Looking for advice: Modern vs. vintage turntables?

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Timothy Smith
Timothy Smith Posts: 764
in 2 Channel Audio
I am currently considering buying a Pro-Ject RM-1.3 turntable (O.K. maybe partially because it looks so cool). I am still using a Thorens TD-160 turntable that I have had for almost 40 years.
My question: In terms of sound quality, has the state of the art really changed that much for turntables in that amount time?

Thanks!
Norh ACA-2B tube pre, Sumo Andromeda SS amp. Magneplanar MMG speakers, M&K MX1250 Subwoofer, Pro-Ject RM1.3 Genie TT with Sumiko Pearl MM cart., Keces DAC, Cambridge Audio Azur 640c CD player
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  • Msabot1
    Msabot1 Posts: 2,098
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    Heck...go for it..keep your Thorens though..I kept my old Dual 1229... My main table now is a Music Hall 5.1...and yes,there have been noticeable advancements in motors..platters and most important..tonearm and cartridge combos...
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  • Montoya
    Montoya Posts: 506
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    A word from the wise keep your current Thorens and save for something that will give you a huge upgrade. You will be happier in the end I learned the hard way. As it turns out I should have just saved for the VPI Classic I currently have instead of going through three cheaper models previous to its purchase. Now I don't jump the gun I shoot for the most I can afford and make that my goal even if I have to wait.
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  • xsmi
    xsmi Posts: 1,786
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    I like the look of the 1.3 as well and when I was buying my machine, I was looking for one used. The reason is, in Europe, it's cheaper than the Carbon. No one could give me a legitimate reason why. I ended up with the Carbon which I love. Whether or not it's better than a vintage TT, I can't answer that, but I know that it is DEAD quiet on clean records.
    2-channelBelles 22A Pre, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Marantz SA8005, Pro-Ject RPM-10 Turntable, Pro-Ject Phono Box DS3B, Polk Audio Legend L800's, AudioQuest Cable throughout.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,037
    edited November 2014
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    I think this is a harder to answer question than you might think -- at the low end (which nowadays, to me means sub-$1k), I think that the vintage turntables had the edge -- mostly due to demand and consequent economy of scale. The Technics direct-drive tts of the 1970s were superbly built and high-performing devices given their selling prices. I am more impressed with them today, in retrospect, than I was back when they were new.

    At the high end - things get much murkier - the best classic turntables (virtually all of the Fairchilds, the Thorens TD-124, the Garrard 301 and 401, the better Rek-O-Kuts, and even the classic Empire tables) were just plain excellent -- and many command very high prices even today. Some of the classic arms were also very good, too.

    14329821567_8731f1070d_b.jpgDSC_5243 by mhardy6647, on Flickr
    BUT...

    The better tables and arms of today are absolutely superb and easily in the same class a much of the classic stuff. In either case, the cost of entry ain't a gonna-be cheap.

    In terms of modern arms - there are tons of good choices (probably more different high-quality arms and makers now than in the '70s!). I am awfully partial to the Thomas Schick arms... someday, someday :- )

    http://www.thomas-schick.com/arm01.htm
    Post edited by mhardy6647 on
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  • voltz
    voltz Posts: 5,384
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    I also grabbed the Debut carbon and figure if I got into vinyl really big again I'd just upgrade, but I am still plenty happy with my Carbon and the only reason I'd upgrade is for looks LOL I wish I had a olive wood pro-ject or VPI classic in a nice wood finish. but I know thats not why we buy them is it?
    2 ch- Polk CRS+ * Vincent SA-31MK Preamp * Vincent Sp-331 Amp * Marantz SA8005 SACD * Project Xperience Classic TT * Sumiko Blue Point #2 MC cartridge

    HT - Polk 703's * NAD T-758 * Adcom 5503 * Oppo 103 * Samsung 60" series 8 LCD
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  • Upstatemax
    Upstatemax Posts: 2,623
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    I replaced my old Thorens TD-166 with a Debut Carbon and I like my Carbon A LOT.

    I think the vintage stuff can be nice but you need to be ready to drop a lot of money on them to get them back to prime playing shape most of the time.

    I found a wider stage and a more vibrant sound from the Carbon over the Thorens. Naturally a lot of the overall sound will have to do with the cart though...
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  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,314
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    or you can take what you have and do some upgrades on it. The 160 was a solid turntable and can be upgraded. Have you had any work done to it? What kind of cart. do you have on it?
    http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/a-nifty-turntable-that-ive-been-playing-with-the-thorens-td-160-super-repro-from-vinyl-nirvana.359342/
    Klipsch The Nines, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
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  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,314
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    http://www.theanalogdept.com/thorens_tweaks.htm
    sorry i fgorgot one
    Klipsch The Nines, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
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  • markmarc
    markmarc Posts: 2,309
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    I agree with keeping the Thorens and doing upgrades. Do some research on reputable Thorens upgrades.
    Review Site_ (((AudioPursuit)))
    Founder/Publisher Affordable$$Audio 2006-13.
    Former Staff Member TONEAudio
    2 Ch. System
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  • EricMB
    EricMB Posts: 16
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    I also agree to keep the Thorens. I have a vintage Pioneer PL-516. Love the features it has that doesn't seem to exist with modern Turntables. Auto Return is a plus for me!
    HiFi Setup: Luxman L-100U and T-110, Pioneer PL-516, Sony DVP-NS57P, Polk LSiM703, Polk DSW Pro 440wi

    Home Theater Setup: Onkyo TX-NR709, Polk LSi7, Polk LSiC, AR Sub
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  • Timothy Smith
    Timothy Smith Posts: 764
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    Guys, I ended up buying the Pro-Ject Genie turntable, and I have to say that I think it sounds better than the Thorens ever did. Still messing around with it. Some of the difference could be the Sumiko Pearl cartridge which sounds really sweet.
    Norh ACA-2B tube pre, Sumo Andromeda SS amp. Magneplanar MMG speakers, M&K MX1250 Subwoofer, Pro-Ject RM1.3 Genie TT with Sumiko Pearl MM cart., Keces DAC, Cambridge Audio Azur 640c CD player
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  • chumlie
    chumlie Posts: 8,658
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    Am I the only one who wishes they would come out with a quality automatic or at least auto return ?
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  • dromunds
    dromunds Posts: 9,981
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    No, you're not alone
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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 10,716
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    You're not alone w/ a quality automatic…
    It's been a deal breaker so far as I'm lazy!
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  • voltz
    voltz Posts: 5,384
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    Congrats on the new TT! They use to use the same Ortofon 2m as the Carbon, the Sumiko Pearl is something they must have change to. Curious the difference between the 2
    2 ch- Polk CRS+ * Vincent SA-31MK Preamp * Vincent Sp-331 Amp * Marantz SA8005 SACD * Project Xperience Classic TT * Sumiko Blue Point #2 MC cartridge

    HT - Polk 703's * NAD T-758 * Adcom 5503 * Oppo 103 * Samsung 60" series 8 LCD
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,095
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    chumlie wrote: »
    Am I the only one who wishes they would come out with a quality automatic or at least auto return ?

    Just no stackers please...
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,037
    edited December 2014
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    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    chumlie wrote: »
    Am I the only one who wishes they would come out with a quality automatic or at least auto return ?

    Just no stackers please...

    Not even a Thorens?

    tdw224_1.jpg

    :- )
    http://www.theanalogdept.com/tdw224.htm

    or an Avery Fisher-era Fisher (actually, in the interest of full and complete disclosure, a Lincoln Series 50) changer?

    http://myvintagetv.com/updates2/lincoln/lincoln_changer.htm

    HPIM2330.JPG
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  • gdb
    gdb Posts: 6,012
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    chumlie wrote: »
    Am I the only one who wishes they would come out with a quality automatic or at least auto return ?



    How about just an auto arm lift ? If I'd gone with a TD 160 I would have gotten one of the Q ups. I went with a TD 145 that is "semi-auto" instead.

    http://youtu.be/JjvxV0rU2lE

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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
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    chumlie wrote: »
    Am I the only one who wishes they would come out with a quality automatic or at least auto return ?

    Plus a tall spindle so you can put multiple records on it.

    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
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    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,095
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    BlueFox wrote: »
    chumlie wrote: »
    Am I the only one who wishes they would come out with a quality automatic or at least auto return ?

    Plus a tall spindle so you can put multiple records on it.

    A great way to destroy a nice MoFi collection.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • specd_out
    specd_out Posts: 505
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    I just picked up a RM 1.3 in White and I love it. Granted I came from a Dual 1257 Changer that was on its last leg.

    What I love about the RM 1.3 is its simplicity. Nothing overly engineered, nothing automatic. Just the basics, and a fantastic sound.

    Couple of tips I found. Get or make a cork mat. Makes a nice improvement in sound.
    Make sure you have it on a solid base. I was getting motor hum on my hollow
    lack table. I got 3 12x12 granite tiles from home depot ( about $4 each) stacked them with 5 balls of blue tack spaced out on each layer. Now motor hum is completely gone and it sounds sweet.
    HT Rig Samsung 64F8500 |Pioneer Elite BDP-52FD|Pioneer Elite VSX-32| Two Carver TFM-15cb Bridged for mains|Polk Audio RTiA5 Cherry|Polk Audio CsiA6 Cherry|Polk Audio T-15 Heights|Polk Audio FXia6 Surround|DIY 8cuft Dayton Ultimax 15" powered with a Crown XLS1000
    2Channel Rig Polk Audio LSi9 Cherry| Carver C-1BillD Mod|Carver M1.0t MkII Opt2|Pro-ject RM 1.3|SpeedBox S|AQ King Cobras|AQ Rocket88|
    ISF Level 2 Certified Calibrator
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,352
    edited January 2015
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    I like modern upgrades on vintage tables. Lenco L75 idler with air bearing arm, heavy stainless aftermarket bearing. It's big time audio gain for what I have invested in it.

    lenco_1.jpg

    lenco_wrapped.jpg
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • MrBuhl
    MrBuhl Posts: 2,419
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    ^^ That's a beautiful plinth ScompRacer! ^^ I have visions one day of making something like that for my Dual 1229 idler. Really sweet.
    VA HT HK AVR20II, Sony S9000ES CD/DVD/SACD, Polk Audio RC80i / Polk Audio CSi3, 60" Panasonic Plasma, Nordost / Signal Cable A2 / Wireworld / Pangea / Magic Power
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  • Simplyrandom
    Simplyrandom Posts: 119
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    I paid a tad over a 100 for my Pioneer PL-10 and replaced the cheap AT cartridge the fella had on it for a Grado Green and I am happy with it. Its simple and reliable. The fella I bought it from is an older guy that restores old tube 45 changers. The only other issue I had was the damping foam in the springs of the base had deteriated and I replaced it with cotton balls. Maybe one day I will locate a suitable replacement but for now I just enjoy it.
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