Need info about tube amps

tavogee
tavogee Posts: 91
edited February 2011 in Electronics
First of all to avoid drama and humiliation, I can proudly say I am not very knowledgeable about systems, so as dumb as some of my questions seem I am in fact being very honest. If anyone can help me I do appreciate it very much. Anyway, I am confused on the tube amp scene. I have read of other amps such as the emotiva XPA series. I pretty much (basically) understand there purpose, but am uneducated on tube amps. I have read they are the way to go but I am not aware of why. For example if I used a 200wpc emotiva amp, would there be an advantage (better sound quality) with a tube amp. Also, would the tube amp have to be rated at the same 200wpc to sound good. Sorry for being so stupid but one day I will understand and help others thanks.
LIVING ROOM: Onkyo TX-NR808 Receiver | Emotiva XPA-5 Amplifier | Polk Dsw Pro 660wi Subwoofer | Polk RTi A9 Fronts | Polk CSi A6 Center | Polk FXi A6 Surrounds [5.1 Channel Setup]
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  • michaeljhsda2
    michaeljhsda2 Posts: 2,200
    edited February 2011
    My tube amps sound great to me and they have all the power I need. Here's the latest amp I bought.

    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1283685

    Pretty good bang for the buck. You will be shocked at how good it sounds.
    SDA SRS 2.3TL's
    Silk Audio MS-90-BT integrated tube amp
    Yaqin MS-20L integrated tube amp
    SDA 2B TL's
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  • tavogee
    tavogee Posts: 91
    edited February 2011
    So what's the difference?
    LIVING ROOM: Onkyo TX-NR808 Receiver | Emotiva XPA-5 Amplifier | Polk Dsw Pro 660wi Subwoofer | Polk RTi A9 Fronts | Polk CSi A6 Center | Polk FXi A6 Surrounds [5.1 Channel Setup]
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited February 2011
    Tube amps are a choice for many here coz most of the folks here probably grow up with one kind of tube amp or Tube related gear in their backyard and they prefer how it sounds.

    And some folks like the idea of rolling tubes to change the sound to their liking. Or some folks simply like the idea of Tubes.

    You need to hear both the tube amp and the transistor based (solid state) amps and decide what you like. There is no simple answer to what is better for you.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • michaeljhsda2
    michaeljhsda2 Posts: 2,200
    edited February 2011
    tavogee wrote: »
    So what's the difference?

    It has tubes in it.
    SDA SRS 2.3TL's
    Silk Audio MS-90-BT integrated tube amp
    Yaqin MS-20L integrated tube amp
    SDA 2B TL's
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  • vc69
    vc69 Posts: 2,500
    edited February 2011
    I like tubes because I like the fluid midrange and silky high end sparkle I get with my rig. That is not to say that it isn't possible to get that from SS gears, it's just to say that I have found a sound I like very much with what I have and I have tubes.
    -Kevin
    HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
    2 Channel:
    Oppo BDP-83 SE
    Squeezebox Touch
    Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC
    VTL 2.5
    McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
    B&W 801's
    Transparent IC's
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  • tavogee
    tavogee Posts: 91
    edited February 2011
    So, would I connect my receiver to the tube amp in the same manner as I would connect an emotiva XPA amp. What I mean by this is preouts of the receiver to the inputs of the tube amp via rca cables, and connect the speakers from the tube amp speaker outputs? I know this sounds dumb, but I really don,t know.
    LIVING ROOM: Onkyo TX-NR808 Receiver | Emotiva XPA-5 Amplifier | Polk Dsw Pro 660wi Subwoofer | Polk RTi A9 Fronts | Polk CSi A6 Center | Polk FXi A6 Surrounds [5.1 Channel Setup]
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  • tavogee
    tavogee Posts: 91
    edited February 2011
    Vc69, What are you reffering to when you say "SS GEARS"?
    LIVING ROOM: Onkyo TX-NR808 Receiver | Emotiva XPA-5 Amplifier | Polk Dsw Pro 660wi Subwoofer | Polk RTi A9 Fronts | Polk CSi A6 Center | Polk FXi A6 Surrounds [5.1 Channel Setup]
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  • tavogee
    tavogee Posts: 91
    edited February 2011
    i think you meant "solid state"
    LIVING ROOM: Onkyo TX-NR808 Receiver | Emotiva XPA-5 Amplifier | Polk Dsw Pro 660wi Subwoofer | Polk RTi A9 Fronts | Polk CSi A6 Center | Polk FXi A6 Surrounds [5.1 Channel Setup]
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 26,973
    edited February 2011
    tavogee wrote: »
    i think you meant "solid state"


    BINGO we have a winner :biggrin:
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  • tavogee
    tavogee Posts: 91
    edited February 2011
    Which One Was A BINGO?
    LIVING ROOM: Onkyo TX-NR808 Receiver | Emotiva XPA-5 Amplifier | Polk Dsw Pro 660wi Subwoofer | Polk RTi A9 Fronts | Polk CSi A6 Center | Polk FXi A6 Surrounds [5.1 Channel Setup]
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  • vc69
    vc69 Posts: 2,500
    edited February 2011
    SS = solid state

    gears = whatever equipment you are using. I just love it when Mega uses the word "gears".
    tavogee wrote: »
    So, would I connect my receiver to the tube amp in the same manner as I would connect an emotiva XPA amp. What I mean by this is preouts of the receiver to the inputs of the tube amp via rca cables, and connect the speakers from the tube amp speaker outputs? I know this sounds dumb, but I really don,t know.

    Pretty much. Though I am not fond of using a receiver as a preamp with the exception of HT applications. And in that case, I would probably not use a tube amp.
    -Kevin
    HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
    2 Channel:
    Oppo BDP-83 SE
    Squeezebox Touch
    Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC
    VTL 2.5
    McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
    B&W 801's
    Transparent IC's
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  • tavogee
    tavogee Posts: 91
    edited February 2011
    So would the tube amp have the same inputs/outputs as an emotiva type amp?
    LIVING ROOM: Onkyo TX-NR808 Receiver | Emotiva XPA-5 Amplifier | Polk Dsw Pro 660wi Subwoofer | Polk RTi A9 Fronts | Polk CSi A6 Center | Polk FXi A6 Surrounds [5.1 Channel Setup]
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,545
    edited February 2011
    Tube circuits distort in even harmonics, said to be pleasing to the ear; where solid state distortion harmonics are odd. When pushed to clipping, tube circuits "soft clip" where solid state clips very hard and drastically. This why the percieved increase in power with tubes--they are really "hiding" the distortion in a pleasing manner.

    These same design parameters make for the "tube" sound at lower levels. Fluid midrange, very realistic vocals, lots of spatial cues.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Source: Rotel CD14MkII CD Player - Speakers: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • tavogee
    tavogee Posts: 91
    edited February 2011
    I was going to buy a receiver, speakers and turntable. I will only be using for music, but want it to have power. Would I need a sub also?
    LIVING ROOM: Onkyo TX-NR808 Receiver | Emotiva XPA-5 Amplifier | Polk Dsw Pro 660wi Subwoofer | Polk RTi A9 Fronts | Polk CSi A6 Center | Polk FXi A6 Surrounds [5.1 Channel Setup]
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  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited February 2011
    tavogee wrote: »
    I was going to buy a receiver, speakers and turntable. I will only be using for music, but want it to have power. Would I need a sub also?

    Here is what I propose you do.

    Start a thread with Subject - Help me build a music system.

    I want (insert number of channels 2, 5 or 7) system to listem to music.

    My room is x cubic feet (hxlxw) (this will help dtermine what sub to get if you need one

    I need (list equipment)

    I have a budget of $?????
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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  • dragon1952
    dragon1952 Posts: 4,907
    edited February 2011
    tavogee wrote: »
    I was going to buy a receiver, speakers and turntable. I will only be using for music, but want it to have power. Would I need a sub also?

    If it's just for music don't buy a receiver. Get separates or at minimum an integrated amp. If you need/want the radio get a tuner.
    2 channel - Willsenton R8 tube integrated, Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC, audio optimized NUC7i5, Windows 10 Pro/JRiver MC29/Fidelizer Plus 8.7 w/LPS and external SSD drive, PS Audio PerfectWave P3 regenerator, KEF R3 speakers, Rythmik F12SE subwoofer, Audioquest Diamond USB cable, Gabriel Gold IC's, Morrow Audio SP5 speaker cables. Computer - Windows 10/JRiver, Schiit Magni 3+/Modi 3+, Fostex PMO.4n monitors, Sennheiser HD600 headphones
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 34,938
    edited February 2011
    steveinaz wrote: »
    Tube circuits distort in even harmonics, said to be pleasing to the ear; where solid state distortion harmonics are odd. When pushed to clipping, tube circuits "soft clip" where solid state clips very hard and drastically. This why the perceived increase in power with tubes--they are really "hiding" the distortion in a pleasing manner.

    These same design parameters make for the "tube" sound at lower levels. Fluid midrange, very realistic vocals, lots of spatial cues.

    No, no, no. Single-ended amps don't cancel out even-order harmonics; push-pull amps do. It has nothing to do with tube or solid state output devices.

    The "soft clipping" is, relatively speaking, true.
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,502
    edited February 2011
    Lasareath wrote: »
    . . . What kind of speakers do you have?

    I was wondering that too.

    Some speakers can get by with a tiny amount of tube power and fill a room with great sound.
    VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
    TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
    Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
    Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
    MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
    Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
    PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
    Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
    NAD SS rigs w/mods
    GIK panels
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  • tavogee
    tavogee Posts: 91
    edited February 2011
    would tower speakers such as RTI A9's be good for a setup with a tube amp, if so what wattage on the amp would I be shopping for?
    LIVING ROOM: Onkyo TX-NR808 Receiver | Emotiva XPA-5 Amplifier | Polk Dsw Pro 660wi Subwoofer | Polk RTi A9 Fronts | Polk CSi A6 Center | Polk FXi A6 Surrounds [5.1 Channel Setup]
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  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited February 2011
    I am out on this one
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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  • halo71
    halo71 Posts: 4,630
    edited February 2011
    tavogee wrote: »
    would tower speakers such as RTI A9's be good for a setup with a tube amp, if so what wattage on the amp would I be shopping for?

    Pardon me for saying....but. With your limited understanding of home audio in general. And complete lack of understanding of tube amps. I would recommend going with some type of receiver, or a solid state preamp and power amp. Of course all depending on what you have right now.

    Several people have already asked you, in this thread and the other one, what you have now. Why not answer this question?
    --Gary--
    Onkyo Integra M504, Bottlehead Foreplay III, Denon SACD, Thiel CS2.3, NHT VT-2, VT-3 and Evolution T6, Infinity RSIIIa, SDA1C and a few dozen other speakers around the house I change in and out.
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,069
    edited February 2011
    I would also say that being as new as you are to audio in general, a tube amp may not be a good way to start off. They can be more finicky, proper handling of tubes,biasing, etc. The rti 9's, if you go that series, would match up well with a ss amp on the warmer side like a Nad, B&k. Also your source for music will play a big part in what you hear. That 1980's JVC cdp won't do you any favors. Just an example. Get a budget together, list what you have already, and we can better guide you to some good sound.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,545
    edited February 2011
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    No, no, no. Single-ended amps don't cancel out even-order harmonics; push-pull amps do. It has nothing to do with tube or solid state output devices.

    The "soft clipping" is, relatively speaking, true.

    I learn something new everyday. 10-4.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Source: Rotel CD14MkII CD Player - Speakers: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 34,938
    edited February 2011
    You betcha; sorry if I sounded testy last night (long day yesterday)!
    Unfortunately the odd/even harmonic distortion thing is conflated in a lot of folks' minds with the tube/soiled state (ahem, solid state) thing. Not quite sure why.

    I like this blurb on the subject, FWIW: http://www.aikenamps.com/SingleEnded.htm
    It's written around vacuum tube output stages (and from a guitar amp perspective, at that!) but it's pretty to the point.

    I think the best way to look at this issue at large is that harmonic distortion per se isn't the cause of unpleasant sound. Odd-order distortion even at fairly low levels is unpleasant (think solid state amp driven to hard clipping, or a transistor radio with a weak battery); even-order distortion at even fairly high levels is euphonious and pleasant sounding (the second harmonic of a fundamental is exactly an octave higher than the fundamental). Bottom line- except in fairly extreme cases, harmonic distortion isn't a good measure of the quality of amplified sound. It is a pretty good measure of the onset of amplifier nonlinearity (especially for solid state amps, which tend to "brick wall" when they hit the limits of their DC supply rails and go from very low THD to harmonic-rich, square-wave-like waveform reprodiction).

    Note that I am not saying that, e.g., a single-ended Class A amplifier outputting 5% of second order harmonic distortion is accurate... but it probably won't sound bad! Conversely, a push-pull amp with 0.5% of the third or fifth harmonic will probably sound pretty unpleasant.
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,545
    edited February 2011
    Is it safe to say that Single ended designs are more sought after by audiophiles?

    Would single-ended SS render a more tubey sound?
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Source: Rotel CD14MkII CD Player - Speakers: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • tavogee
    tavogee Posts: 91
    edited February 2011
    I had heard that chinese built tube amps are better, I always stayed away from stuff made in china. What makes there tube amps any different?
    LIVING ROOM: Onkyo TX-NR808 Receiver | Emotiva XPA-5 Amplifier | Polk Dsw Pro 660wi Subwoofer | Polk RTi A9 Fronts | Polk CSi A6 Center | Polk FXi A6 Surrounds [5.1 Channel Setup]
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  • halo71
    halo71 Posts: 4,630
    edited February 2011
    tavogee wrote: »
    I had heard that chinese built tube amps are better, I always stayed away from stuff made in china. What makes there tube amps any different?

    lol....really? Does your browser not support Google?? You don't read much do ya?
    --Gary--
    Onkyo Integra M504, Bottlehead Foreplay III, Denon SACD, Thiel CS2.3, NHT VT-2, VT-3 and Evolution T6, Infinity RSIIIa, SDA1C and a few dozen other speakers around the house I change in and out.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 34,938
    edited February 2011
    steveinaz wrote: »
    Is it safe to say that Single ended designs are more sought after by audiophiles?

    Would single-ended SS render a more tubey sound?

    in general, no and no, respectively.
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  • dragon1952
    dragon1952 Posts: 4,907
    edited February 2011
    Ming Da (Meixing) is a Chinese company that makes excellent tube amps. You can usually get more for your money due to the lower manufacturing costs there. Doesn't Jolida manufacture in China?
    2 channel - Willsenton R8 tube integrated, Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC, audio optimized NUC7i5, Windows 10 Pro/JRiver MC29/Fidelizer Plus 8.7 w/LPS and external SSD drive, PS Audio PerfectWave P3 regenerator, KEF R3 speakers, Rythmik F12SE subwoofer, Audioquest Diamond USB cable, Gabriel Gold IC's, Morrow Audio SP5 speaker cables. Computer - Windows 10/JRiver, Schiit Magni 3+/Modi 3+, Fostex PMO.4n monitors, Sennheiser HD600 headphones
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 34,938
    edited February 2011
    Not only does JoLida manufacture in China... there's currently considerable intrigue between two "JoLidas". I think there's been chatter about this topic at this site; there definitely has at AK. It's pretty ugly (excuse the oxymoron).
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