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LSiM 706c out of phase in MCACC

dpowelldpowell Posts: 2,818
in Speakers
Each time I run MCACC on my Pioneer, the utility thinks that my 706c is out of phase. I have not had this issue with previous center speakers and I have triple checked that the wiring is correct. I just select the option to move on and all sounds fine. I'm just wondering if anyone else has seen this issue?
____________________________________________________________
polkaudio Fully Modded SDA SRS 2.3TL's + Dreadnaught, LSiM706c, 4 X TC265i Rears, SVS PB13 Ultra x 2
Pass Labs X1, Pioneer Elite SC-67, Sunfire Signature Cinema Grande 400, Oppo BDP-83SE, Sony SCD-C333ES
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  • Dennis GardnerDennis Gardner Posts: 4,804
    Check polarity with a AA battery to see if Polk actually wired it out of phase. Who knows, they are made by humans.
    HT Optoma HD25 LV on 80" DIY Screen, Anthem MRX 300 Receiver, Pioneer Elite BDP 51FD Polk CS350LS, Polk SDA1C, Polk FX300, Polk RT55, Dual EBS Adire Shiva 320watt tuned to 17hz, ICs-DIY Twisted Prs, Speaker-Raymond Cable

    2 Channel Thorens TD 318 Grado ZF1, SACD/CD Marantz 8260, Soundstream/Krell DAC1, Audio Mirror PP1, Odyssey Stratos, ADS L-1290, ICs-DIY Twisted , Speaker-Raymond Cable
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  • drumminmandrumminman Posts: 3,372
    FYI I don't use the auto calibration set up with my Yammy AVR. I do it by ear and find it much more to my liking. I start with all speakers at 0 decibals and adjust levels from there. Also, I run everything large, even the surrounds. I've tried it the conventional way (mains large surround small) and like the way this sounds better.

    You might try it manually and see what you think.
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer
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  • gcegce Posts: 2,178
    Dennis Gardner wrote: »
    Check polarity with a AA battery to see if Polk actually wired it out of phase. Who knows, they are made by humans.

    I put my LSiM703's in my system and I had the same error. Dennis, how do you check it with a AA batt?
    Anaheim Hills CA,
    HT 5.1: Anthem MRX 720 / BDP-Denon DBT1713UD / Polkaudio LSiM703 / W4S mAmp's / Polkaudio LSiM706c / Polkaudio LSiM702F/X's / SVS PC12-NSD / Panasonic TC P55VT30

    2 Channel: Rogue RP-5 / WireWorld Electra power cord / Marantz TT-15S1/ Ortofon - Quintet Black MC / Marantz NA8005 DAC / W4S mAmp's / Synology DS 216+ll-4TB / Polkaudio LSiM703
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  • Dennis GardnerDennis Gardner Posts: 4,804
    Placing the + & - speaker wires on the + & - battery posts should yield the speakers moving outward when the wires are touched to the post. It is easy to see with the woofers as they move the most. All speakers should move in the same direction, if they don't, they have been wired wrong, or the post nuts have been switched.
    HT Optoma HD25 LV on 80" DIY Screen, Anthem MRX 300 Receiver, Pioneer Elite BDP 51FD Polk CS350LS, Polk SDA1C, Polk FX300, Polk RT55, Dual EBS Adire Shiva 320watt tuned to 17hz, ICs-DIY Twisted Prs, Speaker-Raymond Cable

    2 Channel Thorens TD 318 Grado ZF1, SACD/CD Marantz 8260, Soundstream/Krell DAC1, Audio Mirror PP1, Odyssey Stratos, ADS L-1290, ICs-DIY Twisted , Speaker-Raymond Cable
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  • gcegce Posts: 2,178
    Thanks Dennis...I'll bet the tweeter is had to see. I'll check it out when I get home.
    Anaheim Hills CA,
    HT 5.1: Anthem MRX 720 / BDP-Denon DBT1713UD / Polkaudio LSiM703 / W4S mAmp's / Polkaudio LSiM706c / Polkaudio LSiM702F/X's / SVS PC12-NSD / Panasonic TC P55VT30

    2 Channel: Rogue RP-5 / WireWorld Electra power cord / Marantz TT-15S1/ Ortofon - Quintet Black MC / Marantz NA8005 DAC / W4S mAmp's / Synology DS 216+ll-4TB / Polkaudio LSiM703
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  • gumbay13gumbay13 Posts: 361
    gce wrote: »
    Dennis Gardner wrote: »
    Check polarity with a AA battery to see if Polk actually wired it out of phase. Who knows, they are made by humans.

    I put my LSiM703's in my system and I had the same error. Dennis, how do you check it with a AA batt?

    Interesting. I had the same error when i ran Audyssey on my 703s today.
    I just rechecked the speaker cable connections and once satisfied nothing was amiss, ignored the error and proceeded with the calibration

    I am beginning to wonder if i need to do some more investigation.

    AMP/Pre Pro: Outlaw 7000x, Marantz AV7703
    Speakers: Fronts:LSiM 705s/ Center: LSiM 706c / Surrounds: LSim 703s
    SUB: Rythmik LV12R x2
    Source:OPPO UDP-203
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  • blehmboblehmbo Posts: 180
    edited December 2014
    No need for alarm, the woofer in the LSiM703 is wired out of phase with the mid and tweeter by design. I can test my 706c later.
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  • gcegce Posts: 2,178
    blehmbo wrote: »
    No need for alarm, the woofer in the LSiM703 is wired out of phase with the mid and tweeter by design. I can test my 706c later.

    Really, so this is by design? How did you find this out, by testing or did you read this somewhere?

    Anaheim Hills CA,
    HT 5.1: Anthem MRX 720 / BDP-Denon DBT1713UD / Polkaudio LSiM703 / W4S mAmp's / Polkaudio LSiM706c / Polkaudio LSiM702F/X's / SVS PC12-NSD / Panasonic TC P55VT30

    2 Channel: Rogue RP-5 / WireWorld Electra power cord / Marantz TT-15S1/ Ortofon - Quintet Black MC / Marantz NA8005 DAC / W4S mAmp's / Synology DS 216+ll-4TB / Polkaudio LSiM703
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  • gumbay13gumbay13 Posts: 361
    So i ran Audyssey again.

    This time i had one lsim703 and one Rti A7 and again the LSim was the only speaker with the phase error. No errors on the A7
    I kept the A7 and swapped the other 703. Error still on the 703.

    Ran Audyssey on both A7s. No phase errors.

    Replaced them with the 703s, rechecked the cable connections and ran Audyssey and again the phase error.

    Previously i had just selected SKIP ERROR and moved on.
    This time just out of curiosity, I moved the positive connections to the negative terminals and vise versa (in contrast to the amplifier outputs) and this time no phase error!

    So it appears the "issue" is with the 703s.

    For what it is worth i have not noticed any difference in the sound IN or OUT of phase.
    May be I need to do a bit more critical listening.

    Also the last time i had a phase error, when doing Audyssey several months ago, the utility flagged the right rear surround speaker and lo and behold it was correct. I made the correct connection and all was well. I was impressed.
    So i am certain the receiver is not the issue here.


    AMP/Pre Pro: Outlaw 7000x, Marantz AV7703
    Speakers: Fronts:LSiM 705s/ Center: LSiM 706c / Surrounds: LSim 703s
    SUB: Rythmik LV12R x2
    Source:OPPO UDP-203
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  • WLDockWLDock Posts: 2,672
    edited December 2014
    The 703 and 706 are 3-way designs with 4-way crossovers that have 18dB,18dB,12dB,6dB slopes. It would not be surprising if a driver is wired out of phase to bring things back in phase due to the crossovers.

    I've gotten this same error with my current RT3000 right speaker when I had a Pioneer SC unit. The speaker is closer to the wall and I did not have room treatments. It did not fail all the time depending on where I placed the mic. So, mine was more a reflective error.
    Post edited by WLDock on
    FAMILY ROOM
    HDTV - Sharp AQUOS LC-70LE600U 70" | AVR/Streamer - Onkyo TX-NR3008 | Amp - Parasound HCA-1203A
    Blu-Ray/Media/Gaming - Sony PS3-320GB / Microsoft Xbox One | Broadcast - Xfinity X1 Platform
    Front Spkrs - Coming...DIY Statement II | Center Spkrs - Coming...DIY Statement II | Rear Spkrs - Artison Portrait LRS
    Sub - DIY Stereo Integrity HT 15 | Sub Amp - Dayton Audio SA1000
    Wire - Audioquest Type 4, BJC Belden 5000 | HDMI - BJC Belden | Power Cables - Pangea | Surge - Monster
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  • blehmboblehmbo Posts: 180
    edited December 2014
    gce wrote: »
    Really, so this is by design? How did you find this out, by testing or did you read this somewhere?

    I found this out (speaking for the 703) by testing and looking at the printing on the crossover board, the + of the woofer connects to the negative side of the crossover circuit.
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  • gcegce Posts: 2,178
    edited December 2014
    Ok, So if I test the phase with the AA batt. on the lower posts the woofer should move IN and if I test using the top posts the tweeter and mid should move OUT...right?
    Anaheim Hills CA,
    HT 5.1: Anthem MRX 720 / BDP-Denon DBT1713UD / Polkaudio LSiM703 / W4S mAmp's / Polkaudio LSiM706c / Polkaudio LSiM702F/X's / SVS PC12-NSD / Panasonic TC P55VT30

    2 Channel: Rogue RP-5 / WireWorld Electra power cord / Marantz TT-15S1/ Ortofon - Quintet Black MC / Marantz NA8005 DAC / W4S mAmp's / Synology DS 216+ll-4TB / Polkaudio LSiM703
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  • blehmboblehmbo Posts: 180
    gce wrote: »
    Ok, So if I test the phase with the AA batt. on the lower posts the woofer should move IN and if I test using the top posts the tweeter and mid should move OUT...right?

    You shouldn't see the tweeter or mid move since they have capacitors in series which block DC, but the woofer should move inward with + to + and - to -.
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  • ConradiclesConradicles Posts: 5,891
    blehmbo wrote: »
    No need for alarm, the woofer in the LSiM703 is wired out of phase with the mid and tweeter by design. I can test my 706c later.

    Why?
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  • WLDockWLDock Posts: 2,672
    edited December 2014
    Because of phase shift at the crossover frequency. Sometimes you have to reverse the phase of a driver to help the flatten the combined acoustical output.
    FAMILY ROOM
    HDTV - Sharp AQUOS LC-70LE600U 70" | AVR/Streamer - Onkyo TX-NR3008 | Amp - Parasound HCA-1203A
    Blu-Ray/Media/Gaming - Sony PS3-320GB / Microsoft Xbox One | Broadcast - Xfinity X1 Platform
    Front Spkrs - Coming...DIY Statement II | Center Spkrs - Coming...DIY Statement II | Rear Spkrs - Artison Portrait LRS
    Sub - DIY Stereo Integrity HT 15 | Sub Amp - Dayton Audio SA1000
    Wire - Audioquest Type 4, BJC Belden 5000 | HDMI - BJC Belden | Power Cables - Pangea | Surge - Monster
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  • dpowelldpowell Posts: 2,818
    I found the same to be true when I switched the speaker connections to what would normally be "out of phase". MCACC did not find a phase issue in that configuration. I switched the wires back since I did not purposefully want to connect the speaker improperly and just moved on. Glad to hear I'm not the only one that has run into this. Surely Polk must have found this during quality testing and should have some insight or at least put our minds at ease that this is normal.
    ____________________________________________________________
    polkaudio Fully Modded SDA SRS 2.3TL's + Dreadnaught, LSiM706c, 4 X TC265i Rears, SVS PB13 Ultra x 2
    Pass Labs X1, Pioneer Elite SC-67, Sunfire Signature Cinema Grande 400, Oppo BDP-83SE, Sony SCD-C333ES
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  • 1Locoweed1Locoweed Posts: 12
    I called tech support this morning & verified that this is intentional. Ken said it is due to a second order filter.
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  • WLDockWLDock Posts: 2,672
    Due to phase shift. The driver is generally wired out of phase when using a 12dB/Oct crossover.

    6dB/Oct = 90 degrees
    12dB/Oct = 180 degrees
    18dB/Oct = 270 degrees
    24dB/Oct = 0 degrees
    FAMILY ROOM
    HDTV - Sharp AQUOS LC-70LE600U 70" | AVR/Streamer - Onkyo TX-NR3008 | Amp - Parasound HCA-1203A
    Blu-Ray/Media/Gaming - Sony PS3-320GB / Microsoft Xbox One | Broadcast - Xfinity X1 Platform
    Front Spkrs - Coming...DIY Statement II | Center Spkrs - Coming...DIY Statement II | Rear Spkrs - Artison Portrait LRS
    Sub - DIY Stereo Integrity HT 15 | Sub Amp - Dayton Audio SA1000
    Wire - Audioquest Type 4, BJC Belden 5000 | HDMI - BJC Belden | Power Cables - Pangea | Surge - Monster
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  • gcegce Posts: 2,178
    1Locoweed wrote: »
    I called tech support this morning & verified that this is intentional. Ken said it is due to a second order filter.

    Thanks for that. Its always good to hear it from the horses month.
    Anaheim Hills CA,
    HT 5.1: Anthem MRX 720 / BDP-Denon DBT1713UD / Polkaudio LSiM703 / W4S mAmp's / Polkaudio LSiM706c / Polkaudio LSiM702F/X's / SVS PC12-NSD / Panasonic TC P55VT30

    2 Channel: Rogue RP-5 / WireWorld Electra power cord / Marantz TT-15S1/ Ortofon - Quintet Black MC / Marantz NA8005 DAC / W4S mAmp's / Synology DS 216+ll-4TB / Polkaudio LSiM703
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