Long USB runs.

brgman
brgman Posts: 2,859
edited September 2011 in Electronics
I may have a need to run a 30 foot stretch of USB to mini USB and with a little research i see they have "boosters" for lack of a better term but most of what i've seen are multi port.
I just need one run from my pc to a dac.
Any suggestions?
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Comments

  • JimAckley
    JimAckley Posts: 1,138
    edited September 2011
    Well supposedly after 16' the signal degrades a lot. The longest I've ever run was 14', and didn't have any issues, but 30' is quite a bit further, so maybe look into an active booster/repeater of some sort.
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  • Joe08867
    Joe08867 Posts: 3,919
    edited September 2011
    Can you use another type of connection? Or is USB your only choice?

    30' is a bit to far imho even with a repeater.
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  • brgman
    brgman Posts: 2,859
    edited September 2011
    That's what i'm afraid of.Too long.
    I may have to look for other options.It doesn't have Ethernet connection so usb was it.I did see the 15ft max issue.I was just wondering if someone made a very good booster/repeater.
    Funny that wouldn't be easier to find as popular as usb is these days.
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  • stuwee
    stuwee Posts: 1,508
    edited September 2011
    I had a friend run a 30' run with some cable from a TV station, I'm not sure if even the station knew what kind it was, maybe contact one near you and see what they use? Just a thought :smile:
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  • Tbone289
    Tbone289 Posts: 661
    edited September 2011
    I've always tried to keep USB links to DACs to a minimum....

    But, after reading this, I wonder.... In the case of a USB DAC, is is best to keep the USB cord short and lengthen the analog IC's, or vice versa?
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  • CoolJazz
    CoolJazz Posts: 572
    edited September 2011
    There are USB extenders. They are a two ended device that you put Cat cable in between. You can run hundreds of feet with them.

    The cheapest are, last I've seen, around the $100 price point give or take about $20. Good, multi port ones I was able to get at one time for around $450. But last time I looked could only find one a couple hundred higher! The cheaper ones are often used for video security camera type stuff and may be found in those kinds of places that supply that field.

    Search for "USB extender" and you shall find.

    CJ

    PS...can't address the use intended.
    A so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."

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  • brgman
    brgman Posts: 2,859
    edited September 2011
    Thanks for the input fellas.
    Main Rig-Realistic AM/FM Record player 8 track boasting 4 WPC

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  • Marty913
    Marty913 Posts: 760
    edited September 2011
    CoolJazz wrote: »
    There are USB extenders. They are a two ended device that you put Cat cable in between. You can run hundreds of feet with them.

    The cheapest are, last I've seen, around the $100 price point give or take about $20. Good, multi port ones I was able to get at one time for around $450. But last time I looked could only find one a couple hundred higher! The cheaper ones are often used for video security camera type stuff and may be found in those kinds of places that supply that field.

    Search for "USB extender" and you shall find.

    CJ

    PS...can't address the use intended.

    I tried several of the extenders such as the USB--CAT5--USB (in the $40 - $60) range trying so solve a printer / copier problem for a customer. They didn't work very well on USB 2.0 devices, only USB 1.1). One would connect but repeatedly drop the connection over even short distances. If you find a USB 2.0 certified one it will be expensive.

    I also tried several brands of the "self powered" USB-only (does not use CAT5 in the middle) types without much more luck. They do connect beyond the 16.6 feet USB limit but occasional will lose the handshake, drop bits, etc. Even tried them with a powered hub on one end which helped a little. USB 1.1 devices (keyboards, mice, remotes) were fine but I wouldn't trust an audio signal with any of them.
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  • falconcry72
    falconcry72 Posts: 3,580
    edited September 2011
    CoolJazz wrote: »
    ...They are a two ended device that you put Cat cable in between. ....

    Thanks CoolJazz; I was looking for something like this.:smile:


    Here's a bunch at ebay:

    http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=cat5+usb+extender

    It seems the better ones include an external power supply, can support lengths over 300ft, and cost between 50-75 bucks. Here's one:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-2-0-Over-Cat5-Extender-330-ft-w-built-power-/130513531430?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e63367226#ht_3149wt_905

    The cheaper ones don't have an external power supply, support distances over 100ft, and can be had for under 20 bucks. Here's one:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-Extender-over-Cat5-UTP-Cable-up-50-m-150-ft-/400236933275?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d2ffaf09b#ht_1603wt_1139



    I don't know if the cheaper ones are actually drawing power from the USB connection or not. If they are, then I'd say it would be worth it to get a better one with the external supply to keep your DAC galvanically isolated from your computer.

    The type of DAC you're using will make a difference as to whether the galvanic isolation is really going to be noticeable. If your DAC employees an asynchronous USB connection, and is of high quality, then I'd say it would be especially worth it to get one with an external power supply.


    Somebody get one and tell me if it works well.:wink:
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  • falconcry72
    falconcry72 Posts: 3,580
    edited September 2011
    Marty913 wrote: »
    I tried several of the extenders such as the USB--CAT5--USB (in the $40 - $60) range trying so solve a printer / copier problem for a customer. They didn't work very well on USB 2.0 devices...

    hmm. Maybe I'll keep looking...

    The better one I listed above says it works with USB 2.0. It also comes with its own driver CD. Not sure if that means anything. Did you try any that came with a driver?
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  • brgman
    brgman Posts: 2,859
    edited September 2011
    check tigerdirect also
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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,499
    edited September 2011
    I am a sercurity and network integrator over the years used many extenders of different types...cheap was usually a failure. Gefen has always been a very stable and reliable....but you get what you pay for and they are not cheap. I have also never tried using this unit for audio. Gefen support is good and they carry multimedia equipment extenders, splitters, and multiplexers also and could better tell you the results for audio.

    Cheers


    http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=5529

    http://www.overstock.com/Electronics/Gefen-EXT-USB2.0-LR-USB-Extender/3989230/product.html?cid=123620
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,312
    edited September 2011
    Ditto in the Cat 5 extender , it's the only way to go long runs and retain signal.

    Gefen and Key Digital are the best brands out there.
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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,499
    edited September 2011
    but by the time you spend that kind of money you might as well get a Squeeze box or a Sonos
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  • Marty913
    Marty913 Posts: 760
    edited September 2011
    falconcry72 wrote: »
    Thanks CoolJazz; I was looking for something like this.:smile:
    Here's a bunch at ebay:
    http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=cat5+usb+extender
    It seems the better ones include an external power supply, can support lengths over 300ft, and cost between 50-75 bucks. Here's one:
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-2-0-Over-Cat5-Extender-330-ft-w-built-power-/130513531430?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e63367226#ht_3149wt_905
    The cheaper ones don't have an external power supply, support distances over 100ft, and can be had for under 20 bucks. Here's one:
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-Extender-over-Cat5-UTP-Cable-up-50-m-150-ft-/400236933275?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d2ffaf09b#ht_1603wt_1139


    I don't know if the cheaper ones are actually drawing power from the USB connection or not. If they are, then I'd say it would be worth it to get a better one with the external supply to keep your DAC galvanically isolated from your computer.

    The type of DAC you're using will make a difference as to whether the galvanic isolation is really going to be noticeable. If your DAC employees an asynchronous USB connection, and is of high quality, then I'd say it would be especially worth it to get one with an external power supply.


    Somebody get one and tell me if it works well.:wink:

    These are the ones I tried. The first two are CAT-5/6 extenders and were the worst of the three. The last one worked perfectly at 16 feet (one cable), a few drops with two cables together (32 feet) and a whole lot of drops after that.

    http://www.amazon.com/IOGEAR-Ethernet-Extender-GUCE51-Black/dp/B000O2X2OA

    http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=usb+to+cat5+extenders&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=3404079011108277839&sa=X&ei=DMJoTvq4BcrlsQKmucj8DQ&ved=0CHUQ8wIwBA

    http://www.trendnet.com/products/proddetail.asp?prod=170_TU2-EX5&cat=32

    I did not try the $300+ ones like the Geffen (customer didn't want to spend that much & there were other solutions anyway). The cheaper ones use the 5V power from the USB line to "regenerate" the transmit / receive lines. A powered connector may do a better job - but as I said, they are expensive.
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  • brgman
    brgman Posts: 2,859
    edited September 2011
    That's more my speed.
    I cannot afford a grand or so for a dac and 500 more just to run the line.
    i will look at picking one of these up
    hell if it doesnt work i'm only out 25 buck.thanks
    Main Rig-Realistic AM/FM Record player 8 track boasting 4 WPC

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  • CoolJazz
    CoolJazz Posts: 572
    edited September 2011
    I'd be surprised if a cheap one worked well.

    Perhaps a better solution would be to use AES/EBU. It's isolated and can run very long distances. It was intended to transport audio whereas the USB was originally created for control.

    CJ
    A so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."

    More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping."
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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited September 2011
    CoolJazz wrote: »
    I'd be surprised if a cheap one worked well.

    Perhaps a better solution would be to use AES/EBU. It's isolated and can run very long distances. It was intended to transport audio whereas the USB was originally created for control.

    I would agree. A cheap USB to SPDIF/AES/EBU converter would be a better option than a cheap USB extender. I have to run across my living room, and both SPDIF optical and digital coax work great. USB is just not made for long runs since it require communication back and forth between the two devices.
    Jake
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  • brgman
    brgman Posts: 2,859
    edited September 2011
    zingo wrote: »
    I would agree. A cheap USB to SPDIF/AES/EBU converter would be a better option than a cheap USB extender. I have to run across my living room, and both SPDIF optical and digital coax work great. USB is just not made for long runs since it require communication back and forth between the two devices.

    Excellent point guys.I like that idea.
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    Backup Rig-2 CH-Rogue Audio Zeus w/Factory Special Dark Mods,Joule-Electra 300ME Platinum Preamp,OPPO-105 w/Modwright Tube Mod, Auralic Aries G2.1,Polk 2.3TL,3.1TL's,Dreadnought,RTA-15TL's,1C's All Fully Modded,2xRTA-12c's ,Benchmark DAC3 HGC,Synology NAS,VPI Scout w/Dynavector DV-20XH and Rogue Audio Ares Phono Preamp,Sony PCM-R500 DAT,HHB-850 Pro CDR,Tascam CC-222SLMKII Cassette/CDR,MIT S3.3 Shotgun Cables,Shunyata Hyra-8,Shunyata and Triode Labs Power Cords

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