SACD/DVD-A...revisted

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steveinaz
steveinaz Posts: 19,522
edited December 2004 in 2 Channel Audio
Absolutely: 29%
Most likely: 15%
Maybe: 26%
Not likely: 26%
Never: 3%

Above are the numbers from Stereophiles recent poll "Will hi-rez formats survive?"

Very close to the numbers I got here with my last poll on the same topic. It looks like even audiophiles are losing their confidence in hi-rezs' ability to stake a permanent place in audio. Many had the same sentiment I did; "average consumers" far out-number the "audio geeks."

What's your opinion?
Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
Post edited by steveinaz on
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  • bknauss
    bknauss Posts: 1,441
    edited November 2004
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    Couple of observations:
    1. Some of the DVDs/SACDs are engineered terribly. No, instruments do NOT come from the rear when you're at a concert... so why should they on a DVD/SACD? I believe even Hotel California on "When Hell Freezes Over" has that shaker in the back left.
    2. There really isn't all THAT much of an improvement between well engineered CDs and the DVDs/SACDs out there today (as an average, not comparing best to best). We're definitely not talking about a cassette to CD improvement in SQ.
    3. Great, just what people want to do, buy another piece of equipment (if they already had a non-DVDA player), and replace all of those CDs.
    4. The future of these formats is very foggy, so who wants to jump on board to the next technological pitfall like Laserdisc, 8 track, etc?
    Brian Knauss
    ex-Electrical Engineer for Polk
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,795
    edited November 2004
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    1. SACD in 2 channel on a pair of SDA's, it doesn't get any better.
    2.The difference can be amazing, gear quality plays into this as well.
    3.DVD-A? Don't bother, it's sinking faster than the Titanic.
    4.SACD is here to stay, perhaps not mainstream, but it's staying none the less.

    :D
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Danny Tse
    Danny Tse Posts: 5,206
    edited November 2004
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    F1 is right, SACD on 2 channel can be amazing. Prices of both players and discs are falling....Elton John's new album on SACD was $10.00 at Best Buy. More titles on SACD are being released everyday.

    DVD-A/DualDisc....future doesn't look good.
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  • bknauss
    bknauss Posts: 1,441
    edited November 2004
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    I disagree on SACD "making it" in the business:
    -More DVD/DVDA players than DVD/SACD players
    -Most people already have DVD players. The masses probably won't want to buy a replacement already.
    -The masses are familiar with the DVD name. SACD isn't as much of a household name.
    -I see SACD having a future like HDCD.

    That's my two cents. Agree or disagree at will :) Just remember, the best technology doesn't always win. The consumer masses decide what keeps afloat with stupid choices like "its a little smaller", "its cuter", "Bose told me so".
    Brian Knauss
    ex-Electrical Engineer for Polk
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  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited November 2004
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    two words - Sony Betamax

    VHS won that battle hands down.
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,795
    edited November 2004
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    It doesn't matter that "most" people own a DVD player, in fact most new DVD players also play SACD and CD, so that's a moot point.

    There are far, far more SACD releases than DVD-A's, in fact the release of new DVD-A's has slowed to a trickle while SACD has about 60 new releases per month. DualDisc is already dead in the water, so another moot point.

    I'm doing my part to spread the word on SACD, what are you doing?
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited November 2004
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    More DVD/DVDA players than DVD/SACD players
    I don't agree. Lets use Crutchfield as an example since they are a good mid level mass market e-tailer. DVD/DVD-A players = 17. DVD/SACD players = 20. These numbers include NO SACD/CD only players (add 3 to the list at Crutchfield) and no CD/DVD-A players (whoops - my bad - they don't exist). Granted MOST of the players above are universal players. Throw in the high end SACD/CD players and SACD capable players may outnumber DVD-A 2-1.
    Most people already have DVD players. The masses probably won't want to buy a replacement already.
    Irrelevant, since IMO SACD or DVD-A will not survive as a mass market media. Most consumers could give a rats **** about high resolution music. They may have an interest in multi-channel DVD MUSIC video but that is not necessarily hi-rez - more of a music movie. SACD will survive as a high resolution niche medium. Digital vinyl if you will. DVD-A will not because it was geared to the mass market DVD player crowd - but they have little interest in buying 3 sets of interconnects, and going through all the trouble to obtain the benefits of DVD-A. "Audiophiles" will go to the trouble (and relish the task) and SACD does and will continue to appeal to them (ie: F1nut).
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
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  • bknauss
    bknauss Posts: 1,441
    edited November 2004
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    Well then so be it. I guess I was wrong on the SACD/DVD player vs. DVDA/DVD player comment. I guess that was a while ago when I would actually step foot into a Best Buy and look at equipment... a couple years ago most likely :)

    Can everyone agree on this statement:
    SACDs and DVD-As will not replace CDs as the main uncompressed way to own music.
    Brian Knauss
    ex-Electrical Engineer for Polk
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited November 2004
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    Originally posted by bknauss
    Can everyone agree on this statement:
    SACDs and DVD-As will not replace CDs as the main uncompressed way to own music.
    It's not as much fun...but sure, I'll agree with this statement. It has been my opinion all along.
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
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  • Danny Tse
    Danny Tse Posts: 5,206
    edited November 2004
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    Originally posted by bknauss
    Can everyone agree on this statement:
    SACDs and DVD-As will not replace CDs as the main uncompressed way to own music.

    I will agree with that too. And I would think companies like Sony and Universal would agree with that as well.
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  • bknauss
    bknauss Posts: 1,441
    edited November 2004
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    Awwww... group hug! I'm glad I could make a statement that others could agree upon.

    Don't get me wrong, I love every little incremental improvement in sound quality, but money drives what's made and what isn't, and stupid uneducated consumers are what generally drives the audio market (as long as you're not catering to the upper ecelon of customers that a Meridian or whomever would be set toward).
    Brian Knauss
    ex-Electrical Engineer for Polk
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited November 2004
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    If I am a member of everyone
    and I own more high rez disc than redbook
    then hi rez has replaced redbook as the main way to own uncompressed music for at least one of everyone. :D

    Have a nice day.

    RT1
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  • Danny Tse
    Danny Tse Posts: 5,206
    edited November 2004
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    Strangely enough, at least recently, I have been buying more SACDs than regular CDs. Prices have dropped to the point where some of the SACD titles, like during the recent sale for RCA Living Presence SACD titles at Tower Records, were actually cheaper than CDs. This happened also for many pop titles as well. Since I am not one who buy much of the current music, the reissues of SACD have been great.

    I have no illusions that SACDs will ever be a mainstream format, but I do think it will make it as an audiophile format. Even if Sony, at least here in North America, decides to pull the plug on releasing SACDs.
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  • sowen010599
    sowen010599 Posts: 343
    edited November 2004
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    SACD is it for me. Why? Because hybrid disks are the best thing since sliced bread. Why? Because I don't have a friggin SACD/DVD-A player in my CAR.................yet.
    Go BIG or go home!
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited November 2004
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    Exactly, I really like it when the disc is hybrid, in fact, IMO ALL music discs should be in the hybrid format. Those not using hi rez players will simply play the disc as they always have, but nooooooooooo to simple of a solution. I thought the dual discs were going to do this but looks like not. Besides, those with CDP they really like are not likely going to want to change to a different player to hear a SACD/DVD-A disc.

    On a happier note I just picked up an Aimee Mann sacd/hybrid, Bachelor #2.
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  • bknauss
    bknauss Posts: 1,441
    edited November 2004
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    Originally posted by sowen010599
    SACD is it for me. Why? Because hybrid disks are the best thing since sliced bread. Why? Because I don't have a friggin SACD/DVD-A player in my CAR.................yet.

    Don't feel bad... SACD car players aren't available yet. I have heard rumors that one is under development, but that rumor might be a rumor.
    Brian Knauss
    ex-Electrical Engineer for Polk
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  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited November 2004
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    but isn't there one car maker that has a built in DVD-a system in it already? someone like Lexus or something.
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
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  • Danny Tse
    Danny Tse Posts: 5,206
    edited November 2004
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    Harmon International and Philips is joinly developing the car SACD player, while DVD-A is currently available on some Acura models.
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  • sowen010599
    sowen010599 Posts: 343
    edited November 2004
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    Acura........ WTF pffft. That would be good. My shiny new Acura hauling a 27' Bayliner, yeah that would be something to see.

    If it doesn't say Clarion, Alpine, or Eclipse on it, I'm not interested.

    Denon, hmmmmmmmmm, that would be interesting. If they could make an automotive head-unit with Burr Brown DAC's, SACD and maybe DVD-A, I would be all over it.

    Course, who could appreciate SACD over the rumble of a V8 or a diesel. I guess it doesn't matter so much.
    Go BIG or go home!
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  • Danny Tse
    Danny Tse Posts: 5,206
    edited November 2004
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    For aftermarket units, a couple of years back Panasonic had a DVD-A head unit that also included a build-in center channel speaker (??!!)
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  • bknauss
    bknauss Posts: 1,441
    edited November 2004
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    The new new Alpine F1 CD player also does DVD-A. You need to also buy the DAC or the processor for the DVD-A to work though.

    Barf, why can't someone other than Harman come out with an SACD player? It will most likely be an OEM thing for some luxury car.

    Denon makes car CD players, but nothing with next gen formats though. They're some of the best auto CD players out there.
    Brian Knauss
    ex-Electrical Engineer for Polk
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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited November 2004
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    I like vinyl..
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

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  • DesertPilot
    DesertPilot Posts: 57
    edited November 2004
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    I started a similar thread on another forum area. In my humble opinion, as soon as High Rez DVDs come out next year...there won't be any need for DVD-A or SACD. High Rez DVDs (Sony Blu Ray, for instance) will be eagerly purchased by the mass market to drive their High Def TVs.

    ....ahhhh...but once High Rez DVDs are out in the marketplace and the number of High Rez DVD units begins to make it economical....music will migrate over to that format. I betcha within 10 years...all car CD players will be replaced by high rez DVD players so the kids in the back seat can watch their favorite movies or Mom and Dad can display GPS street data on the DVD player screen. It seems inevitable that DVD-A and SACD will migrate over to High Rez DVD.

    Oh yeah...don't forget to look out for High Def radio. It's coming in 2005 to a station near you!

    Ha! you think everyone is confused now. Technology leaps in audio will be just like computers in the 90's.

    Marcus
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,795
    edited November 2004
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    Don't hold your breath!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,020
    edited November 2004
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    Why would the average consumer CARE about SACD?

    I mean the AVERAGE person out there has a HTIB or TV speakers, like they can really hear the sonic improvements? I doubt it...

    I mean I think the technology is great, but well ya know....

    Now if they replaced CDs with it, then maybe...and only then
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • Danny Tse
    Danny Tse Posts: 5,206
    edited November 2004
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    Nah, SACD is destined to be an audiophile niche format. Unless the "majors" all of a sudden decided to replace CD releases with multi-channel hybrid SACD releases. Even then, the vast majority of the consumers will just "enjoy" the CD layer.

    DVD-A has already stumbled in the marketplace. DualDisc "tripped" on its way out of the starting block. The general public don't really care about hi-rez or fidelity, they just want convenience. Like downloads....and I am sure the idea of "free" downloads is also in the equation somewhere.

    The people who post here, and in other audiophile-oriented forums, are in the extreme minority in the eyes of big multinational consumer electronics corporations and music companies. It's surprising to me that these companies have hung in there for so long.
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  • bknauss
    bknauss Posts: 1,441
    edited November 2004
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    Originally posted by DesertPilot
    I started a similar thread on another forum area. In my humble opinion, as soon as High Rez DVDs come out next year...there won't be any need for DVD-A or SACD. High Rez DVDs (Sony Blu Ray, for instance) will be eagerly purchased by the mass market to drive their High Def TVs.

    ....ahhhh...but once High Rez DVDs are out in the marketplace and the number of High Rez DVD units begins to make it economical....music will migrate over to that format. I betcha within 10 years...all car CD players will be replaced by high rez DVD players so the kids in the back seat can watch their favorite movies or Mom and Dad can display GPS street data on the DVD player screen. It seems inevitable that DVD-A and SACD will migrate over to High Rez DVD.

    Oh yeah...don't forget to look out for High Def radio. It's coming in 2005 to a station near you!

    Ha! you think everyone is confused now. Technology leaps in audio will be just like computers in the 90's.

    Marcus

    -Question: will HD-DVD be able to be played using today's run of the mill DVD players? If not... well, it'll take a while to be accepted (if at all).

    -I agree, if new players aren't needed, and HD-DVD becomes economical (costs the same as today's DVDs), I believe music will move onto this format. This would take a LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG while though before you start seeing a decent amount of music on HD-DVD though. I don't think there is any recording equipment out there for Blu Ray.

    -If HD-DVD even succeeds, it'll take a long time before it really takes over the car CD player market. If you're looking at the OEM market, look how long it took between CDs were introduced and CD players were the standard on all cars, or even close to all cars. As of maybe 5 years ago, I seem to remember some model cars not having CD players standard. Even Pathfinders of a handful of years ago still had CD/tape players.

    -HD Radio is only being produced by a handful of companies. Not many more aren't going to hop on until its proven as a successful venture. I'm not sure if any OEM manufacturers make it as of now.

    -I think the only confusion with leaps in audio are going to be predicting which formats will fail first ;)
    Brian Knauss
    ex-Electrical Engineer for Polk
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  • hejiraent
    hejiraent Posts: 126
    edited December 2004
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    Having listened to both, I continue to purchase SACD. When I hear a format that sounds better, I will switch to that.
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  • dmalino
    dmalino Posts: 36
    edited December 2004
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    I think that eventually all CDs will be in a high resolution format. The bulk of music distribution will be through Itunes style downloads. If you want great sound buy a CD. If you just want the songs download them.
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