Can I bi amp using the front and rear pre amp outputs on my onkyo rc270?

slammin86
slammin86 Posts: 238
edited March 2011 in Electronics
I have an onkyo rc270. I am currently using the bi amp feature of the receiver using the internal amp. I want to get a 5 channel adcom amp and bi amp my fronts and run the center off of it. When my receiver is set to bi amp, does it output the same signals to the front and rear rca's that it does to the speaker cables?

I would prefer not to use rca splitters off of the front pre amp outputs to do this.
Receiver: ONKYO 709
Amplifier: Acurus A200x3
Front: EmpTek E55Ti
Center: EmpTek E56Ci
Surround: EmpTek E5Bi
Sub: Elemental Designs A5-350
TV: LG 55"
Blu-Ray: PS3
Post edited by slammin86 on

Comments

  • dnoyeB
    dnoyeB Posts: 114
    edited March 2011
    I don't think so. The channel data should remain true to the source.
    Music
    LR: Polk Monitor 70 (willing to sell if interested)
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    AVR: Sony STR-DE835
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,700
    edited March 2011
    Anyway you look at it, you are not really bi-amping as that requires separate amps with separate power supplies and external active crossovers. Hook up everything as normal and enjoy.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,068
    edited March 2011
    I agree with the man smoking his cigar, drinking his single malt, outside the Mars Hotel located close to the spot Christ dropped a shoe.

    We have plenty of threads covering bi-amping with receivers. Get your read on my man.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,700
    edited March 2011
    Hehe.....:biggrin:
    Political Correctness'.........defined

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  • slammin86
    slammin86 Posts: 238
    edited March 2011
    I ended up just going with a 3 channel amp for the fronts, so I did not have to mess with this.
    Receiver: ONKYO 709
    Amplifier: Acurus A200x3
    Front: EmpTek E55Ti
    Center: EmpTek E56Ci
    Surround: EmpTek E5Bi
    Sub: Elemental Designs A5-350
    TV: LG 55"
    Blu-Ray: PS3
  • dnoyeB
    dnoyeB Posts: 114
    edited March 2011
    I hate it when people say your not bi-amping without an external amplifier and a crossover. Its just not true. Sure, you can do more with a crossover and external amplifier. For those of us that have Receivers with 7 channel internal amplifiers and only intend to run 5 speakers, bi-amping is a nice way to push your mains without wasting the extra 2 channels you otherwise wouldn't use.

    If you insist that what we do is not bi-amping, what would you have us call it?

    FYI: I have an Onkyo 270.
    Music
    LR: Polk Monitor 70 (willing to sell if interested)
    C: Cerwin Vega E-75C
    Sub: HSU VTF-2 MK3
    AVR: Sony STR-DE835
    AMP:

    HT
    5.1: Paradigm CT110
    AVR: Integra DTR-4.6

    WTB: RTiA9 or RTi12
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,700
    edited March 2011
    Its just not true.
    Yes it is.

    http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/biamping.html
    If you insist that what we do is not bi-amping, what would you have us call it?

    Getting conned.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • polrbehr
    polrbehr Posts: 2,842
    edited March 2011
    damn, i was trying to post before you, Jesse, figured I'd tie the tourniquet nice and tight before someone died...:wink:

    In my simplest understanding on this subject, I believe people say you do not bi-amp with multi-channel capable AVRs because all you are doing is pulling power away from your primary (only?) source of current in the unit. So in reality, if you only use 5 of your available 7 channels, you are simply putting less demand on the PS.

    In my case, I used all 5 channels of a Denon AVR for quite awhile, then tried adding external amplification for the front channels only, using the pre-outs to feed an Adcom GFA555. Well, not only did the front channels really sound better, in actuality the center and surrounds sounded better as well, since the Denon was now only asked to power three channels instead of 5. So no, I do not feel like the power from the Denon is "wasted" at all; one of these days I'd like to try add a good 3ch or 5ch amp, and remove the amp section of the Denon alltogether.
    But I agree on not bothering with the bi-amping thing, even from a better power source like a 5 channel amp, use it how it was meant to be used.
    So, are you willing to put forth a little effort or are you happy sitting in your skeptical poo pile?


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  • Slinger182
    Slinger182 Posts: 512
    edited March 2011
    http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-sr608-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

    I couldn't find any test specs for the 270 but on the 608 you get 82.3 watts per channel when 5 channels are being driven. Drops down to 30.9 watts per channel when 7 channels are being driven. 61.8 watts doesn't really seem like it could push your speakers a whole lot.
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  • ProbeGT
    ProbeGT Posts: 16
    edited March 2011
    This doesn't really speak to the argument about whether bi-amping with a receiver is "real", but I'm convinced my A5s actually sound BETTER after un-biamping from my Onkyo 707.

    Next plan is to get a Rotel and bi-amp them for real.
    Onkyo TX-SR707 | RTi-A5s | CS20 Center | Monitor 30 Rears | HSU STF-2 Sub
  • slammin86
    slammin86 Posts: 238
    edited March 2011
    I can say that my acurus a200x3 really woke up these speakers. and I can tell you that the rear powers sound better now cause they are all the reciever has to drive.
    Receiver: ONKYO 709
    Amplifier: Acurus A200x3
    Front: EmpTek E55Ti
    Center: EmpTek E56Ci
    Surround: EmpTek E5Bi
    Sub: Elemental Designs A5-350
    TV: LG 55"
    Blu-Ray: PS3
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,700
    edited March 2011
    ProbeGT wrote: »
    Next plan is to get a Rotel and bi-amp them for real.

    Keep in mind that you will need two amps with matched gain levels. If your plan is to use the Onkyo with the Rotel, that isn't going to work out well as there's no way they are gain matched.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • ProbeGT
    ProbeGT Posts: 16
    edited March 2011
    I'm thinking in terms of either a five channel amp like a 985 where I would use four channels to bi-amp the fronts and the fifth for center; or a six-channel like a 956/976 bridged to 4 channels for just-bi-amping.

    My main issues are with how the A5s sound for music in two-channel mode, so that's the main motivator.
    Onkyo TX-SR707 | RTi-A5s | CS20 Center | Monitor 30 Rears | HSU STF-2 Sub
  • slammin86
    slammin86 Posts: 238
    edited March 2011
    Or look for a big 3 channel amp or a trio of monoblocks.
    Receiver: ONKYO 709
    Amplifier: Acurus A200x3
    Front: EmpTek E55Ti
    Center: EmpTek E56Ci
    Surround: EmpTek E5Bi
    Sub: Elemental Designs A5-350
    TV: LG 55"
    Blu-Ray: PS3
  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited March 2011
    Just run the 5 channel Adcom like you are suposed to. 1 channel per channel.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,700
    edited March 2011
    ProbeGT, that still isn't bi-amping.

    This is; completely separate gain matched amps and external active crossovers.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,068
    edited March 2011
    Must be the new hip thing to do, judging from the amount of threads on the same subject. Just goes to show how marketing can get you to do whatever they want.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
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    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

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  • ProbeGT
    ProbeGT Posts: 16
    edited March 2011
    Huh! Well I plead guilty. I must have read something about bi-amping (which I now know really isn't) when I first joined up here and was just taking it as a given that it was good. I DID know that using an AVR to do it was fake . . .

    Seems like the smart and cost effective thing for me would be to just buy a 2-channel amp from my fronts.
    Onkyo TX-SR707 | RTi-A5s | CS20 Center | Monitor 30 Rears | HSU STF-2 Sub
  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited March 2011
    Yep, or go 3 or 5 channel.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,689
    edited March 2011
    I am doing what you suggested with your 5 channel amp and did see some gains IMHO however not sure how much of it was due to the placebo effect, and they were not night and day (and its a PITA to wire lol).

    I plan to do some listening this weekend to it wired with 2 channels per front, bi-wired and wired with 5 interconnects (using the built in bi-amp stuff in the Integra).
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
  • comfortablycurt
    comfortablycurt Posts: 6,745
    edited March 2011
    dnoyeB wrote: »
    I hate it when people say your not bi-amping without an external amplifier and a crossover. Its just not true. Sure, you can do more with a crossover and external amplifier. For those of us that have Receivers with 7 channel internal amplifiers and only intend to run 5 speakers, bi-amping is a nice way to push your mains without wasting the extra 2 channels you otherwise wouldn't use.

    If you insist that what we do is not bi-amping, what would you have us call it?

    FYI: I have an Onkyo 270.

    I've posted on this topic more times than I could possibly count, but this post is entirely incorrect.

    With the exception of the very few receivers that have dedicated monoblocks for each amp channel, AVR bi-amping would be more accurately described as bi-wiring.

    Consider the fact that most AVR's power rating is rated with 2(or even a just 1) channels driven at a time. Suppose that the AVR's maximum power output is 100wpc with 2 channels driven. That power rating goes down as more channels are added to the equation.

    Knowing this, how is the amp going to suddenly be able to produce twice as much power because a speaker is hooked up to two pairs of outputs? It can't. It's maximum output is 100wpc x 2 channels. Connecting those same two speakers to an additional two outputs is going to make no difference. The two speakers will still be receiving the exact same amount of wattage as they were before.

    So...I do insist that what you're doing is not bi-amping(despite what your owners manual might say), and I suggest that you should call it bi-wiring.

    For the record...yes, I have tried bi-"amping" with my Onkyo TX-SR606, as well as played around with it on a couple different AVR's at friends houses. In not a single instance did I find there to be a single iota of a difference in sound quality, nor have the vast majority of people I've talked to that have tried it. It's a waste of time and money. You're far better off upgrading the jumpers on your speakers, and investing in a decent pair of speaker cables.
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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited March 2011
    tonyb wrote: »
    We have plenty of threads covering bi-amping with receivers. Get your read on my man.

    True, but every one of them is wrong...
    More later,
    Tour...
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