulson Posts: 4,943
    No to the roll-off comment, it was this one on page 1 of the review:

    While the initial listening tests were good, there was a distinct lack of impact below about 45Hz, obvious on material I know to have substantially extended bass.


    I actually don't know they are fully broken in, I can only assume after 100+ hours of playing that they should be mostly at their peak performance

    Andrew's response was:

    The probable reason you measure into the 30Hz range is due to room modes and gain. Basically if a speaker is totally flat response to 20Hz, for example, then the in-room response will be elevated due the effects of the room. (This is very pronounced in an in-car environment)
    It’s often the reason why adding a subwoofer to a stereo pair of speakers almost never sounds musical in the first instance.
    So a speaker that rolls of in the nearfield measurement can often sound a little better than one that doesn’t. But it all comes down to setup and positioning.


    and then a follow up comment (which I think is key here to the gripe)

    It’s also a case that the room that the reviewer uses is large with connected spaces, and he knows that a lot of loudspeakers don’t load well in that room.
    As always, rooms are critical to the performance of a speaker.



    I asked him about toe in as I have been back and forth on it and cant make my mind up. I either want them flat or very very slightly toe in (5deg or less)
    his response to my question: "As a side note, did you find toe in was necessary on these? I am finding better results without toe in and wondered if that was inherent or room specific?"

    Regarding toe in, this depends..!
    I never face concentric driver speakers directly at the listening position.
    I usually toe them in such that the axis crosses in front of the listener, or behind.
    It depends on how far apart the speakers are and how close to sidewalls.
    If the sidewalls are close, toe in in front of the listener helps minimize side wall reflections. It also helps develop a very focused center image, at the expense of soundfield size.
    If the speakers are far apart, then toe in in front gives you a large image plus center focus.
    If the speakers are close, then toe out to just behind the listener helps give a bigger image.


    I have yet to make a full conclusion on this but will say that if I want right in front of your face image presentation, I toe in slightly, but if I want huge soundstage, I leave them flat.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    joecoulson wrote: »
    No to the roll-off comment, it was this one on page 1 of the review:

    While the initial listening tests were good, there was a distinct lack of impact below about 45Hz, obvious on material I know to have substantially extended bass.
    Ahh, sorry -- I thought you pointed to the measurements. I've actually got the review part of the review open but I haven't read it yet! :#
    ...

    I asked him about toe in as I have been back and forth on it and cant make my mind up. I either want them flat or very very slightly toe in (5deg or less)
    his response to my question: "As a side note, did you find toe in was necessary on these? I am finding better results without toe in and wondered if that was inherent or room specific?"

    Regarding toe in, this depends..!
    I never face concentric driver speakers directly at the listening position.
    I usually toe them in such that the axis crosses in front of the listener, or behind.
    Interestingly, I used my Duplexes like that (crossed in front of the listening position) for many years: Altec Duplexes being among the first hifi "concentric" (coaxial) speakers (developed in 1943, and on the market shortly thereafter).

    [/quote]
    It depends on how far apart the speakers are and how close to sidewalls.
    If the sidewalls are close, toe in in front of the listener helps minimize side wall reflections. It also helps develop a very focused center image, at the expense of soundfield size.
    If the speakers are far apart, then toe in in front gives you a large image plus center focus.
    If the speakers are close, then toe out to just behind the listener helps give a bigger image.


    I have yet to make a full conclusion on this but will say that if I want right in front of your face image presentation, I toe in slightly, but if I want huge soundstage, I leave them flat.
    [/quote]

  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    edited January 2019
    joecoulson wrote: »
    No to the roll-off comment, it was this one on page 1 of the review:

    While the initial listening tests were good, there was a distinct lack of impact below about 45Hz, obvious on material I know to have substantially extended bass.
    Ahh, sorry -- I thought you pointed to the measurements. I've actually got the review part of the review open but I haven't read it yet! :#
    ...

    I asked him about toe in as I have been back and forth on it and cant make my mind up. I either want them flat or very very slightly toe in (5deg or less)
    his response to my question: "As a side note, did you find toe in was necessary on these? I am finding better results without toe in and wondered if that was inherent or room specific?"

    Regarding toe in, this depends..!
    I never face concentric driver speakers directly at the listening position.
    I usually toe them in such that the axis crosses in front of the listener, or behind.
    Interestingly, I used my Duplexes like that (crossed in front of the listening position) for many years: Altec Duplexes being among the first hifi "concentric" (coaxial) speakers (developed in 1943, and on the market shortly thereafter).
    It depends on how far apart the speakers are and how close to sidewalls.
    If the sidewalls are close, toe in in front of the listener helps minimize side wall reflections. It also helps develop a very focused center image, at the expense of soundfield size.
    If the speakers are far apart, then toe in in front gives you a large image plus center focus.
    If the speakers are close, then toe out to just behind the listener helps give a bigger image.


    I have yet to make a full conclusion on this but will say that if I want right in front of your face image presentation, I toe in slightly, but if I want huge soundstage, I leave them flat.

    ... Thanks!
  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,627
    Very interesting to read for many reasons.
    Loved the feedback from Mr. Jones and his ideas and comments.

    Was amazed at how brave the O.P. was with his DIY "Repairs" of the quality control issue!

    Hope it all works out well!
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    edited January 2019
    I think it is both excellent & very cool that @joecoulson got direct feedback from Andrew Jones. By all accounts he (Mr/Dr Jones that is*) is an approachable and refreshingly attitude-free hifi guru. There are a small but significant number of 'em, thankfully!

    This thread has motivated me to ask Mr/Dr Jones about his recommendations for stands/positioning for the little "Debuts". I am "on" LinkedIn with him (his standards of vetting LinkedIn contacts thus seem to be rather low :# ). EDIT: Derp. He is in fact on LinkedIn, but I am not "linked in" with him. :|Why did I think I was? I'm not usually delusional. ;)

    As an aside, there are a number of interesting hifi folks on LinkedIn -- in case all y'all might find that interesting.

    ________________
    * Not to say that @joecoulson isn't "approachable and refreshingly attitude-free"! ;) He certainly seems to be by all evidence at these forums!

  • joecoulson
    joecoulson Posts: 4,943
    LOL, thanks Mark
    I'll PM you info that you want
  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,627
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    I think it is both excellent & very cool that @joecoulson got direct feedback from Andrew Jones. By all accounts he (Mr/Dr Jones that is*) is an approachable and refreshingly attitude-free hifi guru. There are a small but significant number of 'em, thankfully!

    This thread has motivated me to ask Mr/Dr Jones about his recommendations for stands/positioning for the little "Debuts". I am "on" LinkedIn with him (his standards of vetting LinkedIn contacts thus seem to be rather low :# ). EDIT: Derp. He is in fact on LinkedIn, but I am not "linked in" with him. :|Why did I think I was? I'm not usually delusional. ;)

    As an aside, there are a number of interesting hifi folks on LinkedIn -- in case all y'all might find that interesting.

    ________________
    * Not to say that @joecoulson isn't "approachable and refreshingly attitude-free"! ;) He certainly seems to be by all evidence at these forums!

    You know, I was not sure if it was Mister/Doctor, but have mostly seen his name written as "Andrew Jones", but totally agree he is very approachable and interested in talking about his "Creations" and the engineering that goes into them!
  • Tony M
    Tony M Posts: 11,009
    edited January 2019
    I think Joe can call him Andy now. ;)
    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • joecoulson
    joecoulson Posts: 4,943
    He is approachable and an upstanding fellow. As Mark stated, unfortunately few and far between with the “designers” and decision makers these days.

    7f2kiol6c0ix.jpeg
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    edited January 2019
    ^^^ That is brilliant!
  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
    DSkip wrote: »
    Once you get to the high end and ultra high end, it becomes easier to run into the individual with their nose so high all you can see is the bottom of their chin.
    Man did I find this out years ago. There were several shops in the metro Detroit, Ann Arbor, Lasing area at that time. Some would not give you the time of day and some would let you bring your own CD's and listen all day.

    One sales guy even, After listening to my CD's for about an hour on the $25K-$30K+ systems at the time, made me go listen to the LARGE MartinLogans driven my the large tube monoblocks playing vinyl. Then, he dragged my over to the dimly lit space that was setup like a posh family room. Its had a full blown MacIntosh theater playing Jurassic park. He sat me down then walked out and locked the doors. LOL!

    Needless to say, the difference between shops was night and day!

    2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2
  • joecoulson
    joecoulson Posts: 4,943
    I have quite some time on these now and the bass has just kept on reaching deeper and deeper. The mids/highs have settled down some (maybe me just getting used to them?) and I can truly see why these are the top for AJ’s current offering.
    So in love with these towers. Can’t wait to get some of these peeps coming Saturday to hear them too.