Warm, bright or neutral?
B Run
Posts: 1,888
I was curious what has the biggest effect on the overall sound of my system. I have Rti speakers which are considered bright, and a Yamaha receiver which is also considered bright.
My question is if I add a separate amp (a warmer sounding one) and keep my receiver will it help? Does the tone have more to do with with amp, receiver, speakers or is it a combination of all 3? I didn't know if it was as simple as warm amp + bright speakers = neutral overall sound, or if it's much more complicated than that. If not i'm leaning more toward a Harman Kardon or Marantz because I know that will work. Any input is appreciated since I know nothing about running an separate amp.
My question is if I add a separate amp (a warmer sounding one) and keep my receiver will it help? Does the tone have more to do with with amp, receiver, speakers or is it a combination of all 3? I didn't know if it was as simple as warm amp + bright speakers = neutral overall sound, or if it's much more complicated than that. If not i'm leaning more toward a Harman Kardon or Marantz because I know that will work. Any input is appreciated since I know nothing about running an separate amp.
Post edited by B Run on
Comments
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Amp and speakers
I added a tube amp to my rti8 and it is very warm but its perfect for the bright rti
Brightness is awsome for movies at a moderate volume
The yamaha is a bright pre pro so its always gona be bright no matter what amp and speaker combo I think ....unless you add a tube buffer for music then it will sound more balanced for music
Keiko has some kinda tube buffer thingy with his yamaha and he loves it -
polkfarmboy wrote: »Amp and speakers
Brightness is awsome for movies at a moderate volume
it
Yeah I loved my Yamaha with my monitor 60's especially at high volume, but that's a good way to put it. I don't enjoy cranking the Rti's because they sound harsh but they sound very clear and detailed and low-moderate volume. I was just wondering if I added a warm sounding amp if i would only hear the warm characteristics of the amp or if the yamaha sound would get passed through to the amp and speakers? -
My rti8 sound super warm and realy balanced with my tube amp I bought and the bass is slamin .......very easy on the ears now and sound like diff speakers
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I know aboulutely NOTHING about tube amps, haha here goes another week of my life reading online. Do you have anything you recomend for a 5 channel home theater setup? Are tubes good for movies as well as music, I always thought they were more for 2 channel music setups? Can I still use my Yamaha as a pre? Sorry for all the questions i'm just trying to figure out my next move.
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I know aboulutely NOTHING about tube amps, haha here goes another week of my life reading online. Do you have anything you recomend for a 5 channel home theater setup? Are tubes good for movies as well as music? Can I still use my Yamaha as a pre? Sorry for all the questions i'm just trying to figure out my next move.
If the Yammie has preouts, course you can.
Some have used tubes for HT, I've heard a few setups myself and it sounded great.Truck setup
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I have always been given the impression that tubes realy sucked for movies
I put a dvd through my tube integrated and the sound was too laid back for action
I am now finding out that its the SLEW rate that makes the tube amp slower to respond than a solid state -
polkfarmboy wrote: »I have always been given the impression that tubes realy sucked for movies
Who gave you that impression? Tubes might be a waste for HT as HT sound is no where near as critical as it is for music.I put a dvd through my tube integrated and the sound was too laid back for action
I think you should try it for a week or two, then go back to whatever you were using before. You might find that what you think is too laid back is actually more real.I am now finding out that its the SLEW rate that makes the tube amp slower to respond than a solid state
Funny, none of my tube gear sounds slower than my SS gear.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Tubes are not slow. I agree with F1 that they are wasted in a way on movies just because the critical part of it is usually speech or an explosion. But for critical music listening a nice warm tube sound is awesome.
Why would Guitarists and Bass players still use them today if they didn't have that just right sound??
If they use Tubes to make the sound why wouldn't you want to use them to recreate it? -
Adding my Parasound AMP to my speakers put them just about where I like on the warm - bright scale. I tried out newer Adcom amps prior to the Parasound and didn't like the combo, but to each his own.
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Tubes are not slow. I agree with F1 that they are wasted in a way on movies just because the critical part of it is usually speech or an explosion. But for critical music listening a nice warm tube sound is awesome.
Why would Guitarists and Bass players still use them today if they didn't have that just right sound??
If they use Tubes to make the sound why wouldn't you want to use them to recreate it?
Seems like your saying all critical music listening has guitars and bass
What about rap or trance.trip hop etc...? tubes are sloppy for that kind of stuff
I stand firm in saying tubes suck for movies but I agree some old people who cant hear properly may like tubes for movies:D
Why isnt there alot of 3 channel tube amps or 7 channels if they were good for movies -
Adding my Parasound AMP to my speakers put them just about where I like on the warm - bright scale. I tried out newer Adcom amps prior to the Parasound and didn't like the combo, but to each his own.
I was thinking more along the lines of a Parasound or something similar instead of tubes from the beginning. I just wanted to make sure it was the AMP that changed the sound characteristic not the Receiver if I still used it as a pre. So even with the yamaha as a pre, it would add a warmer sound with a parasound amp? So in contrast even if I had a warm receiver like harman kardon or marantz and used an emotiva amp it would then sound bright? Sorry for all the questions just trying to make sure I go the best route. Thanks for all the help. -
I was thinking more along the lines of a Parasound or something similar instead of tubes from the beginning. I just wanted to make sure it was the AMP that changed the sound characteristic not the Receiver if I still used it as a pre. So even with the yamaha as a pre, it would add a warmer sound with a parasound amp? So in contrast even if I had a warm receiver like harman kardon or marantz and used an emotiva amp it would then sound bright? Sorry for all the questions just trying to make sure I go the best route. Thanks for all the help.
I think you are right but a good amp should not change sound to warm or bright -
polkfarmboy wrote: »
I am now finding out that its the SLEW rate that makes the tube amp slower to respond than a solid state
The difference in measured slew rate is inconsequential. How did you "find" this out? I'm curious?
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul! -
Polkfarmboy
Read this article, it's older, but hits the nail on the head. Especially pages 3 and 4 about slew rate.
http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/1191pass/index.html"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul! -
polkfarmboy wrote: »I think you are right but a good amp should not change sound to warm or bright
Everything in the chain matters so it's not just up to the amp to set the rig's signature sound. Everyone comes along asking about a singular solution to "fix" their rig. It's not about changing just one thing, many times, it's a matter of finding gear that works well together and has synergy to reproduce the sound characteristics you prefer.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul! -
polkfarmboy wrote: »Seems like your saying all critical music listening has guitars and bass
What about rap or trance.trip hop etc...? tubes are sloppy for that kind of stuff
I stand firm in saying tubes suck for movies but I agree some old people who cant hear properly may like tubes for movies:D
Why isnt there alot of 3 channel tube amps or 7 channels if they were good for movies
You have a lot to learn, so you are in the right place.
Lesson 1. Tubes are not sloppy, period. Hell, I've heard tube gear that sounded more SS then SS gear.
Lesson 2. Tube amps (except OTL designs) require large output transformers. You cannot reasonably build a tube amp that has 3, 5 or 7 channels.
Lesson 3. Rap, trance or hip hop is not music.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Everything in the chain matters so it's not just up to the amp to set the rig's signature sound. Everyone comes along asking about a singular solution to "fix" their rig. It's not about changing just one thing, many times, it's a matter of finding gear that works well together and has synergy to reproduce the sound characteristics you prefer.
H9
This is the most important lesson one could possibly learn about all things audio. Bravo!Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I just wanted to make sure it was the AMP that changed the sound characteristic not the Receiver if I still used it as a pre. So even with the yamaha as a pre, it would add a warmer sound with a parasound amp? .
The pre-amp many times is as important or more important than the amp. Adding an amp to the current receiver may or may not change the sound a great degree.
So as not to completely discourage the OP, try running an external amp, in most cases it's an improvement. But just be aware you shouldn't stop there. This hobby is about experimenting and learning what you like and don't like. You have to start somewhere and adding an external amp is a good starting point. There are no quick fixes or quick answers. Many of us have taken years to gain the knowledge and experience.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul! -
Ok, well then I think I'm just going to sell my yamaha and get the Harman Kardon 3600 and be done with it. I know it has the sound I'm looking for and when I do go to add an amp later it'll be one less thing to worry about. Thanks so much for the help guys.
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Ok, well then I think I'm just going to sell my yamaha and get the Harman Kardon 3600 and be done with it. I know it has the sound I'm looking for and when I do go to add an amp later it'll be one less thing to worry about. Thanks so much for the help guys.
I prefer the HK house sound to the Yammy house sound, but just because you get the HK doesn't mean all the above posted responses don't apply. Anytime you use a receiver as a pre there is a compromise of sorts. Experimentation is key.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul! -
Am I really the first person in this thread to mention room treatments for taming brightness? In my HT setup I'm using a Yamaha receiver with RTiA7's up front with a CSi40 center and it was a little bright until I added some panels on the walls. Now everything sounds just right. They helped a lot with the two channel rig as well. Bare walls with hard floors usually equals bright room.SDA-1C (full mods)
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I was curious what has the biggest effect on the overall sound of my system. I have Rti speakers which are considered bright, and a Yamaha receiver which is also considered bright.
My question is if I add a separate amp (a warmer sounding one) and keep my receiver will it help? Does the tone have more to do with with amp, receiver, speakers or is it a combination of all 3? I didn't know if it was as simple as warm amp + bright speakers = neutral overall sound, or if it's much more complicated than that. If not i'm leaning more toward a Harman Kardon or Marantz because I know that will work. Any input is appreciated since I know nothing about running an separate amp.
IMO, subtle differences in amps, sources, is gonna be too subtle to make much (if any) difference. Start with the choice of speaker. Speaker differences are far more apparent than components. There are things you can do to help; room treatments, making sure grills are on, speaker placement tweaks, etc--but this will only help so much.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Source: Rotel CD14MkII CD Player - Speakers: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
My theater room has all carpet, suede couches and curtains covering most of the walls so I think it does a good job of taming down brightness. I think for now the HK will give me the sound I want, and then in the next few months when I add an amp it will be what I'm looking for.
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IMO, subtle differences in amps, sources, is gonna be too subtle to make much (if any) difference. Start with the choice of speaker. Speaker differences are far more apparent than components. There are things you can do to help; room treatments, making sure grills are on, speaker placement tweaks, etc--but this will only help so much.
You make a good point, I realize it has a lot to do with the speakers themselves. I was happy with my Yamaha and monitors paired together but since I replaced the monitors with rti's I can't stand them at high volume. I usually crank up movies and music when I listen but it doesn't sound good to me anymore and I just assumed it's because of my receiver and maybe lack of separate amplification for the rti's. They sound crystal clear at low-moderate but I turned down an opportunity to show off my system the other day because I didn't even want to crank it up and I'm not happy with where it's at right now. -
On the flip side, better speakers show flaws in lesser gear. Maybe that's waht could be going on too.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul! -
polkfarmboy wrote: »What about rap or trance.trip hop etc...? tubes are sloppy for that kind of stuff
I stand firm in saying tubes suck for movies but I agree some old people who cant hear properly may like tubes for movies:D
Rap/trance/hip hop isn't something I think anyone would listen to 'critically'
You obviously haven't heard an HT setup utilizing tubes. I have, and it sounded pretty damn good. Oh and btw, I'm only 25 so do trust my hearing is pretty damn good.You have a lot to learn, so you are in the right place.
Lesson 1. Tubes are not sloppy, period. Hell, I've heard tube gear that sounded more SS then SS gear.
Lesson 2. Tube amps (except OTL designs) require large output transformers. You cannot reasonably build a tube amp that has 3, 5 or 7 channels.
Lesson 3. Rap, trance or hip hop is not music.
Lol +1 on Lesson 3.Truck setup
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Ok going to hijack my own thread since it's an electronics question. Just got a monster power hts 2600 today, and am trying to figure out where to plug in my receiver. Should I use isolated high current audio or isolated analog audio? High current says "amp & spare" analog says "receiver & processor". So judging from the stickers I should go analog but I wanted to see if high current would be better since I'm not running an amp?
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Ok going to hijack my own thread since it's an electronics question. Just got a monster power hts 2600 today, and am trying to figure out where to plug in my receiver. Should I use isolated high current audio or isolated analog audio? High current says "amp & spare" analog says "receiver & processor". So judging from the stickers I should go analog but I wanted to see if high current would be better since I'm not running an amp?
On a few power conditioners, I've plugged it into the Spare while on others I plugged it into the Receiver/Processor.
Never heard a difference, though I always had an amp hooked up to it.Truck setup
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That's what I figured, I'll just follow the stickers.
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Synergy is a Bxxxx! While the suggestions above are great...you could spend a lot of time and tons of money trying to find it? Whereas you pretty much know already that the HK or Marantz will tone down those Rtis. But it's a hobby after all. Just depends on how much you want to chase the car!
I've run Rti bookshelves on an HK receiver and that certainly helps them. Is it 'ideal'...well..of course separates and the elusive search for synergy says no. And I
'do' agree with that.
Good Luck!
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